Tollhouses!

[ArmyMatt]

How would you say that vigilance differs from fear or caution?

it just means to be aware. you are aware of the demons and what they do.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you, but I just do not see this doctrine in Scripture. Saint Paul tells us that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. Our Lord, Himself, assured the Good Thief from the Cross ... that that very day, he would be with Him in Paradise.

A real problem with the belief in aerial Toll Houses is that it removes the Lord’s saving death as the means for our justification, and places it right back on our own worthiness (or, lack thereof). It causes us to be self-centered, rather than to place our trust and hope in Jesus Christ. It makes us fearful, when we have been told that God’s perfect love casts out fear.

I have read Fr Seraphim Rose’s book, btw, though it was some years ago.

just because the Lord assured the Wise Thief, that doesn't mean we all get that assurance, especially since none of us are dying on the Cross beside Him.

as to your second point, that's just a strawman. it doesn't remove the saving death of Christ, as it's His saving death which rendered them powerless. it's all about trusting in Christ.

plus it's in basically every Father who talks about death, our hymns, prayers, icons, etc.

 

[Lyrasong]

personally, I think it's because it clashes with our American love of ease.

There have been many times throughout our short history when Americans have been at anything but at ease, yet they would have stringently objected to the teaching on Toll Houses, as being contrary to the Bible and the teachings of the Lord, as they knew and served Him.

 

[Lyrasong]

just because the Lord assured the Wise Thief, that doesn't mean we all get that assurance, especially since none of us are dying on the Cross beside Him.

as to your second point, that's just a strawman. it doesn't remove the saving death of Christ, as it's His saving death which rendered them powerless. it's all about trusting in Christ.

plus it's in basically every Father who talks about death, our hymns, prayers, icons, etc.

Yes, I anticipated your falling back on the immediacy of the situation, when the good thief hung upon the cross beside our Lord. But those words were uttered by Jesus Himself, and they were preserved for those of us who trust in Him ... who believe and have yet to see Him. His words are worth far more than the utterances and writings of millennia of ‘fathers.’

The truth is that the belief in Toll Houses sticks out from Orthodoxy like a sore thumb, and keeps many walking in darkness and fear. Furthermore, it comes close to preaching a different gospel than what was given to us by the Holy Apostles.

You know, it is almost as if monasticism is its own religion, at times, within Orthodoxy. The idea of having to give up striving in spirit, as is bread and butter in the Desert, is inconceivable within this tradition, and so it must be prolonged ... even after death.

 

[Not David]

Yes, I anticipated your falling back on the immediacy of the situation, when the good thief hung upon the cross beside our Lord. But those words were uttered by Jesus Himself, and they were preserved for those of us who trust in Him ... who believe and have yet to see Him. His words are worth far more than the utterances and writings of millennia of ‘fathers.’

The truth is that the belief in Toll Houses sticks out from Orthodoxy like a sore thumb, and keeps many walking in darkness and fear. Furthermore, it comes close to preaching a different gospel than what was given to us by the Holy Apostles.

He also wasn't baptised, so does that mean Baptism doesn't save?

 

[Lyrasong]

He also wasn't baptised, so does that mean Baptism doesn't save?

Our Lord and His Apostles commanded us to be baptized, so we follow that direction and receive forgiveness of our sins and abundant grace. For those of us who have had a chance to know Jesus, we must respond by receiving Him into our hearts.

Our Lord knew the heart of the Good Thief, and counted the faith He found there unto righteousness.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There have been many times throughout our short history when Americans have been at anything but at ease, yet they would have stringently objected to the teaching on Toll Houses, as being contrary to the Bible and the teachings of the Lord, as they knew and served Him.

that's just an assertion.

 

[ArmyMatt]

His words are worth far more than the utterances and writings of millennia of ‘fathers.’

The truth is that the belief in Toll Houses sticks out from Orthodoxy like a sore thumb, and keeps many walking in darkness and fear. Furthermore, it comes close to preaching a different gospel than what was given to us by the Holy Apostles.

if it's been preached by the Fathers for millennia, then it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb unless that's a part of the Church's teaching that one just doesn't like. and saying it preaches a different Gospel is just an assertion. you're not actually backing up what you are saying.

Yes, I anticipated your falling back on the immediacy of the situation, when the good thief hung upon the cross beside our Lord. But those words were uttered by Jesus Himself, and they were preserved for those of us who trust in Him ... who believe and have yet to see Him.

that's not a relevant point. the thief wasn't you. there are plenty of others who heard the encouragement from the Lord as they were going through the toll houses.

You know, it is almost as if monasticism is its own religion, at times, within Orthodoxy. The idea of having to give up striving in spirit, as is bread and butter in the Desert, is inconceivable within this tradition, and so it must be prolonged ... even after death.

if that were true, you wouldn't have non-monastics experience it and defend it.

 

[Lyrasong]

that's just an assertion.

It certainly is, but one with some research standing beneath it.

I think I see where your view is coming from. It is the idea that Elder Ephraim restored a ‘pure,’ Athonite monasticism to the United States, but that we in the modern West are too soft to receive it ... is it not?

 

[AMM]

it just means to be aware. you are aware of the demons and what they do.

so if I know that demons tempt me now, then I'll be prepared to resist them in the future?

Also I saw this quote on the OrthoWiki page of tollhouses and I thought it was interesting.

St. Mark of Ephesus writes:

"But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which – even thought they have repented over them – they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sin, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have said, has not been handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in they very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or – if their sins were more serious and bind them, for a longer duration – they are kept in hell [i.e., Hades], but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard." [5]

Is that the universal Orthodox understanding? Those who depart this life in faith and loved will be saved even if they have some un-repented sins with them. They will be cleansed/purified from these sins through fear (is this the tollhouses?), through time/a delay, or through a temporary experience in Hades, before they arrive at the place where they worship God and are honored with blessing?

 

[Lyrasong]

if it's been preached by the Fathers for millennia, then it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb unless that's a part of the Church's teaching that one just doesn't like. and saying it preaches a different Gospel is just an assertion. you're not actually backing up what you are saying.



that's not a relevant point. the thief wasn't you. there are plenty of others who heard the encouragement from the Lord as they were going through the toll houses.



if that were true, you wouldn't have non-monastics experience it and defend it.

I believe that the Toll Houses are a terrible teaching. What are we supposed to tell a dying child in the face of such a belief?

Those with whom I have been, who were passing away, were not afraid. My own mother was reaching upward, filled with joy, because she could see Jesus, the angels and deceased family members. Dying loved ones are supposed to go from a scene like that - so close to Glory - into darkness, whilst being accused by the wretched demons?

When I converted to Orthodoxy almost thirty-five years ago, nothing about the Toll Houses was given as instruction. I first learnt of them much later, from Fr Seraphim Rose’s book. We were told back then that the Orthodox Church did not teach a doctrine of Purgatory, for which I was thankful. Now, the latter seems like a comfort. At least in Purgatory, one finds a safe (if painful) place of purification, where all are looking toward God and His Son.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It certainly is, but one with some research standing beneath it.

I think I see where your view is coming from. It is the idea that Elder Ephraim restored a ‘pure,’ Athonite monasticism to the United States, but that we in the modern West are too soft to receive it ... is it not?

nope. that's just an assumption, and a bad one at that. but no, legit monasticism existed long before Elder Ephraim came to the States.

plus, the toll houses are long before the founding of Athos and in many other non-Athonite nations.

so, no.

 

[ArmyMatt]

so if I know that demons tempt me now, then I'll be prepared to resist them in the future?

Also I saw this quote on the OrthoWiki page of tollhouses and I thought it was interesting.

St. Mark of Ephesus writes:

"But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which – even thought they have repented over them – they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sin, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have said, has not been handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in they very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or – if their sins were more serious and bind them, for a longer duration – they are kept in hell [i.e., Hades], but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard." [5]

Is that the universal Orthodox understanding? Those who depart this life in faith and loved will be saved even if they have some un-repented sins with them. They will be cleansed/purified from these sins through fear (is this the tollhouses?), through time/a delay, or through a temporary experience in Hades, before they arrive at the place where they worship God and are honored with blessing?

to your first question, yes.

to your second question, they can be, because God can do what He wants to save us.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I believe that the Toll Houses are a terrible teaching. What are we supposed to tell a dying child in the face of such a belief?

Those with whom I have been, who were passing away, were not afraid. My own mother was reaching upward, filled with joy, because she could see Jesus, the angels and deceased family members. Dying loved ones are supposed to go from a scene like that - so close to Glory - into darkness, whilst being accused by the wretched demons?

When I converted to Orthodoxy almost thirty-five years ago, nothing about the Toll Houses was given as instruction. I first learnt of them much later, from Fr Seraphim Rose’s book. We were told back then that the Orthodox Church did not teach a doctrine of Purgatory, for which I was thankful. Now, the latter seems like a comfort. At least in Purgatory, one finds a safe (if painful) place of purification, where all are looking toward God and His Son.

whether or not you think it's terrible is irrelevant to its truth or not. so that's a pretty absurd point.

you tell a dying child that in their purity, the demons have nothing on them, so they just shoot through them without even noticing.

to your mother, same possibly applies.

Fr Seraphim Rose didn't originate the teaching. so that's also a bad point to make.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Thank you ... will check it out.

You're welcome.


.

 

[AMM]

to your first question, yes.

to your second question, they can be, because God can do what He wants to save us.

for the first, even if I continue to fall into sin in this life through their temptations?

And second, that is true, and the only comfort I can really hold to. God wants to save us, I just worry that my cold-heartedness towards Him will eventually be my destruction

 

[Lyrasong]

nope. that's just an assumption, and a bad one at that. but no, legit monasticism existed long before Elder Ephraim came to the States.

plus, the toll houses are long before the founding of Athos and in many other non-Athonite nations.

so, no.

How is the assumption bad? Do you think that a Hard Shell Baptist with Bible in hand, living on the American frontier, would readily agree to a doctrine of Toll Houses? His or her life was likely more challenging than that of any monastic today.

Be that as it may, the teachings of some of the Fathers and other saints honored in the Orthodox Church do speak of the Toll Houses. Though these people thrived centuries after Christ, we are supposed to accept their experiences and writings, without question. What really seems to have happened is that a hellenized and sometimes gnostic view of the Gospel overtook what remained to it from its origins in communal Judaism (though the influence of the Essenes played its part). Thus, we see persons leaving their family units following the establishment of Christianity as the state religion. These penitents, dwelling in places aloof, focused upon their individual spiritual lives to extreme, and sometimes unhealthy, degrees. So much of what has come down to us was birthed in this milieu ... including the perception of celestial toll houses.

 

[Lukaris]

A layperson is not required to observe this teaching.

subject of the toll-houses is not specifically a topic of Orthodox Christian theology : it is not a dogma of the Church in the precise sense, but comprises material of a moral and edifying character, one might say pedagogical.


http://orthodoxhistory.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Orthodox-Dogmatic-Theology.pdf#page169

 

[Lyrasong]

whether or not you think it's terrible is irrelevant to its truth or not. so that's a pretty absurd point.

you tell a dying child that in their purity, the demons have nothing on them, so they just shoot through them without even noticing.

to your mother, same possibly applies.

Fr Seraphim Rose didn't originate the teaching. so that's also a bad point to make.

I pray that the Lord helps to enlarge your heart, so that you will be able to show understanding and mercy to those in your care.

 

[Lyrasong]

A layperson is not required to observe this teaching.

subject of the toll-houses is not specifically a topic of Orthodox Christian theology : it is not a dogma of the Church in the precise sense, but comprises material of a moral and edifying character, one might say pedagogical.


http://orthodoxhistory.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Orthodox-Dogmatic-Theology.pdf#page169

Thank you - will follow up with those links. The Toll-House teaching is something that I’ve long struggled with.