Tongues and Acts 2

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ARBITER01

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As an elder and teacher in a Pentacostal Church, I assumed my opinions would be permitted in this forum. If this is a “you must speak in tongues” forum, then that should have been made clearer.

We have to give them credit for living it since before the Protestant Reformation (and taking lumps for it).

As a Particular Baptist, I aspire to their example (we are innately mean ... I don't know if you heard or not.) ;)

Interesting what we find on the forums.
 
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Read what Acts 2 reports that the people said they heard and compare that to other scriptures on ‘tongues’. Do they describe the same thing or not?

How about listing 3 people raised from the dead after Pentecost? You would think a ‘common’ occurrence of such importance (raising the dead) would be mentioned more than once.

I never claimed that you should not expect God to raise the dead … I claimed that two unique miracles (Lazarus and Pentecost) were “unique miracles” and not repeated in scripture as they appeared in those special events.
The Book of Acts is historical narrative. It is not meant to be prescriptive unless the text included in an event expressly says so. To make a descriptive event into something that is to be prescribed for all believers without a supporting text associated with the event, is applying the even description in a way that is not intended by the author. I don't believe in the notion that the Holy Spirit "mysteriously" applies a descriptive event to the experience of Christian believers.

When we apply this to Acts 2, we see that the Day of Pentecost description of the coming of the Holy Spirit to the group of believers, along with a sound like a mighty rushing wind, tongues of fire resting on their heads, and spontaneously speaking in tongues which were understood by all the regional Jewish visitor who heard them, we see nothing in the text that this should happen to every future group of believers. Nor does the text say that the tongues have to be languages that are understood by those who hear them.

The same goes for when Peter raised Dorcas from the dead. This is a description of how Peter was used to achieve the miracle, but there is no text to say that this should happen with every subsequent believer who encounters a person who has passed away.

Incidentally, the falling of the Holy Spirit on the 12 Ephesian disciples was also descriptive, without any evidence in the text that this is what every believer should experience. But there are some Pentecostal groups who have used this event to say that the baptism with the Spirit is a subsequent event to conversion because Paul asked them: "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?" But those group have added one and one and got three, because the disciples had just the baptism of John, and the Holy Spirit fell when they were baptised in the name of Jesus.

But when people use descriptive narrative to come up with a theology for all believers without actual text that shows that the event has a prescriptive aspect for believers, they are being presumptive - adding to the text something that isn't there.

But we know that when people receive Christ, and are baptised in His name, they receive the Holy Spirit, because every event in Acts where people received Christ, they received the Holy Spirit, and Paul says in Galatians, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit according to the Law or by faith (my paraphrase from memory)? What Paul is saying is that when a person receives Christ by faith, they also receive the Holy Spirit.

Also we know that there are not two baptisms, because Paul expressly said, "One Lord, one faith, and one baptism." So there is only one baptism with the Spirit and that is when the person receives Christ and is baptised. Also, interestingly, those who received Christ were baptised immediately and not some time after. What delays baptism in our churches is a matter of organisation and setting up rather than some doctrine that says that baptism should occur at a later time.

So the upshot of what I am saying is that we need to correctly discern between what is descriptive narrative and what is meant to be prescriptive for believers. If a Scripture reference is meant to be prescriptive, then the text should make that quite clear. The example is that 1 Corinthians is prescriptive for all believers everywhere, because Paul clearly says that in the opening verses of chapter 1.

By the way, that includes chapters 12 and 14 along with the rest of the book. There is nothing in the text that says that chapters 12 and 14 apply just to a select group of believers in the First Century as some want us to believe. Just sayin...
 
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ARBITER01

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Although Oscarr is dabbling in the cessationist playground,...

How are prophets called in modern times?

A bit of correction is in order,...

The book of Acts is just as much a part of our bible as any of the books are. In particular, it is what The Holy Spirit will use to provide examples for our Spirit-filled life. As much as the example of our Lord Jesus is to us from the gospels, so are the Apostles and Prophets in the book of Acts.

Be not fooled by men and their opinions.
 
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Although Oscarr is dabbling in the cessationist playground,...

How are prophets called in modern times?

A bit of correction is in order,...

The book of Acts is just as much a part of our bible as any of the books are. In particular, it is what The Holy Spirit will use to provide examples for our Spirit-filled life. As much as the example of our Lord Jesus is to us from the gospels, so are the Apostles and Prophets in the book of Acts.

By not fooled by men and their opinions.
So, let me get this right here. I agree that the Gospels and Acts are just as much a part of our Bible as any of the book are. So what you are implying is that the descriptive historical narratives in the Gospels and Acts are to provide examples for our Spirit-filled life, right?

Jesus controlled the weather, can we?
Jesus could walk on water, can we?
Jesus could instantly transport Him and His disciples in their boat instantly from one part of the lake to another, can we do instant transportation?
Jesus fed over 5000 people with five loaves and three fish. How about us?
Paul went to the 3rd heaven, can we do the same?
Peter caused a married couple who had lied to the Spirit to fall down dead. Could we do that?
Judas was deeply depressed after betraying Jesus and went out and hanged himself. Should we do the same?
Agabus correctly predicted a famine which came to pass. Have any modern prophets made predictions that have come to pass? Why not?
Jesus healed all those who came to Him, why can't we?
Jesus turned water into wine. Can we do that?

So, if what you say is right, you should, being filled with the Holy Spirit, should be able to do all these things, because, as you say, these are examples that we can demonstrate in our own Spirit-filled life. So why are these things not happening to Spirit-filled people on a regular basis?
 
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ARBITER01

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So, let me get this right here. I agree that the Gospels and Acts are just as much a part of our Bible as any of the book are. So what you are implying is that the descriptive historical narratives in the Gospels and Acts are to provide examples for our Spirit-filled life, right?

Jesus controlled the weather, can we?
Jesus could walk on water, can we?
Jesus could instantly transport Him and His disciples in their boat instantly from one part of the lake to another, can we do instant transportation?
Jesus fed over 5000 people with five loaves and three fish. How about us?
Paul went to the 3rd heaven, can we do the same?
Peter caused a married couple who had lied to the Spirit to fall down dead. Could we do that?
Judas was deeply depressed after betraying Jesus and went out and hanged himself. Should we do the same?
Agabus correctly predicted a famine which came to pass. Have any modern prophets made predictions that have come to pass? Why not?
Jesus healed all those who came to Him, why can't we?
Jesus turned water into wine. Can we do that?

So, if what you say is right, you should, being filled with the Holy Spirit, should be able to do all these things, because, as you say, these are examples that we can demonstrate in our own Spirit-filled life. So why are these things not happening to Spirit-filled people on a regular basis?

You're in the wrong forum with these faithless opinions of yours Oscarr.
 
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ARBITER01

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Let's go through your list some Oscarr,...

Jesus controlled the weather, can we? Working of Miracles
Jesus could walk on water, can we? Gift of Faith
Jesus could instantly transport Him and His disciples in their boat instantly from one part of the lake to another, can we do instant transportation? Working of Miracles
Jesus fed over 5000 people with five loaves and three fish. How about us? Gift of Faith
Paul went to the 3rd heaven, can we do the same? Act of GOD
Peter caused a married couple who had lied to the Spirit to fall down dead. Could we do that? GOD's Judgment spoken through us
Judas was deeply depressed after betraying Jesus and went out and hanged himself. Should we do the same? Stupid remark
Agabus correctly predicted a famine which came to pass. Have any modern prophets made predictions that have come to pass? Why not? Word of Wisdom
Jesus healed all those who came to Him, why can't we? Gifts of Healings
Jesus turned water into wine. Can we do that? Working of Miracles

Most of these items in your list are associated with different gifts of The Spirit. From what I understand of you, you have only ever operated in praying in tongues and possibly the gift of prophesying, although you denounce that gift what from you've said.

The things you listed are predominantly associated with the power gifts, ie gift of faith, working of miracles, gifts of healings. These 3 gifts are normally operated by The Holy Spirit, and to have that happen one must have an anointing placed upon them like Jesus was given. But of course you have reasoned all understanding of such things away at this point, the very same thing that cessationists do when they can't believe GOD's word.
 
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You're in the wrong forum with these faithless opinions of yours Oscarr.
Okay. So you can do all these things if you have enough faith. I get it. Nothing more needs to be said.
 
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Let's go through your list some Oscarr,...



Most of these items in your list are associated with different gifts of The Spirit. From what I understand of you, you have only ever operated in praying in tongues and possibly the gift of prophesying, although you denounce that gift what from you've said.

The things you listed are predominantly associated with the power gifts, ie gift of faith, working of miracles, gifts of healings. These 3 gifts are normally operated by The Holy Spirit, and to have that happen one must have an anointing placed upon them like Jesus was given. But of course you have reasoned all understanding of such things away at this point, the very same thing that cessationists do when they can't believe GOD's word.
I understand and agree that the Bible teaches about the gifts and that the spiritual gifts are for today. No issue there. But I attended Pentecostal churches for the first 12 years of my Christian life, and although i heard many messages and speeches about the gifts, I never saw one effective demonstration of them, other than prophecies, many of which included many of the popular Charismatic buzz words, and were mainly forgotten by the singing of the next hymn. I never saw one actual healing, even though I went to every healing conference over those twelve years, featuring some of the well-known "big name" healing evangelists of the time.

I firmly believe in the New Testament gift of prophecy as Paul taught it. But I reject false prophecy that use buzz words but are actual "nothing burgers" (burgers without the beef), or predicts things that never come to pass. For example, what is Chuck Pearce saying here? Is he really saying anything?
 
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atpollard

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Interesting what we find on the forums.
… and BOTH statements were true. If it was any of your business, I could provide the e-mail for the Pentecostal Church and you could speak with the Pastor and have him confirm both my SOTIERIOLOGY and my ELDERSHIP in the Church.
 
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ARBITER01

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I understand and agree that the Bible teaches about the gifts and that the spiritual gifts are for today. No issue there. But I attended Pentecostal churches for the first 12 years of my Christian life, and although i heard many messages and speeches about the gifts, I never saw one effective demonstration of them, other than prophecies, many of which included many of the popular Charismatic buzz words, and were mainly forgotten by the singing of the next hymn. I never saw one actual healing, even though I went to every healing conference over those twelve years, featuring some of the well-known "big name" healing evangelists of the time.

I firmly believe in the New Testament gift of prophecy as Paul taught it. But I reject false prophecy that use buzz words but are actual "nothing burgers" (burgers without the beef), or predicts things that never come to pass. For example, what is Chuck Pearce saying here? Is he really saying anything?

I think you are confused Oscarr,... my faith as well as any other Christian's faith is not based on your reasoning. Just because your relationship with GOD may be suffering currently doesn't mean mine is.

If your ambition here is to talk us into skepticism,.... I don't think any one of us is really listening to you.
 
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… and BOTH statements were true. If it was any of your business, I could provide the e-mail for the Pentecostal Church and you could speak with the Pastor and have him confirm both my SOTIERIOLOGY and my ELDERSHIP in the Church.

I don't need any further confirmation on your lack of understanding about the gifts,...
 
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atpollard

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I don't need any further confirmation on your lack of understanding about the gifts,...
I get it, you can do everything.

So don’t let me keep you from juggling vipers as you jog across the surface of the water on the multiplied bodies of the fish you raised from the dead.

Who needs context when we can just claim Scripture means whatever we want it to mean. Carry on, I won’t even try to stop you.
 
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ARBITER01

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I get it, you can do everything.

So don’t let me keep you from juggling vipers as you jog across the surface of the water on the multiplied bodies of the fish you raised from the dead.

Who needs context when we can just claim Scripture means whatever we want it to mean. Carry on, I won’t even try to stop you.

Lol. You're funny.

7 of the 9 gifts were available prior to New Testament times, and operate the same way now that they did back then. No change.

My point is this,....the revelation and instruction to Paul on how the two additional gifts that were added by Jesus in NT times were to operate was the same across scripture. That means that the corporate event of utterance by The Holy Spirit in Acts 2 falls under that same instruction and guideline that Paul gave, meaning that the gift of tongues is not understandable, whether we are talking about acts 2 or corinthians, that gift never changed. It always requires the gift of interpretation when it is corporate speaking, and since it was stated as "by utterance of The Holy Spirit" in acts 2, it was corporate speaking.

Good day..
 
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I think you are confused Oscarr,... my faith as well as any other Christian's faith is not based on your reasoning. Just because your relationship with GOD may be suffering currently doesn't mean mine is.

If your ambition here is to talk us into skepticism,.... I don't think any one of us is really listening to you.
It sounds as if you put the Bible into second place to an inner voice that you identify as the Holy Spirit. As for me, I am Sola Scriptura - I believe what the Bible actually says, not additions constructed by eisegesis. If the written Scriptures don't say it, I don't believe it. I don't walk on water or control the weather, because Jesus never said that I could.
 
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ARBITER01

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It sounds as if you put the Bible into second place to an inner voice that you identify as the Holy Spirit. As for me, I am Sola Scriptura - I believe what the Bible actually says, not additions constructed by eisegesis. If the written Scriptures don't say it, I don't believe it. I don't walk on water or control the weather, because Jesus never said that I could.

That's why you and I, and probably others, have issues right now.

You're idea of sola scriptura doesn't involve The Holy Spirit, mine does. You accept men's opinions, I accept what The Holy Spirit teaches me instead.

Like I said, you ought to just change your religious icon. You're operating under the ideas associated with mainline Protestant denominations, not Pentecostal/Charismatic ones.
 
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That's why you and I, and probably others, have issues right now.

You're idea of sola scriptura doesn't involve The Holy Spirit, mine does. You accept men's opinions, I accept what The Holy Spirit teaches me instead.

Like I said, you ought to just change your religious icon. You're operating under the ideas associated with mainline Protestant denominations, not Pentecostal/Charismatic ones.
I don't agree. Being Calvinist Puritan with a restorationist view of the gifts of the Spirit for today, I allow the Holy Spirit to teach me through His written Scriptures, which are alive and powerful and God breathed, as Paul said to Timothy.

If there was a rich man in hell today who appealed to Jesus to get someone to rise from the dead to go and warn his brothers not to come to "this horrible place", I believe that Jesus would say to him, "They have Moses, the Prophets, and the Apostles". If they don't believe them, then even someone rising from the dead won't convince them." In other words, Jesus would be telling him that his brothers had the Old and New Testaments, and if they didn't believe what was written in them, then no amount of sign, wonders, inner voices, or even someone rising from the dead wouldn't convince them to repent and get right with God so they could avoid falling into hell when the time comes.
 
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ARBITER01

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You're no longer a Pentecostal, why try to fool people into thinking you are on here?

We are probably not going to have much to talk about anymore since you are so easily swayed into cessationism, even bragging about to your buddies over in the controversial theology forum.
 
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You're no longer a Pentecostal, why try to fool people into thinking you are on here?

We are probably not going to have much to talk about anymore since you are so easily swayed into cessationism, even bragging about to your buddies over in the controversial theology forum.
I still subscribe to Pentecostal theology, not the modern version corrupted by Word-Faith theology, but traditional Pentecostal theology has taught by my mature pastor who had a Methodist Holiness background. It is significant that a large branch of Pentecostalism came from the Methodist Holiness movements of the late 19th Century. The Methodist Holiness people were the Charismatics of their day, one fine example is Guy Bevington, an evangelist with the movement who had a remarkable genuine healing gift. Incidentally, he was Arminian who believed in entire sanctification by faith and prayed people through to achieve it. But obviously God had no difficulty with his theology because the healings that happened were totally genuine. There is no record that he ever spoke in tongues, but he was certainly Pentecostal in every other sense of the word. He even referred to himself as Pentecostal. He knew of Alexander Dowie, one of the founders of the Pentecostal movement, but thought he was a total fraud and a charatan. I found that interesting, because by contrast to Bevington, people, including his own daughter, died under his "healing" ministry.

You say I am "fooling people" and "bragging with my cessationist buddies", accusing me of being deceptive and being swayed to cessationism. I'm not aware that there is a fruit of the Spirit called "accusative". I don't think that God has a problem with me being a combination of Calvinist Puritan and Pentecostal theology, even if you do.
 
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jiminpa

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I still subscribe to Pentecostal theology, not the modern version corrupted by Word-Faith theology, but traditional Pentecostal theology has taught by my mature pastor who had a Methodist Holiness background. It is significant that a large branch of Pentecostalism came from the Methodist Holiness movements of the late 19th Century. The Methodist Holiness people were the Charismatics of their day, one fine example is Guy Bevington, an evangelist with the movement who had a remarkable genuine healing gift. Incidentally, he was Arminian who believed in entire sanctification by faith and prayed people through to achieve it. But obviously God had no difficulty with his theology because the healings that happened were totally genuine. There is no record that he ever spoke in tongues, but he was certainly Pentecostal in every other sense of the word. He even referred to himself as Pentecostal. He knew of Alexander Dowie, one of the founders of the Pentecostal movement, but thought he was a total fraud and a charatan. I found that interesting, because by contrast to Bevington, people, including his own daughter, died under his "healing" ministry.

You say I am "fooling people" and "bragging with my cessationist buddies", accusing me of being deceptive and being swayed to cessationism. I'm not aware that there is a fruit of the Spirit called "accusative". I don't think that God has a problem with me being a combination of Calvinist Puritan and Pentecostal theology, even if you do.
I think he was talking to someone else, who actually admitted to not being Pentecostal/Charismatic anymore and to deceptively keeping the designation so that he can continue coming on here to bash the gifts.
 
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I think he was talking to someone else, who actually admitted to not being Pentecostal/Charismatic anymore and to deceptively keeping the designation so that he can continue coming on here to bash the gifts.

No I was talking to him.

To me it is quite deceptive to argue against Spirit-filled people and their leaders on here with cessationist sources whilest still claiming to be Pentecostal, when in fact he has bragged about only keeping the denominational icon "just so I can debate in that forum."

Probably this is an area that needs to be brought up to the admins to see what can be done about it since posts like this are not done in fellowship.
 
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