Tollhouses!

[Lukaris]

Thank you - will follow up with those links. The Toll-House teaching is something that I’ve long struggled with.

The article I linked actually supports the doctrine but acknowledges that it is not an article of required faith. Personally I just avoid it and fail to see how it is helpful.

 

[Lyrasong]

The article I linked actually supports the doctrine but acknowledges that it is not an article of required faith. Personally I just avoid it and fail to see how it is helpful.

Yes, I saw that, and the author provides several angles from which to view the Toll-House teaching. We must ever keep our eyes upon Jesus for, as the psalmist asked, If thou, O Lord, should mark iniquities, who could stand?

 

[ArmyMatt]

for the first, even if I continue to fall into sin in this life through their temptations?

And second, that is true, and the only comfort I can really hold to. God wants to save us, I just worry that my cold-heartedness towards Him will eventually be my destruction

yes, the Christian walk is a marathon not a sprint.

if you are worried about your cold heartedness, God can use that worry to save you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

How is the assumption bad? Do you think that a Hard Shell Baptist with Bible in hand, living on the American frontier, would readily agree to a doctrine of Toll Houses? His or her life was likely more challenging than that of any monastic today.

Be that as it may, the teachings of some of the Fathers and other saints honored in the Orthodox Church do speak of the Toll Houses. Though these people thrived centuries after Christ, we are supposed to accept their experiences and writings, without question. What really seems to have happened is that a hellenized and sometimes gnostic view of the Gospel overtook what remained to it from its origins in communal Judaism (though the influence of the Essenes played its part). Thus, we see persons leaving their family units following the establishment of Christianity as the state religion. These penitents, dwelling in places aloof, focused upon their individual spiritual lives to extreme, and sometimes unhealthy, degrees. So much of what has come down to us was birthed in this milieu ... including the perception of celestial toll houses.

a hard charging frontier baptist is one thing. the folks who believe in the prosperity Gospel is another. the latter has a lot more influence today.

actually, you can find the toll houses in Sts Justin Martyr and Hippolytus of Rome. Both of whom were before the monastic explosion in the Egyptian desert.

and saying it's s gnostic influence is just as foolish as saying that the Virgin Birth was just a pagan Egyptian influence.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I pray that the Lord helps to enlarge your heart, so that you will be able to show understanding and mercy to those in your care.

I pray for that as well.

 

[icxn]

The following from Saint John Climacus came to mind while reading this thread:

Sometimes what serves as a medicine for one, is poison for another; and sometimes something given to one and the same person at a suitable time serves as a medicine, but at the wrong time it is a poison.​

If someone is allergic to a certain medicine, why force it on her? It's not like there aren't any other ways (Love of God as opposed to fear) to bring about the desired healing. Isn't that what Saint Porphyrios suggested for our weak generation?

 

[ArmyMatt]

The following from Saint John Climacus came to mind while reading this thread:

Sometimes what serves as a medicine for one, is poison for another; and sometimes something given to one and the same person at a suitable time serves as a medicine, but at the wrong time it is a poison.​

If someone is allergic to a certain medicine, why force it on her? It's not like there aren't any other ways (Love of God as opposed to fear) to bring about the desired healing. Isn't that what Saint Porphyrios suggested for our weak generation?

actually, St Porphyrios teaches that it's the love of Christ and His Light that dispels the demons when one undergoes the toll houses.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

If the toll house proposition is true, it is unambiguously bad news. Of course, sometimes bad things are true; truth doesn’t depend on palatability.

I gladly admit to not having studied this. However I have never seen it in the Fathers and think at best most of them are silent on this issue.

Moreover, I have consulted specifically with a number of Orthodox theologians whom I trust who believe this is not an issue that we should get hung up on. So I don’t. I’m just not very curious about this. If my priest taught this, I would of course look into it. But he doesn’t.

David Bentley Hart, for all his flaws, has an interesting take on this

“I do not like to throw the word “heresy” around myself, for any number of reasons. But one has to grant that, for those who are attentive to the contents of the gospel in its most original expression, most especially in the letters of Paul, the teaching of the toll houses might very well be regarded as the very epitome of heresy: the effective denial of Christ’s conquest, subjugation, and annulment of all the spiritual powers and principalities and agencies that have ever separated us from God. Admittedly, some genuinely holy and venerable teachers of the Orthodox past have promoted the myth. But that is of no consequence. As Paul also says, “even if an angel out of heaven should proclaim to you good tidings that differ from what you received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8).” Nor Height Nor Depth: On the Toll Houses - Public Orthodoxy

I hope he is right.

 

[ArmyMatt]

If the toll house proposition is true, it is unambiguously bad news. Of course, sometimes bad things are true; truth doesn’t depend on palatability.

I gladly admit to not having studied this. However I have never seen it in the Fathers and think at best most of them are silent on this issue.

Moreover, I have consulted specifically with a number of Orthodox theologians whom I trust who believe this is not an issue that we should get hung up on. So I don’t. I’m just not very curious about this. If my priest taught this, I would of course look into it. But he doesn’t.

The inimical David Bentley Hart, for all his flaws, has an interesting take on this

“I do not like to throw the word “heresy” around myself, for any number of reasons. But one has to grant that, for those who are attentive to the contents of the gospel in its most original expression, most especially in the letters of Paul, the teaching of the toll houses might very well be regarded as the very epitome of heresy: the effective denial of Christ’s conquest, subjugation, and annulment of all the spiritual powers and principalities and agencies that have ever separated us from God. Admittedly, some genuinely holy and venerable teachers of the Orthodox past have promoted the myth. But that is of no consequence. As Paul also says, “even if an angel out of heaven should proclaim to you good tidings that differ from what you received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8).” Nor Height Nor Depth: On the Toll Houses - Public Orthodoxy

I hope he is right.

it's all over the place in the Fathers. Sts Justin Martyr, Anthony the great, Athanasios of Alexandria, Ephraim the Syrian, Theophan the recluse, Ignatius Briancheninov, John of Kronstadt, Seraphim of Sarov, Sophrony of Essex, John Chrysostom, Macarius the great, Theognostos the great ascetic, John Maximovitch, Nektarios of Aegina, Paisios of Athos, Joseph the hesychast, Nikolai of Ziccha, Justin Popovich, and Porphyrios to name a few.

all of them are wrong but the universalist-marcionist is right?

not only that, but of course the demons are powerless. they are powerless now, but they still flatter and accuse us now. it's not a good argument.

 

[icxn]

actually, St Porphyrios teaches that it's the love of Christ and His Light that dispels the demons when one undergoes the toll houses.

I'm not arguing against the teaching - I called it a medicine afterall. All I'm saying is that this medicine is not for everyone. Do you remember what Saint Sophrony told Elder Zacharias of Essex, when the latter confused a lady by telling her to "keep your mind in hell and despair not?"

Forgive me,
icxn

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm not arguing against the teaching - I called it a medicine afterall. All I'm saying is that this medicine is not for everyone. Do you remember what Saint Sophrony told Elder Zacharias of Essex, when the latter confused a lady by telling her to "keep your mind in hell and despair not?"

Forgive me,
icxn

yes, but we're talking about whether or not something exists. if the toll houses are true or not. if they are, you gotta deal with them whether you like it or not.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

it's all over the place in the Fathers. Sts Justin Martyr, Anthony the great, Athanasios of Alexandria, Ephraim the Syrian, Theophan the recluse, Ignatius Briancheninov, John of Kronstadt, Seraphim of Sarov, Sophrony of Essex, John Chrysostom, Macarius the great, Theognostos the great ascetic, John Maximovitch, Nektarios of Aegina, Paisios of Athos, Joseph the hesychast, Nikolai of Ziccha, Justin Popovich, and Porphyrios to name a few.

all of them are wrong but the universalist-marcionist is right?

not only that, but of course the demons are powerless. they are powerless now, but they still flatter and accuse us now. it's not a good argument.

I certainly haven’t seen it in the Fathers, though I’ve never read them looking for this. But if it is “all over the place”, I haven’t seen it. There is certainly no systematic theological expression of the teaching amongst any Father.

Do you think there is a consensus of the Fathers “everyone, everywhere, always” teaching the toll house teaching? I haven’t seen that. It has never been codified at a council as far as I know. If it is not Orthodox dogma, and I think one would have a difficult case proving it is, then it is at best a theologoumenon and at worst, as Bentley Hart called it perhaps uncharitably, “a myth”.

Christianity is already sufficiently difficult to understand for me without taking on unpalatable teachings not clearly pronounced by the Church. This issue is not clearly pronounced by the Church and in fact there is significant opposition to it, starting with my pastor, the pastors I listen to on AFR, and others.

So I cannot get too excited about this. My advice to those outside of the Church exploring Orthodoxy would be the same I have received: don’t get hung up on this.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I certainly haven’t seen it in the Fathers, though I’ve never read them looking for this. But if it is “all over the place”, I haven’t seen it. There is certainly no systematic theological expression of the teaching amongst any Father.

Do you think there is a consensus of the Fathers “everyone, everywhere, always” teaching the toll house teaching? I haven’t seen that. It has never been codified at a council as far as I know. If it is not Orthodox dogma, and I think one would have a difficult case proving it is, then it is at best a theologoumenon and at worst, as Bentley Hart called it perhaps uncharitably, “a myth”.

Christianity is already sufficiently difficult to understand for me without taking on unpalatable teachings not clearly pronounced by the Church. This issue is not clearly pronounced by the Church and in fact there is significant opposition to it, starting with my pastor, the pastors I listen to on AFR, and others.

So I cannot get too excited about this. My advice to those outside of the Church exploring Orthodoxy would be the same I have received: don’t get hung up on this.

if you are looking for it as exact as St Theodora's vision, then no. you won't. however, practically everyone who affirms the teaching (and every saint), simply says that as the soul departs, the demons are ready for one final assault on the soul. THAT you do find everywhere in the Fathers, not to mention our liturgical life.

 

[Not David]

a hard charging frontier baptist is one thing. the folks who believe in the prosperity Gospel is another. the latter has a lot more influence today.

actually, you can find the toll houses in Sts Justin Martyr and Hippolytus of Rome. Both of whom were before the monastic explosion in the Egyptian desert.

and saying it's s gnostic influence is just as foolish as saying that the Virgin Birth was just a pagan Egyptian influence.

I don't know why some Orthodox use Protestant-like arguments when trying to debunk the tollhouses.

Stuff like "it is not on the Bible, it is pagan, God's love would never do that".

 

[Not David]

it's all over the place in the Fathers. Sts Justin Martyr, Anthony the great, Athanasios of Alexandria, Ephraim the Syrian, Theophan the recluse, Ignatius Briancheninov, John of Kronstadt, Seraphim of Sarov, Sophrony of Essex, John Chrysostom, Macarius the great, Theognostos the great ascetic, John Maximovitch, Nektarios of Aegina, Paisios of Athos, Joseph the hesychast, Nikolai of Ziccha, Justin Popovich, and Porphyrios to name a few.

all of them are wrong but the universalist-marcionist is right?

not only that, but of course the demons are powerless. they are powerless now, but they still flatter and accuse us now. it's not a good argument.

It reminds me of an universalist in General Theology who always bring DBH and I asked if Hart was infallible and why he did not become Orthodox like Hart.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

if you are looking for it as exact as St Theodora's vision, then no. you won't. however, practically everyone who affirms the teaching (and every saint), simply says that as the soul departs, the demons are ready for one final assault on the soul. THAT you do find everywhere in the Fathers, not to mention our liturgical life.

But that is very different from a systematic theological expression of the teaching. One cannot suggest there is a consensus of the Fathers for an elaborate teaching on toll houses based on such simple references.

By the way, I just hit 1000 posts. I’m not sure whether to be proud or embarrassed. A bit of both I suppose.

 

[Lukaris]

I do not look up most of arguments against toll houses online because some individuals, like Fr Lazar ( Puhalo), seem to exhibit heretical notions ( like soul sleep).

There seem to be problems within the toll tradition too as to who actually said what in some instances, It seems like nothing can be questioned like whether the Theotokos prayed to avoid the toll houses, I never saw them mentioned in formal theology of St. John of Damascus yet abound (in ways that are probably unverified) in hymns attributed to him. The Theodora vision is part of this tradition regardless also.

To those it helps good, but it does not help all of us. I have heard good natured Orthodox people tell me that we should share communion with non Orthodox, or people think I’m a bit serious for mentioning the 10 commandments every few full (not blue) moons, people who have lost basic knowledge of faith. These are good people who were properly pastored to but still become oblivious. What is this doctrine going to do for them?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't know why some Orthodox use Protestant-like arguments when trying to debunk the tollhouses.

Stuff like "it is not on the Bible, it is pagan, God's love would never do that".

it's because we in the West struggle with a Western mindset.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It reminds me of an universalist in General Theology who always bring DBH and I asked if Hart was infallible and why he did not become Orthodox like Hart.

unfortunately, you can't be Orthodox like Hart until Hart becomes Orthodox.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But that is very different from a systematic theological expression of the teaching. One cannot suggest there is a consensus of the Fathers for an elaborate teaching on toll houses based on such simple references.

By the way, I just hit 1000 posts. I’m not sure whether to be proud or embarrassed. A bit of both I suppose.

that's the thing, the only ones who look for a systematic breakdown of the teaching are the ones who discount it. even Fr Seraphim Rose warns against taking the toll houses literally as something you can't do.

and congrats!