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Today in paradise

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Tellyontellyon, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:59 PM.

  1. Tellyontellyon

    Tellyontellyon Member

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    Luke 23:42-43
    New International Version
    42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]”

    43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

    When a saved Christian dies, do they go directly to heaven, or as some say, stay in the grave... or in some other intermediary?

    Or is there variety in what happens?
     
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  2. Aaron_Bethlhm

    Aaron_Bethlhm Member

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    There's not only variety, there's a lot of solid contradiction/ opposition to the info you just posted.
    Search the various translations online for starters, if you care to. If searching for the truth, it leads to great reward.
     
  3. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Disagreements about that within the Christian community.

    Much much much scripture about one being dormant in the grave (described as sleep) until Jesus returns and the 1st resurrection happens.

    Everyone ... not just Christians are dormant in the grave and will be in either the 1st resurrection (of the saved) or the 2nd resurrection (of the lost)

    Like I said much scripture on this ....

    also .... if people "go somewhere" after earthly death then that belief dismisses the resurrections.

    Some claim we have a immortal "soul" (spirit) that goes somewhere. The bible teaches we are mortal and do NOT become immortal until Jesus returns.

    1 Thessalonians 4

    The Return of the Lord

    13 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

    16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

    18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    1 Corinthians 15

    51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

    We are not immortal in any way.
     
  4. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Hello @Tellyontellyon, the historic Christian church, in its entirety (Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist, etc.), has always taught that Christians go home to be with the Lord when we die, even as our physical bodies lie interred in the ground.

    The belief that has/is held by some, including certain cults, in opposition to the church's belief is a heresy that is known as, "the sleep of the soul". If you'd care to read them, here are a few of the Bible passages that convinced the church that we are conscious in death (soul/spirit), both Christians and non-Christians alike, actually.

    Luke 16
    19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
    20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
    21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
    22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom [paradise]; and the rich man also died and was buried.
    23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
    25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
    26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
    27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
    28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
    29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
    30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
    31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’


    2 Corinthians 5
    6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
    7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
    8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
    9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.


    Philippians 1
    21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
    22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
    23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
    24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
    25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
    26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.


    Revelation 6
    9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
    10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
    11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
    .
    Finally, here are some of the arguments that are made against soul sleep on the basis of the Scriptures that I just posted above.

    1) How can the Scriptures cited above be true if the dead in Christ remain unconscious in the ground until the Judgment (Bema Seat)?

    2) How can those who are absent from the body make it their aim to do anything, much less to be well-pleasing to the Lord (in death, as in life), if they/their souls are not conscious when they are with Him after they die?

    3) How could St. Paul have possibly believed it better to depart and be with Christ, if "being with Christ" meant nothing more than lying interred in an unconscious state until the end of the age?

    4) How could the Apostle say that, "to die is gain", if dying means nothing more than lying dead in the ground with our bodies until the resurrection?

    5) Finally, how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice", if their souls are not conscious in death?​

    It's because of passages like the ones I posted above that Christianity has always taught that the doctrine of the "sleep of the soul" is heretical .. :preach:

    Yours and His,
    David
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 2:57 PM
  5. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    was Jesus a heretic then? .... Lazarus is asleep .... Lazarus is dead.

    John 11

    11 After He (Jesus) had said this, He told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up.12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.

    13 They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,

    15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    No commas in the greek text that Luke was writing.

    Luke 23
    42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

    They also had not bold or underline in that early Greek text. :)

    But the context is set by the question "when you come into your kingdom".

    So it is no surprise that in John 20 we have this said by Jesus on the say of His resurrection.
    7 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father;

    Jesus did not go to paradise that day - and neither did the thief on the cross.

    ===========================

    According to the Bible

    Paradise is in the 3rd heaven 2 Cor 12
    such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words,


    It is where the throne of God is -- Rev 2, Rev 22

    Rev 2: 7 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.’

    Rev 22: And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
     
  7. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Hello @eleos1954, John 11:1-46 makes it plain for us that Mary and Martha's brother died, that his body was embalmed and that it lay in the tomb for four days, and that the Lord brought him back to physical life afterwards.

    Does John 11 tell us anything about Lazarus' soul/spirit?

    Thanks!

    God bless you!

    --David
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 2:59 PM
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    1. Rev 6 is apocalyptic writing with symbolic statements aplenty.
    2. Nothing in 2 Cor 5 argues for the "dead in Christ" of 1Thess 4 not being as described in 1Thess 4

    1 Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.


    How can you exegete the texts in the Bible that speak to that 1Thess 4 topic by completely ignoring them??


    1. You did not quote even one text saying "those who are absent from the body make it their aim to do something'


    The John 11 "dormant" state (also in 1 Thess 4:13-19) is not a state where we are conscious of the passing of time so then "no waiting" there at all. Just an "instant" between death and resurrection from the POV of one who dies.

    1. Paul mentions 3 states of man in 2Cor 5:1-10
    a. alive in this decaying tent.
    b. unclothed (between death and resurrection)
    c. clothed with the immortal body from heaven at the resurrection.

    As we see also in 1Cor 15 - the immortal body is given at the resurrection.

    The John 11 "dormant" state (also in 1 Thess 4:13-19) is not a state where we are conscious of the passing of time so then "no waiting" there at all. Just an "instant" between death and resurrection from the POV of one who dies.





    1. You did not quote any text saying someone in paradise was "crying out" or "under an altar".
    2. you did not quote any text saying that someone in Hades was "under an alter"
    3. Luke 16 is a parable --- and includes prayers to the dead instead of prayers to God.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 3:04 PM
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Yes --

    John 11
    Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus died,
     
  10. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    well ... you should go down a littler further in John 11 ...


    17When Jesus arrived, He found that Lazarus had already spent four days in the tomb. 18Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, a little less than two miles away, 19and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them in the loss of their brother. 20So when Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet Him; but Mary stayed at home.21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But even now I know that God will give You whatever You ask of Him.23“Your brother will rise again, Jesus told her.

    24 Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies.

    26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?

    and Martha is correct .... we (believers) don't die (2nd death) and will be resurrected on the last day .... that's why Jesus calls it a sleep ... we will be resurrected on the last day.
     
  11. Aaron_Bethlhm

    Aaron_Bethlhm Member

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    .... and since Jesus Himself was not in paradise the day He was buried, ..... He ascended later as Scripture verifies .... no one was with Jesus in paradise the day He was buried. This is usually not discussed... it is too awkward.
     
  12. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Yes ... is true ... Jesus Himself did not ascend that very day.

    John 20

    Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
    …16Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”). 17Do not cling to Me, Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.
     
  13. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Death is a continuation of our life........... I think you should give this a read.

    The Orthodox Faith - Volume IV - Spirituality - The Kingdom of Heaven - Heaven and Hell

    I find it very interesting and compelling although, I don't completely buy into it. There are many reasons to also support the more literal, Latin view of the after life as a "place" you go to etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 4:02 PM
  14. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Hello @eleos1954, I answered one of your questions, but that's as far as I'm willing to go. If you (and @BobRyan) want to debate, this board, Exploring Christianity, is not the place to do so (take note of this board's SOP).

    You're free to believe whatever you want to believe, of course, and to state those beliefs on boards like this one, but if you want to ~debate~ someone else's beliefs, again, this is not the place to do so.

    Quite frankly, I really have no desire to discuss this particular issue anyway, because it has been/remains settled theology within the church (as a whole) for millennia now. The Christian church continually argues and bickers over all kinds of different doctrinal issues (as I'm certain that you are both aware), but where the entirety of the church speaks in agreement as one (like we do concerning this doctrine), I would think it reason enough to at least pause and try to understand why we do.

    But that's just me :) As I said above, you are both free to believe whatever you want to believe (especially concerning doctrines like this one).

    --David
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 4:09 PM
  15. Tellyontellyon

    Tellyontellyon Member

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    Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today..."

    Today?
     
  16. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    well perhaps talk to the person that originally posted ... and/or get it moved to a more appropriate forum

    it's good to get different viewpoints ... people can (and should) study out these matters for themselves.

    God Bless.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    SOP "You may point out that there is a differing viewpoint, but please do not use this forum to debate"

    So then for example - I would never post something like

     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    So then explaining how that all works -- is the focus of the posts on this thread.

    Not sure that this area of CF is trying to exclude this kind of topic.
     
  19. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    This article may prove to be useful to you.

    Question: "What did Jesus mean when He said, ‘Today you will be with me in paradise’?"

    Answer: It is common knowledge that punctuation, including commas, was introduced into the biblical manuscripts centuries after the books were completed. Therefore, commas are not authoritative.

    However, the placement of commas can affect our understanding of a text. For example, in Luke 23, one of the thieves crucified next to Jesus says, “‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ Jesus answered him, ‘I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise’” (verses 42-43). Commas help us keep the original phrasing intact. Was Jesus saying, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me . . .” (meaning that “today” is when the thief would be in paradise)? Or was He saying, “I tell you the truth today, you will be with me . . .” (meaning that “today” is when Jesus was speaking”)?

    First, we note that every major Bible translation inserts the comma before the word today. Thus, the KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, ESV, and RSV all agree that Jesus was speaking of the time that the thief would enter paradise. The thief would be in paradise with Jesus on that very same day.

    Also, Jesus prefaced His response with the phrase, “I tell you the truth” (“Verily I say unto thee” in the KJV). Many scholars have noticed that Jesus uses this as a prefix phrase when He is about to say something that should be listened to with care. Seventy-six times in the New Testament, Jesus uses the phrase. Interestingly, no one but Jesus ever says it. When the Lord says “I tell you the truth,” He is affirming that what He is about to say is worthy of special attention. It was Jesus’ way of saying, “Listen up! What I’m about to say is very important and should be listened to carefully.” We’re too used to hearing the phrase to appreciate the astonishing authority it expresses and the often solemn nature of the announcement that follows. In every one of the 76 times Christ uses this introductory phrase, He simply says it and then makes a startling statement.

    It would be strange indeed if, in this one instance, Jesus departed from His normal way of making His signature statement by adding the word today to it. In every case where this sort of introductory phrase is used, Greek scholars add a punctuation break after the phrase in question and before the rest of the statement. So, the translators have it right. The comma in Luke 23:43 belongs where they put it.

    This brings us to another question. If Jesus was buried and rose after three days and then many days later ascended to heaven, how could He have been in paradise with the thief?

    After Christ died, it was His body that was buried in the tomb. However, Jesus’ spirit/soul was not in the tomb. Jesus’ spirit was in the Father’s presence (Luke 23:46; Ephesians 4:8). See more information in our article here.

    As Jesus was hanging on the cross, paying our penalty for sin, He made a promise to a dying, repentant thief. By the grace of God and the power of Christ, that promise was kept. The thief’s sins were washed away, and his death that day was his entrance to paradise. ~What did Jesus mean when He said, “Today you will be with me in paradise”? | GotQuestions.org
    --David
    p.s. - this short article might be helpful too: What Is Paradise?
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Indeed "truly I tell you today you WILL be with Me in Paradise" Luke 23 - the answer is inline with the request.... he would be with Christ "when" Christ comes into His kindgom

    42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me WHEN You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you WILL be with Me in Paradise.”

    Where in fact Jesus said He did not go to paradise even as of His resurrection in John 20:17

    ================

    All Bible scholars agree that Luke had no commas in his text.


    Luke 23:43

    the literal rendering of the Greek:

    καὶ [And] εἶπεν [he said] αὐτῷ [to him] Ἀμήν [Truly] σοι [to you] λέγω [I say] σήμερον [today] μετ [with] ἐμοῦ [me] ἔσῃ [you will be] ἐν [in] τῷ [the] Παραδείσῳ [Paradise]

    As we can see, the Greek says without reversing word order, “Truly to you I say today with me you will be in Paradise.”

    1. P(75) is the earliest Greek Manuscript of Luke (Early third century) – and has no comma and no high-or-low point on either side of sēmeron (Today)
    a. Commas came into use in the 9th century A.D.


    “In the early Christian centuries, New Testament (NT) manuscripts were written without separation between words and sentences; little or no punctuation was used to indicate how the text should be read. The comma, for example, was introduced as late as the ninth century; before that, short pauses were sometimes indicated by means of a point on the line ( . ), while full stops were indicated by a high point ( ˙ ).

    Though no NT autograph has survived, most likely originally Luke 23:43 had no punctuation of any kind, as Papyrus Bodmer XIV-XV (or simply P75) seems to demonstrate. Written at the beginning of the third century, P75 is our oldest copy of Luke and it has no point either before or after sēmeron in our passage, though some punctuation can be found here and there.”
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020 at 7:17 AM
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