Tongues part 2

[@@Paul@@]

I’ll have to jump in on this. And please, i am not saying that if you speak in tongues you are being used by the devil... God may (by His grace alone) give someone the gift of tongues as He sees fit...

Anyone who believes that the gift of tongues is normal operating procedure for today must also believe every thing Jesus Himself said would follow:

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ******.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18.They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
KJV

Now, I believe and I’m pretty sure a lot of people at my church believe. But no one is going around healing the sick or picking up snakes or speaking with other tongues or drinking poison. Jesus didn’t say MIGHT possibly follow if you TRULY believe, He said SHALL follow them THAT believe. And they did follow ALL those who believed, throughout the entire book of Acts.

You can’t just study 1 and 2 Corinthians only, that’s like studying the OT and trying to find out what God is saying to man today. It doesn’t work. God told Adam one thing, Noah another and Moses something else… And like in times past, He is telling us something NEW today. We have a new calling, a new hope, and one that’s far greater than any other called out-group of people. IMHO.

We needs to look at God’s plan as a whole to find out what he has planned for you today and what He had planned for Israel in the past (and in the future), that is the only way to have a true understanding of His word. I assure you, they are two different plans with two different methods of working. We have no burning bush today, no cloud or light to follow, as did Israel. We have the Word of God. AND,, it is not easy, if it was, we would not have been told to study!
2 Tim 2:15-16
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
KJV

We all need to be able to accept all that we are taught by others with an open heart and mind. And we all need to fall on the Word ONLY for our source of truth – Search and See-. Not experience, that can be misleading.
Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
KJV

The FACT is, all spiritual gifts died out. Either abruptly or not I do not know. BUT, they DID die out from the church around 70 – 100ad… Why? Around 400ad there was a group of people who began speaking in tongues, the leader was labeled a heritic (sorry I can’t remember his name,, search and see!)… Then around 1900, people started doing it in the church again.

Now, there is one sect who practiced tongues all throughout history… Paganism. Satan CAN and does make people speak in tongues. I highly recommend the book “He came to set the captives free” for anyone who does not believe me.
Eph 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
KJV

We are dealing with spiritual forces that we cannot possibly imagine and they work both subtly and obviously. If Satan can fool 10 into thinking it’s OK, and acceptable, and no real harm, 10000 more are actually sucked in and kept from the truth.

Of course I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ who are seated with me in heavenly places, and I hope, those who read this will see SOME truth in what I’ve said an actually ‘search and see’… don’t believe me, or your parents, or your pastor,,,, Trust God,, and study your bible!!

For starters, read Ephesians!! This is the most glorious letter ever written, right up there with Colossians. We today have a NEW calling. We are part of a NEW body. If you need help,, please email me,, or post. I would be glad to.

Eph 2:5-7
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
KJV

PS. I think they can ditch the evil angry face for a smily,,, how can you admonish in love and use this?

 

[KleinerApfel]

Hello @@Paul@@

Welcome to the forums!

This is an area of mystery for me, I'll be interested to see it develop.

I note you place scripture as your ultimate authority, that's good, but where does the word of God say that the gifts of the Spirit will be withdrawn from His children?

You refer particularly to the more spectacular gifts.
What about the less overtly supernatural gifts, eg. encouragement, teaching, faith, and so on.
Do you believe the Church still receives those?
If so why the different treatment?

Blessings, Susana

 

[Heinrich]

hehehehe
your really funny Paul.

I don't even have to proof the gifts, it's actually all over the world.
And no it never ceased in the last 2000 years.

And all Jesus promised in Mark 16 still counts today.
To argue that the gifts ceased is very ignorant. There is just too much testimonys of miracles and healings and deliverances ect ect out there.

So you say:
Satan have all this bad stuff.. like deamons and his deamon tongues and worlocks and what have you ... and all this kept on going for the last 2000 years.. and before that.
But for some reason the Allmighty God decided after hundred years to withdraw all his gifts from the church.
doesn't sound like the promise of Jesus to me: Matt 28:20

 

[@@Paul@@]

Hello Susana and Heinrich!

There is no reason to call people ignorant, i am only sharing my view. I'm sure in the end we will ALL be wrong and the almighty will straighten us out. I'm just giving my opinion. We should all do as the Thessalonicians!!!
Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
KJV

Here’s where people differ in there beliefs: There are two types of gifts and two type of people.
There are two types of gifts… Gifts of POWER and there are the “less overtly “gifts as you put it. The gifts of power were given to ISRAEL, Gentiles could “eat of the crumbs” so to speak and be blessed through Israel. But THROUGH I the key word here.
God made NO covenants or promises with ANY nations APART from Israel. Well, I take that back… He made one with Noah.

Mark 16:15
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Acts 1:8
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me…

It is evident (and I don’t think anyone would argue this), this Power, was the gift OF the Holy Spirit. And these Signs were to follow those that believe. Jesus Himself told the apostles why, To be a witness and preach the gospel. What gospel? What exactly where people supposed to believe during the acts period?
Peter said in Acts 10:36-37 that is was the same “word” that John the baptist preached. Which was: “repent for the kingdom of the heavens was at hand:. That is not our message today.
So, if we do a little studying, we will see that the SIGNS given were to valididate this message. Which is NOT the message for today. We are not ussuring in His glorious kingdom, we are building up His Body,, that which fillith all in all… It is a NEW man (ep. 2). All throughout the old testament, God dealt with Israel using Signs. He was still dealing with them all throught the book of acts, it was no different. There is no historical evidence of these Sign gifts in the church in the centeries following acts. Why? Because God stopped dealing with Israel and started dealing with US… Acts 20 says he stopped, the the last seven letter of Paul to see that he’s dealing with US…..

So, when you say “His Children” are you refering to Israel?

Rom 9:1-5
9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 9 says Paul was NOT preaching the gospel to start a new church, He was wished himself "excommunicated from Christ" for the hope of ISRAEL... It also reminds us that we were never promised anything from God, Gifts, Land.. nothing. So how can He take away that which He never gave us? Some might argue that Gentiles received those “gifts”. And they Did… But NOT apart from Israel.
Jesus himself told us WHO he CAME to: Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Now these next verses are a little hard to swallow: But it IS the Word of God.
Matt 15:26-27
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
KJV

So, Gentiles were not to be blessed apart from Israel. We were allowed to “eat of crumbs” as they fell. It was the “children’s bread”, NOT ours..

And we know who he sent his disciples to: Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So, to answer your question: The bible does say that tongues will cease. But it does not say that God will take these gifts FROM us because He never gave them TO us. IF God was still dealing with Israel, and we ARE to operate in these gifts, the Romans 11 puts US in our place.
Rom 11:24
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
KJV
This olive tree is Israel. Isreal was likened to three trees: A Vine, An Olive Tree and a Fig tree.
Rom 15:27
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
KJV
Romans 15 says we are to SHARE Israel’s “spiritual things”. We were not given our own…….YET. We were given something even better than Israel was ever promised….

So, I do believe some people are gifted as teachers. (I myself am not one of them)… some are called to be pastors, some decons… We were ALL told to do the work of AN evangilist. But we were NOT told to BE evangelists. See the difference? There is no kingdom being offered right now, therfore there are no offices to fil.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

In ephesians we read that God made peace. How did he do that? In acts the gentiles believers were under ordinances. 4 I think, the Jews were keeping all of the law. Not for salvation, as part of their walk. Can you have peace with someone if they are only doing half of what you are? If you are a teacher, but really felt like being an apostle… can there be total peace? NO. If your friend speaks in tongues and you do no, but wish to, can there be peace?
You see, God took the two (twain), the Jews and the Gentiles. And made one NEW man…. He didn’t fix what was started.. When he stopped dealing with Israel (Acts 28, in 63 AD)… he made peace. AND when he judged Israel in 70AD, exactly 7 years after He “blinded their eyes”,,, the signs stopped.

I wrote a short study on Ephesians chapter 1 because I think it’s really important to see the differences of OUR calling today, and the calling of Israel… God has given us a different set of blessings and callings,,, we only need to study to figure out what it is… I will email it to anyone that asks… God bless.

 

[@@Paul@@]

F. Tongues Ceased to be Mentioned in Scripture

The gift of tongues does not appear in Scripture after Paul's discussion of their misuse in his first letter to the Corinthians. There is one other mention of tongues chronologically in the Bible but appears in the textually unsound and contestable passages of Mark 16:9-20. These verses do not appear in the two most reliable early manuscripts of the gospel and most likely were added by a scribe.

(Note: The following information listed in items G. through J. was extracted from the book "The Truth about Tongues," John MacArthur, Word of Grace, pp. 15-18, 1984).

G. Early Church Fathers did not Mention Tongues as Valid in Their Day

1. Clement of Rome - wrote a letter to the Corinthians in 95 A.D. discussing all of their spiritual problems. Tongues were never mentioned.

2. Justin Martyr - compiled a listing of spiritual gifts active in his time (A.D. 100-165) and did not include the gift of tongues.

3. Origen - never mentioned tongues and even argued that the "signs" of the Apostolic Age were temporary and that no contemporary Christian exercised any of these early "sign" gifts. (A.D. 185-253).

4. Chrysostom - writing on 1 Corinthians and the gift of tongues said, "This whole place is very obscure; but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by the cessation, being such as then used to occur, but now no longer take place." (A.D. 347-407).

5. Augustine - comments on Acts 2:4: "In the earliest times, 'the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues,'. . .These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit. . .That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away."

H. Supposed Occurrences of Tongues Since the Apostolic Age

1. Montanus and Tertullian - During the period of the early church the only people who were reported to have spoken in tongues were the followers of Montanus and Tertullian. Montanus, a recent convert, claimed to be the spokesman for the Holy Spirit. He believed that Christ would soon set up the Kingdom in the city of Phrygia, and tried to justify speaking in tongues as an occurrence of the end of the age. Montanus was expelled from the church as a heretic. Tertullian was a disciple of Montanus who advocated speaking in tongues as well. He lived from A.D. 150-222. (After Montanus and Tertullian, the next eruption of tongues was not until the late seventeenth century.)

2. The Cevenols - The gift of ecstatic utterance was claimed by a group of persecuted Protestants in southern France around 1685. They believed that their little children, who knew only the local dialect, were able to speak in perfect french while in a trance. The group was soon discredited because of their night raids and military reprisals against their enemies. And because all their prophecies went unfulfilled, they were branded as heretics and not considered to be a part of Mainline Christianity.

3. The Jansenists - Around 1731, a group of Roman Catholic reformers called the Jansenists, were holding night meetings at their leader's tomb during which they supposedly spoke in ecstatic languages.

4. The Shakers - The Shakers were followers of Mother Ann Lee, who lived from 1736-1784. She regarded herself as the female equivalent of Jesus Christ--God in a female body. She founded the Shaker community in Troy, New York, and claimed that she had received a revelation from God that sexual intercourse was corrupt. . .even within marriage. It is said that in order to teach her followers to mortify the flesh and to resist temptation, she instituted the practice of men and women dancing together in the nude while they spoke in tongues.

5. The Irvingites - About 1830, Edward Irving started a little group in London known as the Irvingites. This group began to speak in tongues but was soon discredited for several reasons: Their revelations contradicted Scripture, their prophecies went unfulfilled, their supposed healings were followed by death, there were rumors of immorality, and some of their leading members were accused of fraud.

I. The Pentecostal Movement

Tongues became a part of mainline Christianity in 1901 at Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas. Agnes Ozman received what she called "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" accompanied by speaking in
tongues.

J. The Charismatic Movement

In 1960, in Van Nuys, California, the modern Charismatic movement began in an Episcopalian church. It soon spread across mainline denominations of all kinds.

Today the Tongues movement has taken hold in nearly all denominations. There are Evangelicals, Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and even Mormons claiming the "unity of the Spirit" through the Charismatic movement. Never have we seen such a unifying of the separated denominations as we have seen in recent years.

Though the Charismatic Movement is widespread the question we need to answer is, "Is it Biblical?"" Lets begin our investigation with a look at the purpose of tongues.

I have done a little research into all this, and i have found no fault into what he's saying.... I started dating a "charismatic" 7 months ago who believes in all that....... and it really caused to to look at MY faith. What happened was i was trying so hard to show her what she was doing wrong, i began doing wrong myself. I was studying Acts because i thought that was the key to unlock the "mystery"... But, God doesn't work that way, it as HE wants, not ME... He wanted me to study Ephesians. He did and it changed my life...
How?......... I quit worrying about what God HAD done and started realizing what he will give US. It's so much more than an existence of performing signs for an unbeliever... "Set your affections on things above"... That's where you are seated!!

 

[KleinerApfel]

@@Paul@@

First, I DID NOT call you ignorant. I would not be so rude.
I am in no postion to judge anyway, being very ignorant over many things myself, though striving to remedy it where possible!

I think you're saying the gifts ended, but despite previously stating the bible as your authority, you haven't shown me anything from it which says this. Please explain if I'm missing something?

You speak of "two types of people", but the bible does not support this idea at all. It's by faith we are God's children, not clan, nationality, social position etc.
I was not refering to Israel alone as the Children of God, and neither does the Bible:

Galatians 3:26-29
"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

And God has most certainly made a covenant with Gentile believers, thanks be to Him.
The blood of Christ is the means of the New Covenant for us all, which Jesus spoke of, and the author of Hebrews deals with.
We are partakers if we have faith like Abraham et al. The author includes Rahab - a Gentile - in his list of faithful folk!

As for the Syro-Phonoecian/Canaanite woman - well Jesus blessed her didn't he? Yes, he came FIRST to the Jews, but NOT EXCLUSIVELY.

Lastly - the Gospel has NOT changed. Why do you think it has?

Looking forward to more explanations.

Blessings, Susana

 

[Symes]

Lastly - the Gospel has NOT changed. Why do you think it has?

Looking forward to more explanations.

Blessings, Susana

Susana

The gospel has not changed it is only our interpretation of it that has changed.

The tongues issue is a very emotional thing to deal with.

Paul in speaking about tongues cautions all not to speak if there is no one there to interpret and if there is to have no more than 3 or 4 people speak at a time.

Today that is not the case at all. Most of it is un-interpreted. Most is not necessary at all as the people there in most case can all speak the same language.

God is not the author of confusion, tongues in most case causes confusion.

 

[KleinerApfel]

tongues in most case causes confusion.

I can't argue with that Symes!

Although perhaps we only find this in our culture. In some parts of the world, including where the church is growing greatly, (unlike here in the "West"), these disputed gifts seem not to be contoversial among those believers.

 

[TheScottsMen]

I have seen alot of people say that tongues quit because of so and so reason. Yet not one has ever used scripture to prove that tongues have ceased. If tongues have ceased, by God, maybe even John 3:16 has ceased. Not one place in scripture has it said that tongues have ceased. Has all been made perfect? I think not. I do not know what Church you attend, but there are healings happening in our church and thousands of others all the time. As for, "..and if they drink any deadly thing" I've heard hundreds of times missionaries from our church not dieing when visiting a country after drinking a deadly thing. Btw; we are not to go around a drinking a deadly substance for the heck of it, who are we to test God? When Paul was bit by the snake did he get bit on purpose? Of course not, but because he was bit, he thought nothing of it, he new the will of God on the subject. Not one promise for the New Testament church has passed away.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Sorry, I was referring to the other guy. This should end up being a great study and a really tough one, we will need to first figure out whom the gifts were promised to, whom they were given too and for what reason.
In order for this to work, we should break off this huge study into easier edible chunks. We’ll see how it goes.

---
I think you're saying the gifts ended, but despite previously stating the bible as your authority, you haven't shown me anything from it which says this. Please explain if I'm missing something?
---

1 Cor 13:8-13
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.​

When you read the above verses, we are told that they would cease. Someday right? We didn’t get an exact date, so the question is always when. We know two facts from history, they did die out AND we know for a fact that the dark powers of this world can perform miracles and even Satan himself can be transformed into “an angel of light” (2 Cor 11:14). So, simply stating that because it’s still around so it must be true is not enough. We [were told to test every spirit:

1 John 4:1-3
4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.​

​

Paul’s ministry was two fold AND he did NOT know the eternal purpose of God at the time he wrote 1 Cor. at this point He believed Israel still had Hope to become the nation above all nations, and that was Paul's purpose at this point in time (there are many more scriptures which state this).

Acts 28:20
20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
Even at the closing of Acts Paul was a minister, not for the sake of the one body, but for the HOPE of Israel. Paul knew that he was going to the gentiles for the HOPE of the Jews, he also did not know God’s entire plan. In acts we read He was told:
Acts 26:16
and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee
KJV​

So when did God reveal to Paul his entire plan? At the point when he wrote 1 Cor., he knew IN PART and the prophesying was IN PART. Meaning, He was prophesying based on what God had already told HIM, not what God would reveal to him… BUT Paul knew, God would one day reveal to him His hidden purpose for this age. The one which was Hid in God since the beginning of the world. Now lets look at these verses again.

Vs 9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part [Paul states he was prophesying in PART, because he did not know Gods entire plan.]
vs10: But when that which is perfect is come [when God reveals the entire knowledge of His perfect plan (the perfect way to prophesy)], then that which is in part shall be done away [prophesying will be made whole].
vs11: When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child [just doing what your Father tells you too (no knowledge required)]: but when I became a man, I put away childish things [out of the house with full knowledge to live on your own].
vs12: For now we see through a glass, darkly [not knowing the full plan of God, the outcome can not be seen]; but then face to face: now I know in part [he knows in and prophesies in part]; but then shall I know even as also I am known [it will all make perfect sense]..

vs 8: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Now the word perfect in verse 10 stumps a lot of people. Some say that Christ is “the perfect” (and indeed He is). But, why would we need to be told that when Christ comes back, the gifts of tongues, knowledge and prophecy would cease? They were all being used to minister the gospel right? To, it’s obvious when “the gospel” returns that those “sign gifts” would no longer be required.
The word PERFECT here is in the neuter gender. Which mean’s it’s referring to a THING, not a person or a Deity. If Paul were referring to Christ it would be in the masculine gender. The greek work rendered ‘perfect’ means:

1. brought to its end, finished
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3. perfect
4. that which is perfect
a. consummate human integrity and virtue
b. of men
1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature​

So you see,, Paul knew God had a plan,,, he just didn't know what the entire plan was. It was given to him in part to fulfill the word of God.

Col 1:25
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
KJV​

So you see. We have all we need today. The Word of God. Nothing is left to be revealed. We can only be enlightened to it’s meaning (Ephesians 1).

You speak of "two types of people", but the bible does not support this idea at all. It's by faith we are God's children, not clan, nationality, social position etc.
I was not refering to Israel alone as the Children of God, and neither does the Bible:

Well, there are lots of types people in the bible. There is a bride, there are guests and there is a bridegroom. This in itself is a HUGE study and vital to see what our calling is for today. We are not the bride, Israel is the bride. Nor are we the guests, we are the bridegroom.
There are three different callings of God in scripture, the calling of Israel, the calling of the Church of God (the church founded at Pentecost), and the Church of the mystery.
All of these callings and groups of people are being built into a (ONE) Holy temple.

---
Galatians 3:26-29
"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

And God has most certainly made a covenant with Gentile believers, thanks be to Him.
The blood of Christ is the means of the New Covenant for us all, which Jesus spoke of, and the author of Hebrews deals with.
We are partakers if we have faith like Abraham et al. The author includes Rahab - a Gentile - in his list of faithful folk!
---

The bible state many times that God made ALL the covenants prior to the cross only with Israel. Because God had only delt with Israel:

Amos 3:2-3
2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
KJV​

We want so much to be in covenant relationship with God to get the blessings, but no one ever wants the punishments. (Even through Acts God was punishing the unjust believer.)
God foretold that this NEW covenant would be with Israel.

Jer 31:31-33
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
KJV​

This was reaffirmed in the New Testament.

Heb 8:8
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
KJV​

This does not pertain to us today. And praise God it doesn’t! Ever wonder what happens if you were to drink of His cup unworthy? Read verse 30 below, among you refers to the believers. And if you want to know what sleep means, read John 11:11.

1 Cor 11:29-30
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.​

Paul reminds us in Romans 9 that all the promises and all the covenants belong to Israel.

Gal 3:28-29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV​

Now, this says “heirs according to the promise”… It does not say we are heirs OF the promise. The promise was that we (Gentiles) would be blessed THROUGH Israel.
That is not how I see us being blessed today. The promises made to Israel pertain to an earthly relm of blessings, An earthly kingdom, earthly gifts, there were to be an earthly nation of priests. We have a new calling today and new blessings, more than any other called out-group of people. Our blessings our in “heavenly places” and “far above all”, we are actually seated WITH Christ in the heavens. Amazing!!

---
As for the Syro-Phonoecian/Canaanite woman - well Jesus blessed her didn't he? Yes, he came FIRST to the Jews, but NOT EXCLUSIVELY.
---

He did, it was never a secret that the gospel would eventually go to the gentiles. That was foretold in the OT scriptures. BUT, lets look at this case in depth.

Matt 15:22-28
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.​

First off we have this woman addressing Christ as Lord, and a “Son of David. This is NOT His relationship with the gentiles. He is NOT there King, He is a Jew.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.​

And because of this, He ignored her. And she cried out for Him.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.​

Christ reminds her the He is a Jew and He is only sent TO the Jews. He was not sent the earth to bless Gentiles, He was sent to confirm the promises made to Israel (rom 15:8).

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.​

Again, we should not try to take the children’s [Israel’s] bread [blessings}.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.​

All the world will be blessed THROUGH Israel.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.​

Now, the lesson here is this. He did not GO to the gentiles, but as with times past, they could go to Him, through Israel (verse 27).

---
Lastly - the Gospel has NOT changed. Why do you think it has?
---

It has actually changed a couple times. Gospel simply means “good news” and there was a lot of good news going around back then. There are 4 gospels spoken of in revelations, it will change again.

Beginning with John the Baptists ministry the ‘gospel’ was “Repent for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand”… and that someone, even greater than John would soon come.
Jesus preached the same thing.
Peter stated in Acts that the message (gospel) had not changed since John the Baptist. In Peter’s first few speeches he clearly states that Christ was there King and He would return if they repented. He was not preaching the same gospel we preach today.
We are preaching the good news, about the grace of God. And through the sacrifice of His Son, we have salvation as a free gift today.

God bless, Paul.

 

[@@Paul@@]

I have seen alot of people say that tongues quit because of so and so reason. Yet not one has ever used scripture to prove that tongues have ceased.

I'm not really trying to prove something. I'm trying to learn something. This is how i see it, hopefully someone may be inspired to study because of it. Likewise, I may learn something...

I do not know what Church you attend, but there are healings happening in our church and thousands of others all the time. As for, "..and if they drink any deadly thing" I've heard hundreds of times missionaries from our church not dieing when visiting a country after drinking a deadly thing.

I would gladly give you the name, just send me a PM. The problem It's always happening somewhere. And i do not doubt that God heals today, there are just no healers around. The bible does say, "them that believe". Not, those that have enough faith.

Btw; we are not to go around a drinking a deadly substance for the heck of it, who are we to test God? When Paul was bit by the snake did he get bit on purpose? Of course not, but because he was bit, he thought nothing of it, he new the will of God on the subject. Not one promise for the New Testament church has passed away.

Acts 2:43
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 4:30
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
Acts 5:12
12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people;
Acts 14:3
and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.​

Were they testing God? I sometimes wondered what signs and wonders were being done. Maybe Mark 16:17-18.?

 

[visionary]

Miracles, signs, and wonders......confusing lot. May God bless us with descernment. For in the last days, if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. May we all pray for the gift of discernment.

 

[Symes]

Miracles, signs, and wonders......confusing lot. May God bless us with descernment. For in the last days, if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. May we all pray for the gift of discernment.

Miracles are no test of truth. The devil can do them as well as anyone.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Could Satan heal someone?

 

[Symes]

I can't argue with that Symes!

Although perhaps we only find this in our culture. In some parts of the world, including where the church is growing greatly, (unlike here in the "West"), these disputed gifts seem not to be contoversial among those believers.

It all depends upon how the "tongues" have been manifested to the people who are present.

They may not even be Church members. But they must be at least people who are seeking truth.

 

[Heinrich]

I didn't read the whole thread, but there seem to be alot in the idea of "gifts has ceased"
Well I guess it must've been my imagination the previous couple of times I saw the gifts in operation. (Mostly Words of Knowledge/Wisdom and Prophecy but also Healing)

And no it's not from the devil because each time it's worked to edify believers and bring non believers to salvation.

 

[Symes]

Could Satan heal someone?

Not only can Satan heal, he does do it today. Not just in so called heathen lands but in western society today.

 

[Symes]

Before my wife became a Christian she was at a meeting where the man at the front was conducting a healing service.

He asked people to come down. A man came down who had a limp. It was obvious to all that one of his legs was shorter than the other.

So he sat down and through prayer the minister prayed that his short leg would grow as long as his good leg.

It did, but the only trouble it grew too long and then they had to pray that the leg would become shorter and be the same length as the good one.

After a few more attempts the legs ended up both the same length.

I believe that was not a miracle from God.

God does not make mistakes.

It was from the devil.

 

[@@Paul@@]

I didn't read the whole thread, but there seem to be alot in the idea of "gifts has ceased"
Well I guess it must've been my imagination the previous couple of times I saw the gifts in operation. (Mostly Words of Knowledge/Wisdom and Prophecy but also Healing)

Rom 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

It's really tough to even get people to study when they SEE something they think if of God. What's the point right? It must be true.

Acts 17:11
in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.​

If FAITH comes from hearing, and we only hear BY the Word of God. What exactly are we listening to? Certainly not what people are telling you, and not even what people are showing you.
Whatever happens in our lifes, or whatever we are taught,, receive it with all readyness of mind... Be open to ANY idea, but always back it up with scripture. Search the scriptures DAILY to see if those things are true...

If you see a glimer of truth into what i've said, apart from your own experiences,,, they study... search out what i've said and see if these "things are so".

And here's the important part... Search the scriptures with all readiness of mind... We should not study to prove a point, as most christians do i'm sure (i'm even guilty of that) . Simply see is what someone is saying is true, and some things take a lot of studying.

And no it's not from the devil because each time it's worked to edify believers and bring non believers to salvation.

God reaches people in many ways, I do not deny that. The problem is we tend to be happy with the 'milk' and ignore the 'meat'.

1 Cor 3:2
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.​

 

[@@Paul@@]

It was from the devil.

You don't KNOW that if was from the devil... It could have beenGod, just as easily as it could be Satan or it could even be man.

The problem is people assume it's always from God. Without studying.