Tollhouses!

[Not David]

unfortunately, you can't be Orthodox like Hart until Hart becomes Orthodox.

I thought he was part of the Church

 

[ArmyMatt]

I thought he was part of the Church

yeah, but he openly professes heresy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I do not look up most of arguments against toll houses online because some individuals, like Fr Lazar ( Puhalo), seem to exhibit heretical notions ( like soul sleep).

There seem to be problems within the toll tradition too as to who actually said what in some instances, It seems like nothing can be questioned like whether the Theotokos prayed to avoid the toll houses, I never saw them mentioned in formal theology of St. John of Damascus yet abound (in ways that are probably unverified) in hymns attributed to him. The Theodora vision is part of this tradition regardless also.

To those it helps good, but it does not help all of us. I have heard good natured Orthodox people tell me that we should share communion with non Orthodox, or people think I’m a bit serious for mentioning the 10 commandments every few full (not blue) moons, people who have lost basic knowledge of faith. These are good people who were properly pastored to but still become oblivious. What is this doctrine going to do for them?

to answer your question, to prepare for them when they come.

 

[prodromos]

It all boils down to remaining vigilant. Also, has there ever been an account of any soul succumbing to the demons at the tollhouses? In the few NDE's I've read where the tollhouses get a mention, Panagia or their guardian angel always come to their aid.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It all boils down to remaining vigilant. Also, has there ever been an account of any soul succumbing to the demons at the tollhouses? In the few NDE's I've read where the tollhouses get a mention, Panagia or their guardian angel always come to their aid.

and no Father ever refuted or opposed the teaching.

 

[AMM]

and no Father ever refuted or opposed the teaching.

perhaps my logic is flawed, but if no one has ever succumbed to the demons at the tollhouses, why would we need to be afraid of them?

 

[AMM]

Is that sorta like the one desert father's saying, we go to heaven or hell depending on what state we are found in at our death? I.e., if we are faithful in Christ (even if we are still full of sins) when we depart this life, then we will pass through the demon's temptations. If we are unfaithful (even if we are virtuous), then we will succumb to the temptations because we do not have Christ dwelling in us and united to us by faith?

 

[prodromos]

perhaps my logic is flawed, but if no one has ever succumbed to the demons at the tollhouses, why would we need to be afraid of them?

To be vigilant. Pride would say I have nothing to fear, while humility would provoke a different response.

 

[ArmyMatt]

perhaps my logic is flawed, but if no one has ever succumbed to the demons at the tollhouses, why would we need to be afraid of them?

well, unrepentant sinners have succumbed.

 

[AMM]

well, unrepentant sinners have succumbed.

What if there are sins we are unaware of? And since we are unaware, we have not repented?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What if there are sins we are unaware of? And since we are unaware, we have not repented?

then if you have a repentant heart, when you see the demons you will immediately turn to Christ and His mercy, which dispels the demons.

 

[Lyrasong]

To be vigilant. Pride would say I have nothing to fear, while humility would provoke a different response.

Perhaps it is best to focus upon the soon return of our Lord and to keep our lamps oiled and lit, as He advised us to do.

 

[Lyrasong]

The following from Saint John Climacus came to mind while reading this thread:

Sometimes what serves as a medicine for one, is poison for another; and sometimes something given to one and the same person at a suitable time serves as a medicine, but at the wrong time it is a poison.​

If someone is allergic to a certain medicine, why force it on her? It's not like there aren't any other ways (Love of God as opposed to fear) to bring about the desired healing. Isn't that what Saint Porphyrios suggested for our weak generation?

For me, it is the thought that we will have to come face-to-face with demons that is most troubling about the Toll-House teaching. We are taught during our earthly pilgrimage to forsake the works of darkness, yet will be forced to look upon those behind these works, in all of their hideousness, at the moment when we need Christ the most?

The doctrine also seems to leave little room for His saving grace; discounting the immensity and efficacy of His Atonement. It puts us back in the place set by Evagrius of Pontus, who could pen a treatise on prayer without one mention of Jesus.

 

[ArmyMatt]

For me, it is the thought that we will have to come face-to-face with demons that is most troubling about the Toll-House teaching. We are taught during our earthly pilgrimage to forsake the works of darkness, yet will be forced to look upon those behind these works, in all of their hideousness, at the moment when we need Christ the most?

The doctrine also seems to leave little room for His saving grace; discounting the immensity and efficacy of His Atonement. It puts us back in the place set by Evagrius of Pontus, who could pen a treatise on prayer without one mention of Jesus.

you keep saying that it leaves little room for grace, but that's not true. the saints, angels, and the Lord Himself are also there.

St Porphyios teaches that you pass through the toll houses by letting in Christ's light/grace, and that is what dispells the darkness. it's all about God's grace and mercy.

 

[Lyrasong]

you keep saying that it leaves little room for grace, but that's not true. the saints, angels, and the Lord Himself are also there.

St Porphyios teaches that you pass through the toll houses by letting in Christ's light/grace, and that is what dispells the darkness. it's all about God's grace and mercy.

It has been many years since I read the book by Fr Seraphim Rose on this subject, but I’m going to try to locate it and give it another read.

As I recall, the book was written as a response to the many ‘near death’ experiences that were being popularized at the time. In various accounts, people began describing encounters with a loving being of light who did not judge them, regardless of their religion. After returning to life, they felt no sense of conviction and most did not turn to the Christian faith. They were unafraid to die ‘again.’ Fr Seraphim was trying to exhort and warn them that judgement would occur for all of us. Whether he was right to emphasize the Toll-House teaching in doing so, only the Lord can answer.

He is our True Judge. Only He can see into our hearts.

King David sang that “the words of the Lord are pure words, even as the silver, which from the earth is tried, and purified seven times in the fire” (Psalm 11:7). The witness of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament is clear and convicting when addressing the issues of death, judgement and how we should live now. It is not dark, murky and fearful like the teaching of the Toll Houses. As my Orthodox pastor and our saintly bishop never conveyed this teaching to us as catechumens, nor afterward, it is hard to understand why it should be emphasized today. And no-one should have to fear looking into a demon’s face as they pass from this world, if they trust in Jesus as their Savior.

 

[icxn]

For me, it is the thought that we will have to come face-to-face with demons that is most troubling about the Toll-House teaching. We are taught during our earthly pilgrimage to forsake the works of darkness, yet will be forced to look upon those behind these works, in all of their hideousness, at the moment when we need Christ the most?

There’s a story in the Desert Fathers of a certain young monk whom the demons troubled with thoughts of vainglory saying to him:

'You are trained, you have become a great man.' He, in response, placed his sins before his eyes, saying, 'And where are all my omissions?' But when his thoughts in the opposite sense said to him, 'You have committed many sins there's no salvation for you', he in his turn replied, 'Yet I say my few prayers to God, and I trust that God will have mercy on me.' Being overcome, the evil spirits appeared to him openly saying, 'We have been disturbed by you.' He asked them why. They said to him, 'When we exalt you, you run to humility; but when we humiliate you, then you rise up through hope.'​

Can you imagine if he were to focus only on his sins? He would have poisoned himself with despair? Or if he were to abuse the hope of salvation? He would have overdose himself with complacency and self-justification. Instead he wisely used the two opposing medicines, fear and hope, at the proper time and dosage to heal the particular spiritual ailment that was troubling him.

The same can be said about the teaching of the tollhouses. It can be very useful to those who struggle with temptations. When the devil (or the flesh) is sweet-talking them to commit some sin they can reply to him, “You say these things now O devil, but when I die you will be demanding a tax for these. Why should I obey you?” Or in the case of our flesh, one can say, “You wish to indulge in your lusts now, but are you prepared to undergo the anguish that is due for these?”

The fear of punishment, like a sword, wounds the devil and destroys his schemes but can also wound the soldier of Christ when used the wrong way. That doesn’t mean we should get rid of it.

The doctrine also seems to leave little room for His saving grace; discounting the immensity and efficacy of His Atonement...

It’s not the doctrine that does that, but its misapplication.

 

[Not David]

It has been many years since I read the book by Fr Seraphim Rose on this subject, but I’m going to try to locate it and give it another read.

As I recall, the book was written as a response to the many ‘near death’ experiences that were being popularized at the time. In various accounts, people began describing encounters with a loving being of light who did not judge them, regardless of their religion. After returning to life, they felt no sense of conviction and most did not turn to the Christian faith. They were unafraid to die ‘again.’ Fr Seraphim was trying to exhort and warn them that judgement would occur for all of us. Whether he was right to emphasize the Toll-House teaching in doing so, only the Lord can answer.

He is our True Judge. Only He can see into our hearts.

King David sang that “the words of the Lord are pure words, even as the silver, which from the earth is tried, and purified seven times in the fire” (Psalm 11:7). The witness of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament is clear and convicting when addressing the issues of death, judgement and how we should live now. It is not dark, murky and fearful like the teaching of the Toll Houses. As my Orthodox pastor and our saintly bishop never conveyed this teaching to us as catechumens, nor afterward, it is hard to understand why it should be emphasized today. And no-one should have to fear looking into a demon’s face as they pass from this world, if they trust in Jesus as their Savior.

The verse "workout your salvation with fear and tremble" and the one about "wrestling with spiritual powers" are dark.

You know that Orthodoxy believes in Helll and a possibility of losing salvation? So why do you think that part is the worst?

I started this thread as a joke so I will tell someone to close it.

 

[St. Helens]

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