TONGUES of 1Cor14

zeke37

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i am not a cessationalist, however i don't think the "cloven tongues of fire" of Acts are seen today, at least not that i know of.
that miracle of God kickstarted the Great Commission for us...

where folks heard a message in their very own home dialect,
regardless of what dialect the person speaking it, spoke.
it was to break the language barrier and show absolute "proof" that it was from God.

no one can fake it, because "everyone listening" would bear record....not one or two or three only...



all the "gifts" are for the "body"
biblically tongues has three meanings.
it can mean the actual literal tongue
it can mean what comes out of your mouth, your words
it can mean languages

in 1Cor12/14 tongues simply means languages of men,
either known (to the audience) or not known (to the audience).

the "tongues" of 1Cor12/14 are grossly misinterpreted by the charismatic denoms.
it's not about a special prayer language/ecstatic utterances at all.

it's the proper rules on how to effectively spread the Word of God past all language barriers,
into all tongues of men using the gifts of God mentioned in 1Cor12
including gifted foreign speaking preachers and gifted interpreters of langauges,
so that the speakers words could be interpreted into the audiences language and thus understood by the audience, so they can come to God.


it's the rules for "The Great Commission"....

if so, then making it about charismatic prayer language/ecstatic utterances is making void the Word of God, is it not?
 

zeke37

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Cor14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
the already written word = prophesy
for a thing to be prophesy to someone, the thing must be understood
2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
by example
if a greek man speaks the gospel in greek to an englishman who does not understand greek
then he'd be preaching to only God
even tho the greek man is in the Spirit and speaking about God
his words are a mystery to the englishman
instead of edifying the englishman in the Lord, his words would be unintelligible babble
only God would understand the greek man, instead of the englishman, and the point was to edify the englishman.

it is a negative not a positive

if that tongue is understood, whether by birth/learned/translater/supernatural,
then those words become prophesy
3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
the positive above
4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
the negative first
if the tongue you speak is unknown to the audience, then you'r only speaking to yourself (as in verse 2, to God only, or verse 9, to the air)

the positive after
if that tongue is understood then your words edify the church
5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
if we all spoke all tongue of man, then that would be great
but we dont so those words need to be interpreted to the audience so that those words can become prophesy to them
so the audience can be edified
6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you,
that's the negative
if Paul spoke in Hebrew, to those in Rome, what profit is there?
except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
that is the positive
the words must be understood to be revelation / knowledge and become doctrine to those in attendance

his words must be understood to be of any value
7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
a negative
8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
explained much the same way as i explained it above
this a repeated pattern, over and over again
speak into the air is like verse2's speak unto God...a bad thing if you were supposed to edify the audience.
10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
again
if we speak and hear babble, then it will sound like babble
this refers to gentile tongues/languages.
speak greek to an englishman and the englishman here's barbarian speech

much the same way when charismatic tongues are spoken, we all hear barbarian speech
12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
by them understanding your words
remember that this is a multi-lingual gentile nation, and their only church for hundreds of square miles.
folks gathered there to share scriptures and the gospel and to praise God
it evidently was mass confusion because there was no order
ie. the greek man preaching in greek, to a crowd filled with a multitude of people
all speaking different tongues/languages/dialects.
people talking over one another etc
probably 10 sermons going on all at once...wow what a headache
confusion
13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
that he(his greek words) may be interpreted by another in attendance
someone who is a believer, that also who speaks one or more of the crowds tongue/language
having an orderly way to spread the Good News is paramount
14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
if I pray out loud, to an audience in my ie. native greek language
and that audience doesn't understand greek
then even tho i am in the Spirit, even speaking the Gospel
the fruit i am trying to produce is unfruitfull to the audience
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
can't be more plain
pray with the Spirit AND understanding
16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
we have to understand the words to have the desired response to them
17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
you speaking greek to a culturally diverse audience, you might give thanks to God well,
but the audience would'nt know it
18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Paul spoke many languages that we know of
He was a Roman citizen, Hebrew, tribe of Ben, house of Judah
God chose him to travel around for the gentiles
he was a linguist
and his speaking multiple tongues/languages was a reason why he was chosen
19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
even though he speaks many different languages
speaking 1000's of words in greek to an english audience, would accomplish nothing
he'd rather speak 5 words that they'd understand than 1000 that they don't
it is paramount that the audience understand his (our) words so they can come to God.
 
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zeke37

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20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
hebrew greek latin english french german, etc
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
tongues, here, means interpreted tongues
the Good News spreading from one langauge into another that edifies them that believe not
when one understands those words, it's a sign to God for them

it is NOT a sign for those that ALREADY believe.
23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
the ie. is that there are many different tongues/languages represented under one roof
if there was no order, and people just started to preach in what ever tongue was their own
it would do the others who did not understand their tongue no good,
and even confuse those who were new/unlearned/searching
they'll think you're nuts, kinda like many think that charismatic tongues are a little nutty
24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

if what is preached/sung/prayed is understood, then that's prophesy, and the unlearned can learn
everyone can agree, meaning multiple witnesses to the truth of what is said
one must understand the invitation to open themselves to God fully

obviously that is not the case when a person starts to speak in charismatic tongues
because no one understands
someone might claim it, but if it were following the bible here, then everyone would understand
26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
this verse assumes that the speaker and audience speak different languages, and only have one church
and they wish to (are commissioned to) share what they have learned/read
and spread the gospel to the ends of the earth
27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
it's ok to speak greek to them,
but make sure your words are interpreted by an interpreter
so the crowd can understand
not too many at one time tho
greek, to english, to french
ok, but stop there, otherwise it would become too confusing

one preacher preaching, maybe two or three different speaking interpreters interpreting,
that understand the preachers words,
each in turn interpreting to the multi-lingual congregation
so all can come to God
28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
if no one there speaks chineese, not even any interpreters
then don't confuse the congregation by giving your testimony in chineese
it would mean nothing to them, and sound like babble
29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
as above
two or three at a time
so as not to confuse the audience
30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
if you understand one of the translated languages, or the original, but your brethren beside you does not
don't explain it to him right there and then...as you might miss the message and disrupt others listening around you

wait until your alone later, to explain ti to your neighbour,
so you continue to hear the entire message and you won't disrupt anyone else there
32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
God does not author confusion
charismatic tongues bring confusion and this chapter is just not about that at all.
34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
don't explain things in the middle of the service as that would disrupt things.
plus i think there was another contending "religion" female based,
that Paul was contending with at Corrinth.
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
the Word of God is not for anyone alone
and certainly not like it is presented with regards to charismatic tongues
39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40Let all things be done decently and in order.
travelling around and spreading the Word is not limited to Hebrew, Greek, or Latin, but rather it is for all tongues

it's ok to spread His message to others in a foreign tongue
as long as your words are translated for them, into their tongue
now, that may seem a tad obvious today, but that is what the entire chapter is about back then.
it is not about charismatic tongue, and making it such makes void the word of God that the chapter contains about the great commission
 
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InSpiritInTruth

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There is also the tongues of men= natural (or carnally understood)

And then there is tongues of angels= spiritual (spiritually understood)

Both can be spoken in the same literal langauge(like english) but the natural cannot receive (or understand) the meaning of the spiritual because it is spiritually discerned.:thumbsup:
 
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seekertruth72

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Another gift that seems to be misunderstood is the gift of healing, it seems as if sometimes we think that if we are not healed then we have no faith. But the scriptures don't agree with this, not that i can see anyway. Not everyone has the gift of healing.



1Co_12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co_12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co_12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


Jas_5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
 
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seekertruth72

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And this statement from Paul should be considered also-


1Co_14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


1Co_10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.


Eph_4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.


Im not saying that speaking in tongues is corrupt communication, just that when unlearned people or unbelievers think we are mad/crazy because we failed to heed pauls teaching concerning speaking in tongues which is sound doctrine, then we are not ministering grace unto the hearers, we are not edifying them, only ourselves.
 
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JRSut1000

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I too am not cessationist (sp?), but I am very doubtful of how 'tongues' is taught in many church circles today. The part that worries me the most is when they say 'initial evidence of speaking in tongues'. If anything, prophecy is the big one. The only reason tongues (foreign languages) was 'initial' was because many from various nations were gathered together for a feastday of YHWH, so that's the gift God used to reach out to them. They had gathered together to observe Shavuot (the giving of the Torah) and God used that for the 'giving of the Spirit'. It was appropriate. But to make a whole theology/doctrine out of this is just silliness.
 
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JRSut1000

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Yep, sounds like Apostolic denomination. Thankfully being filled with the Spirit encompasses a whole lot more than just 'tongues'. Being filled with the Spirit simply means what it says. Our lives are filled with Him. So that we have power over sin and principalities, so that we have the fruit of the Spirit, and the gifts are definitely part of that too! But to say it HAS TO be tongues... idk, not enough evidence in my opinion.
 
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seekertruth72

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So that we have power over sin and principalities, so that we have the fruit of the Spirit, and the gifts are definitely part of that too! But to say it HAS TO be tongues... idk, not enough evidence in my opinion.

The evidence actually says the apposite, it suggests that not everyone has the gift of tongues.

And its only a sign to unbelievers, if someone speaks in the language of an unbeliever then it could edify that person, at least i think thats what the scriptures say about it, but if no one understands it then it doesn't edify anyone.
 
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seekertruth72

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I didnt say that it had to be tongues. I said gifts, there are many gifts. :) And you're right, not all speak in tongues.

I know you didn't sister, i understood what you meant, i was agreeing with you and assuring you that not only does the evidence not support that all will have the gift of tongues, but it actually says the opposite, that all do not have that gift.
 
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Lysimachus

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i'm suprised that there is not more opposition to my posts on this subject.

I have found that the majority of those who support the "ecstatic tongues" (gibberish) theology do not really debate on forums. Very few are students of scripture, but go more by feelings and emotions at Church, and are never even online to read these things.

Most people in here that debate in forums think more on scripturally intellectual levels, taking texts more seriously--and are not so much into the "sensational feelings" at Church.
 
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Going Merry

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I was told once that if i didnt speak in tongues that i didn't have Gods Spirit. But thankfully i have Gods spirit and His word, because that is not true according to scripture.

Although tongues is a sign of having the holy spirit, it doesn't mean if you don't speak in tongues you don't have the holy spirit. Likewise, if you speak in tongues, you could also just be demon possessed.

God says though the holy spirit can be likened to rivers of flowing water within us. So when you were born again, you should have received that fountain, that is it's manifestation. I know it is like that too. I received the witness of the Spirit once I believed in God according to His word. And that witness stays with you. On the other hand you can grieve the Spirit so that fountain feeling dies out for awhile till you start doing his will again, so I fell into despair over my first time experiencing that, thinking I lost him for good. lol
 
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