Tongues & the cessationists.

Alithis

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In Almost all (if not all) threads on this topic it will invariably come down to the claim (usually spoken irreverantly) that Tongues today are just babble and not tongues at all.

The same argument will be used repeatedly to shore up this unwise claim.
The cessationist will say
"In acts when they spoke in tongues it was an intelligible language that others can understand.
And if its not- its not real tongues.

[ In this post i first want to state -Tongues are Not a validation of rightouesness .i.e. Not everyone who speaks in tongues automatically goes to heaven . ]

Now.....
To make this claim many words in Pauls letters are fully ignored .

E.g - he states there are a diversity of tongues . there are more then only one "type " of tongues. He is not speaking about different languages but different types of language.
In the nateral a language is the means of communicating between two or more parties.
(Sign language's is a language which doesnt use the tongue.)

To cut to the point...
This claim that if it is not an intelligible language its not tongues of the holy spirit is Fully refuted BY SCRIPTURE well Before cessationists made the claim.

Its simply this.. In his explanations and instructions around the topic of tongues and prophecy Paul makes an astounding statement.

....For he that speaketh in an
[unknown] tongue speaketh
not unto men, but unto God:
for no man understandeth
[him]; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries..... 1 Corinth 14 v2..

Now i have left the parenthesis In on purpose. They are not in the greek but added -for transliteration .

But what IS in the greek i will now HIGHLIGHT in bold red.

.....For he that speaketh in an
[unknown] tongue speaketh
not unto men, but unto God:
for no man understandeth
[him]; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries....

For me .this ENDS any cessationist argument saying if its not a humanly intelligible language its not real tongues.

In Fact.. When one is talking to GOD ( not men) if men could understand it. It would not be real tongues.
For he tHat speaks in tongues does not speak to Men ...but to God and NO MAN UNDERSTANDS..
 
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Alithis

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..iv repeated this post here to encourage people who love the lord Jesus and speak in tongues .
Because at times there is a barrage of unbelief thrown at you and it is the simplicity of scripture where we find truth .
Not in disecting it in meaningless ambiguity.

Child like faith is still a requisite in the kingdom of God.

In the verse shown i have not had to take it out of its context.
I have not had too add to it.
I have not had to subtract from it.
I have not had to reference any external scource or opinion or interpretation.

Iv just presented the text.

It is wonderfully encouraging :) and edifying.
Keep praying in tongues people.
And make sure our lives are increasingly obedient to the spirit of God in Christ Jesus
 
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SkyWriting

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In Almost all (if not all) threads on this topic it will invariably come down to the claim...

Not to scripture?

1 Corinthians 14:27-28
If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
 
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Alithis

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Not to scripture?

1 Corinthians 14:27-28
If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
You will note..i said ...." Within pauls instructions around tongues and prophecy..which he gave Only in regard to a gathering... He makes that statement. As quoted in the OP.

He also says there a a diversity of types (breeds species) of tongues..
One of those types speaks Not to man but to God....
A spiritual language between man and God made possible by the Holy Spirit.
A language no man understands ..

Now iv already heard a mountain of ambiguous waffle dissecting the words down in attempt to deflect thier meaning .
But here that will be considered off topic .
In this forum we DO believe in the gifts of God and theres is NO scripture stating they have ceased.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I have seen evidence of at least three different tongue gifts...

One is for personal edification and some mistakenly use this in church and of course there is no interpretation. This leads to confusion.

Two is the gift that is interpreted and this is for a sign to unbelievers who may be in attendance.

Three is a tongue of rebuke that assists spiritual warfare. Sometime I awake speaking sternly in a tongue I have never heard before, and oppression lifts...

Tongues is a precious gift.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
 
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Alithis

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I have seen evidence of at least three different tongue gifts...

One is for personal edification and some mistakenly use this in church and of course there is no interpretation. This leads to confusion.

Two is the gift that is interpreted and this is for a sign to unbelievers who may be in attendance.

Three is a tongue of rebuke that assists spiritual warfare. Sometime I awake speaking sternly in a tongue I have never heard before, and oppression lifts...

Tongues is a precious gift.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.
Yes
And we have also experienced interpretation of tongues.. In which the believer suddenly understood the language of the unbeliever
And this was a sign to them . It opened the door to pray for sick and share the Gospel in that place.
 
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Sabertooth

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In Almost all (if not all) threads on this topic it will invariably come down to the claim (usually spoken irreverantly) that Tongues today are just babble and not tongues at all.
That argument isn't allowed in this sub-forum. Just hit the "Report" button in that case.
 
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..iv repeated this post here to encourage people who love the lord Jesus and speak in tongues .
Because at times there is a barrage of unbelief thrown at you and it is the simplicity of scripture where we find truth .
Not in disecting it in meaningless ambiguity.

Child like faith is still a requisite in the kingdom of God.

In the verse shown i have not had to take it out of its context.
I have not had too add to it.
I have not had to subtract from it.
I have not had to reference any external scource or opinion or interpretation.

Iv just presented the text.

It is wonderfully encouraging :) and edifying.
Keep praying in tongues people.
And make sure our lives are increasingly obedient to the spirit of God in Christ Jesus
The Scripture says "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, rather that you may prophesy" (1 Corinthians 14:1). This is a command and not a recommendation. Those who do not desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, through incorrect teaching, are actually disobeying the Scripture. Because the instruction to desire spiritual gifts is in the same phrase as pursuing love, then those who are in error are saying they obey the first half of the verse, but they refuse to obey the second half!

Disobedience to a clear instruction in Scripture is a sin which needs to be repented of. Unrepented sin leads a person to hell and not to heaven. Also, if a church leader has unrepented sin, he can grieve the Holy Spirit, cause Him to withdraw and open the church to demonic infiltration.

Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, "Covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak in tongues". Refusing the prophetic gift and tongues in their church by teaching that it is false is a clear violation of a Scriptural instruction inspired by the Holy Spirit. A leader or teacher who says that he is teaching in the Holy Spirit, and is disobeying Spirit-inspired Scripture has to be a false teacher, because the Holy Spirit never supports anyone who blatantly disobeys the Word of God.
 
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Alithis

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The Scripture says "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, rather that you may prophesy" (1 Corinthians 14:1). This is a command and not a recommendation. Those who do not desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, through incorrect teaching, are actually disobeying the Scripture. Because the instruction to desire spiritual gifts is in the same phrase as pursuing love, then those who are in error are saying they obey the first half of the verse, but they refuse to obey the second half!

Disobedience to a clear instruction in Scripture is a sin which needs to be repented of. Unrepented sin leads a person to hell and not to heaven. Also, if a church leader has unrepented sin, he can grieve the Holy Spirit, cause Him to withdraw and open the church to demonic infiltration.

Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, "Covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak in tongues". Refusing the prophetic gift and tongues in their church by teaching that it is false is a clear violation of a Scriptural instruction inspired by the Holy Spirit. A leader or teacher who says that he is teaching in the Holy Spirit, and is disobeying Spirit-inspired Scripture has to be a false teacher, because the Holy Spirit never supports anyone who blatantly disobeys the Word of God.
But now in essence your agreeing with the post i made elswhere warning exactly that!
 
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I have seen evidence of at least three different tongue gifts...

One is for personal edification and some mistakenly use this in church and of course there is no interpretation. This leads to confusion.

Two is the gift that is interpreted and this is for a sign to unbelievers who may be in attendance.

Three is a tongue of rebuke that assists spiritual warfare. Sometime I awake speaking sternly in a tongue I have never heard before, and oppression lifts...

Tongues is a precious gift.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

The oppression doesn't just lift, the oppressor runs or scatters. Thus, the reason for the war against the gift of Tongues. What does the enemy gain, is the question, one must ask whenever dealing with the enemy. And yes Tongues is a precious gift.
 
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But now in essence your agreeing with the post i made elsewhere warning exactly that!
I have always agreed with your posts concerning the gifts and ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is just that I took issue with you over the tar and feathering of the whole Christian church because of some who were being false and hypocritical.
 
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The oppression doesn't just lift, the oppressor runs or scatters. Thus, the reason for the war against the gift of Tongues. What does the enemy gain, is the question, one must ask whenever dealing with the enemy. And yes Tongues is a precious gift.
I have come to the conclusion that there are only two spirits operating: either the Holy Spirit, or demon spirits. There is no middle line. If a person is not manifesting a spiritual gift through the outflowing of the Holy Spirit within Him, then he is operating it from a demon spirit. Even if we say that a person is using a gift through the flesh, because it is not of the Spirit, there has to be a spirit that is not of God behind the action, ie: some type of demonic spirit, like a spirit of pride, or a controlling witchcraft spirit.

Therefore those who are teaching that the manifestation of the spiritual gifts, including tongues is not for today have to nail their colours to the mast. If they are not going to acknowledge that current Pentecostals and Charismatics are manifesting tongues, prophecy and other spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit, then they have to take the position that all Pentecostals and Charismatics who are exercising spiritual gifts are doing it through demon spirits.

John MacArthur is one of those prominent religious teachers who is adamant that the Charismatic movement is based on falsehood. In fact, whether he is prepared to admit it or not, he is teaching that all Pentecostals and Charismatics are of the devil because they are exercising spiritual gifts that don't come from the Holy Spirit.

These guys cannot have their cake and eat it too. They cannot say that Pentecostals and Charismatics "are our Christian brothers and sisters" and say at the same time that they are deceived by the devil in the way they exercise spiritual gifts. Either P/Cs are entirely of the Holy Spirit or entirely of the devil. A person cannot have the Holy Spirit and the devil at the same time. He cannot serve two masters. Either he serves one or the other.

MacArthur, in effect, is saying that P/Cs are serving the devil in their style of worship, and we know what Jesus said about those who accused Him of casting out demons through the prince of demons instead of the Holy Spirit.
 
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I have come to the conclusion that there are only two spirits operating: either the Holy Spirit, or demon spirits. There is no middle line. If a person is not manifesting a spiritual gift through the outflowing of the Holy Spirit within Him, then he is operating it from a demon spirit. Even if we say that a person is using a gift through the flesh, because it is not of the Spirit, there has to be a spirit that is not of God behind the action, ie: some type of demonic spirit, like a spirit of pride, or a controlling witchcraft spirit.

Therefore those who are teaching that the manifestation of the spiritual gifts, including tongues is not for today have to nail their colours to the mast. If they are not going to acknowledge that current Pentecostals and Charismatics are manifesting tongues, prophecy and other spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit, then they have to take the position that all Pentecostals and Charismatics who are exercising spiritual gifts are doing it through demon spirits.

John MacArthur is one of those prominent religious teachers who is adamant that the Charismatic movement is based on falsehood. In fact, whether he is prepared to admit it or not, he is teaching that all Pentecostals and Charismatics are of the devil because they are exercising spiritual gifts that don't come from the Holy Spirit.

These guys cannot have their cake and eat it too. They cannot say that Pentecostals and Charismatics "are our Christian brothers and sisters" and say at the same time that they are deceived by the devil in the way they exercise spiritual gifts. Either P/Cs are entirely of the Holy Spirit or entirely of the devil. A person cannot have the Holy Spirit and the devil at the same time. He cannot serve two masters. Either he serves one or the other.

MacArthur, in effect, is saying that P/Cs are serving the devil in their style of worship, and we know what Jesus said about those who accused Him of casting out demons through the prince of demons instead of the Holy Spirit.

Listening to John Mcarthur dries my soul when he said
that the manifestation in the church (pentecostals etc) are from the devil. Because he said pentecostal are attributing to the Holy spirit the works of demons, which is saying that is demonic what happens at pentecostal churches.

He makes no distinction of weird stuff in some 'pentecostal' churches and the others that are true.
 
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Listening to John Mcarthur dries my soul when he said
that the manifestation in the church (pentecostals etc) are from the devil. Because he said pentecostal are attributing to the Holy spirit the works of demons, which is saying that is demonic what happens at pentecostal churches.

He makes no distinction of weird stuff in some 'pentecostal' churches and the others that are true.
John MacArthur is a heretic and I have doubts that he is actually saved. He may be very plausible concerning many areas of his Bible teaching, but so were the unsaved Jewish Pharisees to accused Jesus of being a heretic and of the devil.
 
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Alithis

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The oppression doesn't just lift, the oppressor runs or scatters. Thus, the reason for the war against the gift of Tongues. What does the enemy gain, is the question, one must ask whenever dealing with the enemy. And yes Tongues is a precious gift.
Thevthing about the enemy is .he has no self restraint..just sets out to indiscriminately steal kill and destroy.
 
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Alithis

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I have always agreed with your posts concerning the gifts and ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is just that I took issue with you over the tar and feathering of the whole Christian church because of some who were being false and hypocritical.
Lets do a thread on it .. Because that which i oppose is a "system" rife with corruption and false teachings..

Not the scripture which states plainly of
Apostle prophets evagalists teachers/shepards
Elders/overseers etc .

But the hijacking of those titles and the upside down manner in which those titles are being used to "lord it over" the people.
To coerce monies for gain and
To serve banks.
To monologue people with long speeches onrs are not allowed to question and hold to account.thereby beguiling by thier clever monologue.
Etc
I in No way reject or oppose the biblical functioning of the assembling of people out of the world who gather to JESUS (Ekklesia) our captain .

So a thread on the topic would be interesting. But where to put it where the trolls wont smother it
 
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Lets do a thread on it .. Because that which i oppose is a "system" rife with corruption and false teachings..

Not the scripture which states plainly of
Apostle prophets evagalists teachers/shepards
Elders/overseers etc .

But the hijacking of those titles and the upside down manner in which those titles are being used to "lord it over" the people.
To coerce monies for gain and
To serve banks.
To monologue people with long speeches onrs are not allowed to question and hold to account.thereby beguiling by thier clever monologue.
Etc
I in No way reject or oppose the biblical functioning of the assembling of people out of the world who gather to JESUS (Ekklesia) our captain .

So a thread on the topic would be interesting. But where to put it where the trolls wont smother it
Put it in the Spirit-filled/Charismatic forum. That way you will get a series of balanced replies from Charismatics who have experienced the good, bad and the ugly. Try not to be accusative in your approach otherwise some may react, not to what you are saying, but the tone in which you are saying it. Otherwise the discussion will be informative and edifying for all.
 
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Alithis

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The Scripture says "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, rather that you may prophesy" (1 Corinthians 14:1). This is a command and not a recommendation. Those who do not desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, through incorrect teaching, are actually disobeying the Scripture. Because the instruction to desire spiritual gifts is in the same phrase as pursuing love, then those who are in error are saying they obey the first half of the verse, but they refuse to obey the second half!

Disobedience to a clear instruction in Scripture is a sin which needs to be repented of. Unrepented sin leads a person to hell and not to heaven. Also, if a church leader has unrepented sin, he can grieve the Holy Spirit, cause Him to withdraw and open the church to demonic infiltration.

Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, "Covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak in tongues". Refusing the prophetic gift and tongues in their church by teaching that it is false is a clear violation of a Scriptural instruction inspired by the Holy Spirit. A leader or teacher who says that he is teaching in the Holy Spirit, and is disobeying Spirit-inspired Scripture has to be a false teacher, because the Holy Spirit never supports anyone who blatantly disobeys the Word of God.
Seriously i think they skip the first part on thier way to ignoring the second part.
 
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