To what extent has God Predestined Us?

[newton3005]

Romans 8:29 says, “For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” What to make of that passage? Are there those whom God didn’t foreknew? Does God, having foreknown everyone, chose among those to be predestined to conform to the image of Jesus? What about the rest?

Does that bring a new consideration to John 3:16 which says that God so loved THE WORLD that He sent His son so that whoever believes in him will have eternal life? In the possible context of Romans 8:29, is THE WORLD that God so loves limited to those He chooses to offer the light of Jesus? If so, then what about the rest of the world?

And when Jesus tells his disciples to spread the word that whoever believes in him will be saved, did he have certain people in mind to spread the word to? His disciples earmarked certain provinces to spread the word. But as time went on, certain people in those provinces took it upon themselves to spread the word beyond where they lived, acting as missionaries, having interpreted the clause “all the world” in Mark 16:15-16 to be ALL THE WORLD as opposed to all the world whom God chose, which may be different than the part of the world whom God may not have chosen.

Consider that when Rebekah was pregnant with Jacob and Esau, God says to her in Genesis 25:23, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.” In terms of Romans 9:10-16, God elected Jacob to be the stronger one, and Jacob goes on to be the father of the twelve tribes of Israel who in turn became God’s Chosen People. And it followed that Jesus and his disciples, and those who followed in their footsteps, enlightened people in the rest of the world as to their inheritance from Abraham if they believe in God through Lord Jesus.

It’s obvious that not all the people in the rest of the world were enlightened, as we see from their actions. Are these people the nation of Esau, whom God condemned before he was even born? Has God predetermined their destiny as He did the nation of Jacob, aka Israel, who include people by lineage to Jacob and also by inheritance from Abraham?

Consider Proverbs 16:9 which says, “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” By inference, this includes all of man. That is, God has laid out our paths as he laid out the paths of Jacob and Esau. The heart of each of us, in turn, determines how we are to operate within the path that God established for us.

In the context of Jacob and Esau, God has already determined who wins and who loses, it seems. It seems the winners are among those whom God has chosen to receive His Blessings if they love Him and love eachother. Can those blessings be extended to those whom God may not have predestined for goodness if those people love God and eachother as well? Is this last question an oxymoron?

 

[Al Touthentop]

Romans 8:29 says, “For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” What to make of that passage? Are there those whom God didn’t foreknew? Does God, having foreknown everyone, chose among those to be predestined to conform to the image of Jesus? What about the rest?

He didn't predestine us individually. He predestined the plan of salvation which included Christ's sacrifice but he did also foreknow who would obey and who wouldn't.

God's predestination in this sense is a bit like the old saying, "If I would have known your were coming, I'd have baked you a cake."

God knew we were coming and baked a cake.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

In the context of Jacob and Esau, God has already determined who wins and who loses, it seems.

Consider this. God chose a "direct line" to bring in the Messiah, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This does not mean that everyone else loses. As we know Jacobs family line leads directly to our Savior while others are part of that line as the remnant, The Body of Christ. God has foreknowledge of those who choose Him just as He knows who does not. He does not wish that anyone suffer the second death.
Blessings

 

[Dave L]

Romans 8:29 says, “For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” What to make of that passage? Are there those whom God didn’t foreknew? Does God, having foreknown everyone, chose among those to be predestined to conform to the image of Jesus? What about the rest?

Does that bring a new consideration to John 3:16 which says that God so loved THE WORLD that He sent His son so that whoever believes in him will have eternal life? In the possible context of Romans 8:29, is THE WORLD that God so loves limited to those He chooses to offer the light of Jesus? If so, then what about the rest of the world?

And when Jesus tells his disciples to spread the word that whoever believes in him will be saved, did he have certain people in mind to spread the word to? His disciples earmarked certain provinces to spread the word. But as time went on, certain people in those provinces took it upon themselves to spread the word beyond where they lived, acting as missionaries, having interpreted the clause “all the world” in Mark 16:15-16 to be ALL THE WORLD as opposed to all the world whom God chose, which may be different than the part of the world whom God may not have chosen.

Consider that when Rebekah was pregnant with Jacob and Esau, God says to her in Genesis 25:23, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you3 shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.” In terms of Romans 9:10-16, God elected Jacob to be the stronger one, and Jacob goes on to be the father of the twelve tribes of Israel who in turn became God’s Chosen People. And it followed that Jesus and his disciples, and those who followed in their footsteps, enlightened people in the rest of the world as to their inheritance from Abraham if they believe in God through Lord Jesus.

It’s obvious that not all the people in the rest of the world were enlightened, as we see from their actions. Are these people the nation of Esau, whom God condemned before he was even born? Has God predetermined their destiny as He did the nation of Jacob, aka Israel, who include people by lineage to Jacob and so by inheritance from Abraham?

Consider Proverbs 16:9 which says, “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.” By inference, this includes all of man. That is, God has laid out our paths as he laid out the paths of Jacob and Esau. The heart of each of us, in turn, determines how we are to operate within the path that God established for us.

In the context of Jacob and Esau, God has already determined who wins and who loses, it seems. It seems the winners are among those whom God has chosen to receive His Blessings if they love Him and love eachother. Can those blessings be extended to those whom God may not have predestined for goodness if those people love God and eachother as well? Is this last question an oxymoron?

Here's the balance: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 (KJV 1900)

 

[Al Touthentop]

And when Jesus tells his disciples to spread the word that whoever believes in him will be saved, did he have certain people in mind to spread the word to?

Yes. Everyone.

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

And then they did.

And Paul tells the Colossians:

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[Dave L]

Yes. Everyone.

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

And then they did.

And Paul tells the Colossians:

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

If God has not predestined everything, what he didn't predestinate would predestine him causing him to react to it.

 

[royal priest]

It’s obvious that not all the people in the rest of the world were enlightened, as we see from their actions. Are these people the nation of Esau, whom God condemned before he was even born? Has God predetermined their destiny as He did the nation of Jacob, aka Israel, who include people by lineage to Jacob and so by inheritance from Abraham?

Acts 17:26-29
From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination.
In so many words, Paul is saying here that God determines our worldviews. Are people able to believe something other than what they are taught?

 

[Mr. M]

In the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
The Kingdom of Heaven is like treasure hid in a field...
Seek and you will find...
He foreknew who would seek, and made them his treasured possession.
1 Co 6:20. For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.
Natural Israel is unique because of the patriarchs.
Psalm 135:4. For the LORD has chosen Jacob to be his own, Israel to be his treasured possession.
Romans 11:28. As far as the Gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.

 

[Al Touthentop]

If God has not predestined everything, what he didn't predestinate would predestine him causing him to react to it.

Yes, the 'God has limits and is defined by man's understanding' theory.

 

[Al Touthentop]

In the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
The Kingdom of Heaven is like treasure hid in a field...
Seek and you will find...
He foreknew who would seek, and made them his treasured possession.
1 Co 6:20. For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.
Natural Israel is unique because of the patriarchs.

Natural Israel that existed at that time, not the Israel that today rejects Christ.

They were preached the gospel first. The remnant accepted it and there is even a remnant today which accepts the Gospel. The 'All Israel' which is to be saved is the church.

 

[Religiot]

He didn't predestine us individually. He predestined the plan of salvation which included Christ's sacrifice but he did also foreknow who would obey and who wouldn't.

God's predestination in this sense is a bit like the old saying, "If I would have known your were coming, I'd have baked you a cake."

God knew we were coming and baked a cake.

Wow... No, brother, no, not at all: did you not know that even the hairs on your head are numbered?

Yes, we've been predestined individually, intimately, because God tells us that that is how he is involved with us.

His power, and ability, is limitless.

 

[Religiot]

If God has not predestined everything, what he didn't predestinate would predestine him causing him to react to it.

You're wrong, brother: God doesn't have to do anything, nor can He be made to react to anything: He is the only being who is truly sovereign.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Wow... No, brother, no, not at all: did you not know that even the hairs on your head are numbered?

Yes. But that doesn't mean I'm an automated robot of Christ. If I follow Christ it is of my own free will as it is of everyone.

Were this the case, there would be no need whatsoever to preach the gospel. The bible does not teach that obedience is forced.

 

[Dave L]

You're wrong, brother: God doesn't have to do anything, nor can He be made to react to anything: He is the only being who is truly sovereign.

So he predestined everything.

 

[Religiot]

Acts 17:26-29
From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination.
In so many words, Paul is saying here that God determines our worldviews. Are people able to believe something other than what they are taught?

Yes, people are able to believe something other than what they've been taught. And God does not determine our worldviews apart from His foreknowledge, otherwise, He would be the cause of sin in us.

 

[Al Touthentop]

So he predestined everything.

If he predestined everything, then he punishes people that he made to disobey him. That is slander against God.

 

[Dave L]

If he predestined everything, then he punishes people that he made to disobey him. That is slander against God.

This is misguided and shows a lack of bible knowledge.

 

[Al Touthentop]

This is misguided and shows a lack of bible knowledge.

What shows a lack of bible knowledge is slandering God by claiming that everything men do is predestined by him.

If God can't regard iniquity, he certainly can't cause it.

 

[royal priest]

Yes, people are able to believe something other than what they've been taught. And God does not determine our worldviews apart from His foreknowledge, otherwise, He would be the cause of sin in us.

Yes, but I purposefully phrased the question the present tense. Can we believe something other than what we are taught. In other words, can we believe something that is not taught to us, for example, in view of this thread, the Gospel message?

 

[Al Touthentop]

Yes, but I purposefully phrased the question the present tense. Can we believe something other than what we are taught. In other words, can we believe something that is not taught to us, for example, in view of this thread, the Gospel message?

People do this all the time when they teach that a person's mere thoughts will save them.