To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question! (2)

BeforeThereWas · Jan 13, 2013

WordofHisPower said:
Likewise can you produce scripture saying they didn't?

What I said is that there is no verse requiring wage earners to hand over any percentage of their monetary income to the Levites. Asking someone to prove a negative speaks only of your lack of understanding.

You assume Abraham's tithe has some sort of parallel to us today, and that wage earners were required to hand over a portion of their monetary wages to the Levites, and therefore the burden of proof is on you, not on me.

I provided all the best scriptures I could find with explanations.

Where did you ever explain any of those verses, except to make generalized statements about their meaning to you? Nowhere did you discuss their actual context, reach, limitations, application, or anything else.

You're trying to turn the NT tithe into a law. It can't be done because Christ redeemed us from the law.

Wrong.

I'm saying that not only does the Law nowhere define the lawful tithe as having anything to do with the monetary wages of wage earners, I also said that Abraham's tithe ALSO had nothing to do with monetary wages of wage earners, and he did not hand over to Melchizedek any portion of his own personal property.

So what do you have left to try and show us the Lord allegedly showed to you?

In a nutshell, you're claiming the Lord Himself misrepresented the scriptures to you. You've quoted and referenced verses throughout the Bible that NOWHERE have anything to do with the monetary wages of wage earners, and then turn around and claim some lord showed you his good pleasure in falsehoods and misrepresentations.

What manner of god does that? It certainly isn't the God described within scripture!

You claimed it was all scriptural, and yet you've misrepresented every one of those verses, totally ignoring almost every question asked of you that you know deep down you can't answer without being exposed as the relativist you are when it comes to scripture. Wishful thinking and presupposition doesn't force scripture to fit into whatever sized box of your personal choosing.

The NT tithe is like the pre-law, non-law tithe. See my earlier post for the 8 applicable scriptures.

There is no pre-law tithe example we can follow. Abraham tithed from spoils. How you people translate over into monetary wages Abraham's tithe, which is NOT an increase, completely escpaes me. I've asked you to explain the correlation, and you still haven't done so.

What are you afraid of when it comes to explaining the parallel you seem to see in those verses?

As for Jacob, we have no evidence he ever fulfilled his promise of a tithe, all of which was established on preconditions he expected the Lord fulfill.

That clearly is NOT an example to us, nor is it something the Lord ever expected of us.

The Lord never demanded a percentage of wages because the Bible NOWHERE defined wages as a form of increase.

Why?

Simply because wages are NOT a form of increase.

Wages are an EXCHANGE of your labors and skills for money.

The multiplication of seed from one seed in soil is an INCREASE, based upon the mechanism the Lord created in nature. Man did not create that mechanism. The multiplication of animals through breding is an INCREASE.

Wages are therefore NOT a form of increase, but rather an EXCHANGE.

See the difference?

BTW

BeforeThereWas · Jan 13, 2013

WordofHisPower said:
Here's 8.

MONEY'S included in these 8

How does the presence of money automatically translate into the wages of wage earners being handed over to religious hirelings? How does that negate giving whatsoever one purposes in his heart to fellow believers in need, as is instructed in scripture?

You said nobody taught you this stuff. I see evidence to the contrary.

NT Pharisee tithe 10% and Christ said to continue doing it.

Jesus also told a man to go and offer up burnt sacrifices at the temple. So what?

Ok. Let's look at the REAL story, shall we?

What was it the pharasee pragged about? He told that he gave a tenth of the PRODUCE from his garden, field, or whatever he had as a place to grow spices, etc. No money is mentioned, only that the pharasee tithed from all. What was the all? Exactly what the Law required, which is a tenth of all the INCREASE from fields, orchards, vineyards, herds and flocks. Nowhere did Jesus reference monetary wages of laborers, the fish caught by fishermen, the wooden items made by carpenters (hint, hint), clothiers, cobblers, or any other trade besides gardeners, farmers, ranchers or herdsmen.

If you disagree, then plaese explain why.

(This mint and herb tithe is no where to be found in any of the OT Mosaic scriptures. Where'd they get the idea to tithe mint and herbs? Might be the same place we get the idea to tithe money? Pharisees don't own land so this can't be a crop.) Matthew 23:23

Excuse me, but when the Lord defined produce from the land, that would indeed include spices...ANYTHING growing from the soil.

How, then, in your mind does that translate into wages?

Honor the Lord with all your possession. (Money's included in all.) Proverbs 3:9

Where does the context of that verse ever refer to the tithe? Can you show it to us?

NT tithing through Christ. (Money's included.) Hebrews 6:20 and Hebrews 7:1-28

Again, ignoring the context and what's actually being said is what you're overlooking. Have you ever actually read the context? Does the context have any meaning to you? Why assume into those texts what they never said in the first place?

The Israelites brought a tithe of everything, including produce. (Money's included in all.) 2 Chronicles 31:5

2 Chr 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the fields; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.

I dare you to find monetary wages stated anywhere in the context without you intentionally injecting it into the text on the basis of personal assumption (wishful thinking).

When it says EVERYTHING, the contextual objects were ALL the Lord had already defined as being the sources of the tithe. Adding what is NOWHERE defined as being under the Law of the tithe is nothing short of eisegesis.

BTW

Svt4Him · Jan 13, 2013

Why does Abraham keep coming up? If you are going to use what he did as an example of pre-law, apart from ignoring all other pre-law things people did, then follow it as it is written. He gave it all away. Doesn't Malachi say tithes and offerings? You're robbing God if you use the example of Abraham and don't give everything away.

Well, I don't really believe that, but I'm just pointing out the dichotomy of using Abraham in part and ignoring the other part. It's almost as bad as quoting verse locations to say one's following the Bible when the Bible clearly lays out what the tithe offering was, and ignoring it.

Again quoted with permission, and in the other thread:

Everyone gives 10% of ongoing income.Considering the “Everyone” element. The two events before the Law do not support the idea that everyone should pay tithe. Only Abraham and Jacob in each situation are paying tithe. Genesis doesn’t record anyone else tithing. Abraham and Jacob don’t seem to teach their children to tithe. One of Jacob’s children, Joseph, is a particularly righteous man. In the more than ten detailed chapters devoted to Joseph, we don’t discover him tithing either. Not everyone tithed in Genesis before the Law.
In the Law of Moses, not everyone was required to tithe or give firstfruits. Only those who were actually growing food or raising sheep or cattle were required by the Law to tithe the food or present firstfruits. People from other occupations were not required to tithe since they had no harvest or growth of flocks to tithe or to present firstfruits from. Not everyone tithed food who lived under the Law. No one under the Law tithed money at all.
Christ has only a few words to say about tithing. In those words, Christ does not say that everyone should tithe. He says that unbelieving Jews living under the Law should tithe food if they are growing it. He mentions three food plants. Christ is not addressing His disciples. He is addressing unbelieving Pharisees.
The apostle Paul does not teach that everyone is obligated to tithe or to even to give. He teaches that giving is completely voluntary. The first apostolic council in Acts Chapter 15 does not say that Gentile believers should tithe either. There is absolutely no evidence that any Gentile Christian in the First Century ever tithed anything. Here is what the Encyclopedia Americana says about the history of tithing: "It was not practiced in the early Christian church but gradually became common (in the Roman Catholic church in western Europe) by the 6th Century. The Council of Tours in 567 and the second Council of Macon in 585 advocated tithing. Made obligatory by civil law in the Carolingian empire in 765 and in England in the 10th Century... The Reformation did not abolish tithing and the practice was continued in the Roman Catholic church and in Protestant countries... (until it was) gradually replaced by other forms of taxation. The Roman Catholic church still prescribes tithes in countries where they are sanctioned by law, and some Protestant bodies consider tithes obligatory."The Encyclopedia Britannica points this out about tithing... "The eastern Orthodox churches never accepted the idea of tithes and Orthodox church members have never paid them."
Everyone gives 10% of ongoing income.Considering the “gives” element. The two events before the Law do seem like giving. They are both voluntary acts. God does not require either man, Abraham or Jacob, to give anything. While this does on the surface seem to support the tithing teaching, it actually contradicts some aspects of the Tithing Obligation teaching. While the proponents of tithing teach that tithing is giving, they also often teach that tithing is required, that a tithe must be paid. Of course, this is a contradiction in their teaching. Something can be only given if it is entirely voluntary. If it is required, then it is, in this case, a fee for spiritual services or a religious tax. If some teach that a believer comes under a curse if they do not tithe, then they are not teaching giving but teaching paying an obligated tithe. Of course, they are right in one sense because they are often spiritualizing the Law of Moses to teach tithing.
Tithing in the Law of Moses was never giving. It was much more like paying taxes. The Law of Moses required tithing by farmers and husbandmen. They would not have seen their tithing as giving. There was nothing voluntary in their paying tithe. They would have been in violation of the Law if they had not done it.
Again, Christ has very little to say about tithing. He did say that Jewish people living under the Law pay tithe. Christ does teach a great deal about finances and giving but never instructs His disciples to tithe money or anything else. He does not instruct them to receive tithes either.
Paul writes a great deal about finances and giving but never instructs anyone to tithe or to receive tithes. The first apostolic council in Acts Chapter 15 is silent on the subject of tithing and establishes that Gentiles are not to keep any aspects of the Law of Moses, even spiritualization of the Law. That would include tithing of anything.

Everyone gives 10% of ongoing income. Considering the “10%” element. The two events before the Law of Moses do seem to support the idea that ten percent of something should be given. The number ten is the same. However, the other four elements are significantly different. This makes tithing being practiced by the Church very different from what is happening in Genesis. The only similarity is the ten percent number.

Christ does validate the ten-percent number but only for Jews living under the Law of Moses. He tells the Pharisees that they should pay tithe, ten percent, of their produced food. He also tells them that paying ten-percent is not a weighty matter of the Law. In saying this, Christ does tell us that tithing is a matter of the Law.

The apostle Paul repeatedly warns believers about the curse of the Law. Gentile believers should not attempt to keep any aspects of the Law. Believers are not required to give ten-percent of food or anything else. The writings of the other apostles, James and Peter, are silent about Christians giving ten percent of food or anything else.

Everyone gives 10% of ongoing income. Considering the “ongoing” element. The two examples before the Law of Moses do not reveal the practice of on-going tithing. They both appear strongly to be one-time acts. In the case of Jacob, we don’t know exactly what he did but it does seem that he is promising to tithe once if God blesses him. Of course, this is exactly opposite of what the Church teaches. The Church teaches that that God will bless us if we tithe. Jacob says he will tithe if God blesses him. The Church’s practice of ongoing, repetitious tithing simply cannot be validated by two one-time acts. They are not similar to what the Church teaches about tithing.
The only place in the Bible where ongoing, repetitious tithing can be found is in the Law of Moses. Those who were farming or practicing husbandry in Israel had a lifetime obligation to tithe the food that they produced. This ongoing food tithe to support the Mosaic Levitical ministry is often borrowed from the Law and spiritualized to justify repetitious money tithing in support of Christian ministry. This justification is not found in the New Testament.
Christ’s statement about tithing reveals that the ongoing tithing of food is under the Law. Christ says nothing about His disciples practicing ongoing tithing of anything. While the writings of the apostles in the New Testament often speak of generous giving, they are silent about ongoing tithing of anything. The first apostolic council is also silent about ongoing tithing of anything but releases Gentile believers from any aspects of keeping the Law of Moses.
Everyone gives 10% of ongoing income. Considering the “income” element. Abraham tithes on the spoils of war, not his entire income. Abraham tithed the captured belongings of his defeated enemies. Additionally, Genesis reveals that Abraham didn’t even keep the ninety percent that was remaining. He returned those possessions to the King of Sodom. Abraham’s income, his possessions or any part of his own wealth wasn’t involved at all in his tithing. He had no increase to tithe on. In Jacob’s case, we don’t know exactly what he did since all Genesis records is his promise to God. In other words, there is no support in the events before the Law that Christians should give ten percent of their ongoing income.
Nearly everyone that teaches tithing resorts to using the Law and prophets living under the Law to teach it. Those that teach Christian tithing from the Law often neglect to reveal that only food produced was tithed on but never money. Only those who earned their livings by producing food tithed at all. Those Israelites who earned money by other means such as tent making, weaving, carpentry, money lending, fishing or many other occupations never tithed on their incomes since it was not commanded of them.
Christ does not change tithing food to tithing money. The writings of the apostles do not change tithing food to tithing money. The apostolic council releases the Gentile believers from any keeping of the Law. They certainly do not change tithing food to tithing money. The book of Hebrews does mention the Old Testament tithing of food but does not validate tithing money for believers today.
Finally, it should be obvious to the reader that this doctrine is pieced together from these various passages. Not a single passage in itself actually teaches what the Church practices today. Spiritualization of the Law is used to teach tithing. Reasoning that is not found in the Bible is used to justify Christians embracing a legalistic practice from the Old Testament. In more than 4000 years of recorded Biblical history, there is not a single recorded example of tithing that is similar to what the Church practices today. We recommend that every Christian renounce this unscriptural practice and reject any lingering fear, guilt or condemnation! God’s children have no debt to their Father to pay other than thanksgiving and praise. Their elder brother, the Lord Jesus Christ, has paid in full the debt. Christ will build His Church but only with the truth. He needs no help from a false doctrine that puts the Children of God under bondage to fear and the curse of the Law. The children are free!

WordofHisPower · Jan 14, 2013

Here's what the scripture says.

Hebrews 7:2
and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything.

Hebrews 7:4
Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder!

Genesis 14:20
And praise be to God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand.”
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

WordofHisPower · Jan 14, 2013

@ BeforeThereWas

OT wage earners were those who had no land, they had to scrounge daily to earn enough to eat.

They resemble the modern day homeless jobless because there's no minimum wage in OT times. OT wages were a pittance.

Every OT Israelite (except Levites) owned land as their inheritance.

If you own anything (car, house, TV, computer, furniture, fridge, stove, washer, stereo, records, books) you're not in the same category as the OT wage earner who usually had only the clothes on their back.

You're in the category of a land owner who paid tithes.

Read the book of Ruth to understand how different you are from an OT wage earner, and how similar you are to an OT land owner.

I've answered your questions in posts #54, 45, 33, 16.

If Not For Grace · Jan 14, 2013

Keep it simple. I'm just a Southern woman, but this does not seem complex to me.

If you are unsure whether to do a thing or not..anything. Ask youself, is it a good thing, will harm come if I do it. If it is an action of gratitude or thankfulness, how can it be wrong? Is it in line with the nature of God, which is giving..

Then just do it..you certainily will not get in trouble for it. Do it because you get to not because you have to. This is an opportunity for you to honor your God.

Even the Mafia kicks back tribute to it's leaders (for the priviledge of earning on their turff)..If the criminal can understand tradition and honor and the priviledge of being allowed to earn. Can we not gladly do the same? Who here thinks he can out give God, or that without God he would have anything to give.

We need to LEARN to give and do so eagerly and we need to teach our children to to the same. Just do it..and be thankful that you CAN not that you have to.. We are told to give to our enemies, to those who steal from us..do you have to be told to give to God, surely not.

Giving is Christianity 101..one can not love without giving. The selfish and those who wish to argue or debate about giving. Love does not even have to think about giving, it just does. God is Love. We are not supposed to debate or quarrel..period..about anything-least of all what we owe God. We are supposed to give our lives over to the care of God..let us start with say 10%? Is is really that hard?

Seems soooo simple. Let us not make it hard.

WordofHisPower · Jan 14, 2013

@ BeforeThereWas

You want to be excluded from tithing because you're a wage earner? Keep using the 7 law tithe scriptures to do that.

That's the difference between tithers and yourself. We're happy and blessed to give. We use the 8 non-law tithe scriptures for NT tithing.

What's it matter to you if we tithe and you don't? Why's this upset you?

It doesn't matter to us if you tithe or not, because we're blessed doing what we see in scripture.

MONEY'S included in these 8 NON-LAW scriptures
Abraham tithes (10%) on all. (All means all. Money's included in all.) Hebrews 7:2, Genesis 14:20

Jacob tithes (10%) of all the Lord gives him. (Money's included in all.) Genesis 28:22

NT tithe (10%) of all that you possess. (Money's included in all.) Luke 18:12

NT Pharisee tithe 10% and Christ said to continue doing it. (This mint and herb tithe is no where to be found in any of the OT Mosaic scriptures. Where'd they get the idea to tithe mint and herbs? Might be the same place we get the idea to tithe money? Pharisees don't own land so this can't be a crop.) Matthew 23:23

Honor the Lord with all your possession. (Money's included in all.) Proverbs 3:9

NT tithing through Christ. (Money's included.) Hebrews 6:20 and Hebrews 7:1-28

The Israelites brought a tithe of everything, including produce. (Money's included in all.) 2 Chronicles 31:5

WordofHisPower · Jan 14, 2013

Just food for thought.

If NT tithing is wrong (which it's not) the NT tither would still be blessed because they're givers.

If NT tithing is right (which it is) the non-tithers have been missing God.

Tithers can't lose either way.

WordofHisPower · Jan 14, 2013

If Not For Grace said:
Keep it simple. I'm just a Southern woman, but this does not seem complex to me.

If you are unsure whether to do a thing or not..anything. Ask youself, is it a good thing, will harm come if I do it. If it is an action of gratitude or thankfulness, how can it be wrong? Is it in line with the nature of God, which is giving..

Then just do it..you certainily will not get in trouble for it. Do it because you get to not because you have to. This is an opportunity for you to honor your God.

Even the Mafia kicks back tribute to it's leaders (for the priviledge of earning on their turff)..If the criminal can understand tradition and honor and the priviledge of being allowed to earn. Can we not gladly do the same? Who here thinks he can out give God, or that without God he would have anything to give.

We need to LEARN to give and do so eagerly and we need to teach our children to to the same. Just do it..and be thankful that you CAN not that you have to.. We are told to give to our enemies, to those who steal from us..do you have to be told to give to God, surely not.

Giving is Christianity 101..one can not love without giving. The selfish and those who wish to argue or debate about giving. Love does not even have to think about giving, it just does. God is Love. We are not supposed to debate or quarrel..period..about anything-least of all what we owe God. We are supposed to give our lives over to the care of God..let us start with say 10%? Is is really that hard?

Seems soooo simple. Let us not make it hard.

True, especially considering 100% of what we have came from the Lord.

Gratitude, love, worship, generosity, should be the motive for giving 10%, not obligation or compulsion.

WordofHisPower · Jan 14, 2013

@ the 7 anti-tithers

We agree with your point that legalistic obligatory compulsory tithing under threat of a curse, is wrong for NT believers. Christ dealt with the law and the curse.

The point NT tithers make is, scripture has examples of 8 non-law tithes. This proves tithing with a right motive still has scriptural foundation.

The law tithes Christ dealt with, prove tithing was so important to God He made it a law for a while. We tithers respect this fact.

God made many things a law for a while, like holiness, honesty, morality. These things are no longer a law with a curse because Christ dealt with this also. But Christians respect the fact these things are important to God.

We don't go around saying holiness, morality, honesty are no longer important to God, so live as you please.

This is a summary of what and why tithers believe and live as we do. You're not going to be able to sway us off such a solid foundation.

The only thing you 7 anti-tithers and we tithers will do together is help those under fearful compulsory tithing to get free.

GaryArnold · Jan 14, 2013

The scriptures do NOT show that Abram was a tither. The scriptures do NOT show that Jacob was a tither. Tithing one time, or making a vow to tithe, does not make one a "tither."

The definition of the word tithe/tithing, during Biblical times, was:
a tenth
a tenth part
give a tenth
take a tenth
pay a tenth

The word "tither" does not appear anywhere in the scriptures.

Man has now changed the definition of tithing by adding QUALIFIERS; i.e., a tenth of income, etc.

God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33, by adding QUALIFIERS.

IF it is not God's Holy tithe, then anyone can make up any qualifiers they want and say they have tithed.

If I have ten one dollar bills in my wallet and I give one of those dollar bills to the church, the poor, or to anyone, I have tithed. I gave a tenth.

So-called tithers today want to restrict a so-called NT tithe to a tenth of income and maybe other items such as gifts, inheritances, etc. They have NO RIGHT to restrict the definition and call it Biblical. They have NO RIGHT to change GOD'S DEFINTION and call it a Holy tithe.

Some so-called NT tithers may have a good heart, but many are stingy by making a tenth their starting point in giving. THAT IS NOT NEW TESTAMENT. THAT IS NOT USING THE SPIRIT GOD GAVE TO US.

So-called NT tithers are missing the real blessings that come by seeking and obeying His Holy Spirit.

BeforeThereWas · Jan 14, 2013

WordofHisPower said:
@ BeforeThereWas

OT wage earners were those who had no land, they had to scrounge daily to earn enough to eat.

They resemble the modern day homeless jobless because there's no minimum wage in OT times. OT wages were a pittance.

How is a jobless person today the equivalent of a wage earner back then?

My Jewish scholar friends, after reading what you've said, stated that what you wrote is nothing short of historic revisionism and pure nonsense.

What evidence do you have to support what you've said. They REALLY want to see your sources....IF you have any. I have the whole biblical studies department at Friends University behind me. What have you got?

If you own anything (car, house, TV, computer, furniture, fridge, stove, washer, stereo, records, books) you're not in the same category as the OT wage earner who usually had only the clothes on their back.

You're in the category of a land owner who paid tithes.

Again, what's your source for such declarations? Do you have any?

Stating a conclusion without supporting premises proves nothing.

The man who had only nine lambs born in the year was not required to hand over a tithe to the Levite.

The man who had only nine calves born in the year was not required to hand over a tithe to the Levite.

The man who had only nine oxen born in the year was not required to hand over a tithe to the Levite.

Why?

Simply because there was no tenth to pass under the rod. (Lev. 27:32)

So you see, blindly declaring that owning a car, TV, etc., is an exact parallel to owning producing gardens, lands, orchards, vineyards, herds or flocks has no substance behind it. TV's do not produce an increase. Wages are not a biblically defined form of increase.

Where did you hear Israelite wage earners were homeless scroungers? Who told you that? Your "pastor"? Did he tell you that? Fishermen were not homeless scroungers, and they were not required to hand over any fish to the Levites.

I can't WAIT to see your source for this stuff...if you have any.

The man who had only nine lambs born in the year was not required to hand over a tithe to the Levite.

Are you serious?

Please explain to us all the parallel you see between a producing piece of land, which produced an INCREASE, and a TV.

I've read Ruth, and I don't see the parallel. Please explain in more detail how you overcame the vast barrier between non-producing houses, TV's, cars, and anything else to which you may point, and producing lands, orchards, vineyards, flocks and herds.

I've answered your questions in posts #54, 45, 33, 16.

Generalized conclusions without supporting premises are not answers.

BTW

BeforeThereWas · Jan 14, 2013

WordofHisPower said:
@ BeforeThereWas

First of all, your assumption that all the pharasees were Levites is purely wrong. Paul of Tarsus was a Benjamite.

MONEY'S included in these 8 NON-LAW scriptures

Click to expand...

Jacob tithes (10%) of all the Lord gives him. (Money's included in all.) Genesis 28:22

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There's no evidence Jacob tithed anything after all was said and done.

Abraham tithed nothing from his own personal property.

So you're left with a great big ZILCH on these two counts.

NT tithe (10%) of all that you possess. (Money's included in all.) Luke 18:12

Click to expand...

Excuse me, but you seem to be very confused. That pharasee was still under the Law. He also was bragging. How is that an example to us today?

Read verse 14. Do you not recall that the pharasee went away unjustified, and you want to use that as one of your tithe verses? That's a very low standard for proof.

NT Pharisee tithe 10% and Christ said to continue doing it.

Click to expand...

Yes. He said to continue doing so to those who were still under the Law.

In case you missed all this before, the Cup of the New Covenant had not yet been passed to mankind, which was much later at the Last Supper. Therefore, all those people were STILL under the Law until that Cup was passed to mankind.

For proof, read Luke 5 where the man was commanded by Christ Jesus to go and offer up the cleansing sacrifices according to the Law of Moses.

(This mint and herb tithe is no where to be found in any of the OT Mosaic scriptures. Where'd they get the idea to tithe mint and herbs? Might be the same place we get the idea to tithe money? Pharisees don't own land so this can't be a crop.) Matthew 23:23

Click to expand...

Again, the pharasees are nowhere declared to have been Levites.

Nice try, but you lose once again.

Honor the Lord with all your possession. (Money's included in all.) Proverbs 3:9

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Show me where the tithe is mentioned in the context anywhere around that verse.

NT tithing through Christ. (Money's included.) Hebrews 6:20 and Hebrews 7:1-28

Click to expand...

Please elaborate on this in more detail. We simply don't see where your conclusion originates.

The Israelites brought a tithe of everything, including produce. (Money's included in all.) 2 Chronicles 31:5

Click to expand...

That verse says nothing about money. Please show us where you're getting the idea money was involved.....if you can.

BTW

BeforeThereWas · Jan 14, 2013

WordofHisPower said:
Just food for thought.

If NT tithing is wrong (which it's not) the NT tither would still be blessed because they're givers.

If NT tithing is right (which it is) the non-tithers have been missing God.

Tithers can't lose either way.

Now THAT is some seriously flawed logic. In philosophy, it's called "kettle logic," (using multiple, inconsistent arguments to defend a position).

I don't recall anyone declaring that tithing is "wrong," so you're also arguing from silence.

What I stated from the beginning is the lack of proper PRIORITIES when it comes to handing over one's tithe (primary, largest portion giving) to most institutional church organizations.

THAT is a robbery of God.

BTW

WordofHisPower · Jan 15, 2013

BeforeThereWas said:
I don't recall anyone declaring that tithing is "wrong," so you're also arguing from silence.

What I stated from the beginning is the lack of proper PRIORITIES when it comes to handing over one's tithe (primary, largest portion giving) to most institutional church organizations.

THAT is a robbery of God.

BTW

I'm glad your not saying tithing is wrong.

As to where each person hands over their tithe is what the Holy Spirit leads them to do.

If an institutional church organization is using God's money properly then all of it can go there. If they're not, God will show you where to give your tithe. It's up to each person to ask God.

If you don't ask God where to tithe, you can't complain about the way the tithe's used.

WordofHisPower · Jan 15, 2013

@ BeforeThereWas

Jacob promised to tithe and then broke his promise? Where's scripture say that?

Abraham tithed from something that wasn't legally his? I think not.

A bragging tither nullifies tithing? Then a bragging non-tither nullifies non-tithing?

Tithing from all his possessions is a law tithe? You 7 anti-tithers have been saying it's only crops and livestock.

The Pharisee's tithing mint and herbs. Tithing herbs isn't a law tithe. Christ's telling him to keep tithing apart from the law.

You're right about some Pharisees not being Levites.

Already answered the give 10% of all your possessions in post # 33. Honor the Lord with all your possessions and with the firstfruits. Firstfruits, tithes, alms, offerings are the only forms of giving to the Lord anywhere in scripture. This type of terminology is used elsewhere for tithing. 10% is the only number associated with any of these 4. IOW firstfruits, tithe, alms, offerings, were all 10%, so whatever you consider this to be, it still ends up 10%.

Hebrews 6 and 7. Christ's the new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek and receives the tithes. Read those chapters for clarification. I'll try to post the whole thing in a different post later.

2 Chronicles 31:5 isn't a law tithe. It says a tithe of all, not only crops or livestock. All means all. Just like Abraham gave a tithe of all. That's a lot more than crops and livestock.

Faulty · Jan 15, 2013

WordofHisPower said:
Hebrews 6 and 7. Christ's the new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek and receives the tithes. Read those chapters for clarification. I'll try to post the whole thing in a different post later.

Please do, because Hebrews 7 abolishes tithing as a command.

v5: Levi had a command of the Law to take tithes.
v11-12: There was a replacement of the laws.
v18: The law under which Levi had his command to take tithes was cancelled.
v16, 22, 28: Jesus is a guarantee of the new and eternal law.

Under the old law was tithing commanded. Where's the command that again establishes tithing under the new covenant? Because verse 5 also clearly states that the tithing command for Levi was only to take from his brothers.

As I am not a Jew, that was never binding to me and it could never be, even if it were not cancelled and done away with already. As Paul states in 1 Corinthians 9, I would be one considered as "outside the law".

GaryArnold · Jan 15, 2013

WordofHisPower said:
@ BeforeThereWas

Jacob promised to tithe and then broke his promise? Where's scripture say that?

Abraham tithed from something that wasn't legally his? I think not.

The Pharisee's tithing mint and herbs. Tithing herbs isn't a law tithe. Christ's telling him to keep tithing apart from the law.

Hebrews 6 and 7. Christ's the new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek and receives the tithes.

2 Chronicles 31:5 isn't a law tithe. It says a tithe of all, not only crops or livestock. All means all. Just like Abraham gave a tithe of all. That's a lot more than crops and livestock.

1 - Jacob made a vow to tithe IF AND WHEN God performed certain actions. There is nothing in the scriptures to show that Jacob was satisfied that God complied with all his demands before he would tithe, and nowhere does it say that Jacob ever gave the tenth. No one said that Jacob lied.

2 - Abram tithed from what Abram, himself, said didn't belong to him.
Genesis 14:22-24 (KJV)
22And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
23That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine...

3 - Jesus called the tithing of herbs MATTERS OF THE LAW in Matthew 23:23. Leviticus 27:30 doesn't say a tenth of "crops," it says "all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree...
Herbs come from the seed of the land.

4 - Hebrews 6 and 7 says NOTHING about Jesus receiving tithes. NOTHING.

Svt4Him · Jan 16, 2013

Just food for thought.

If NT tithing is wrong (which it's not) the NT tither would still be blessed because they're givers.- Really? Then I'm blessed because I pay taxes.
Well, I am, but giving because you have to is not a guarantee for blessings, although some think it is. Giving because you want to it totally different, so tithers may be missing God.

If NT tithing is right (which it is) the non-tithers have been missing God.

Tithers can't lose either way.- again wrong.People who are generous out of their heart can't lose anyway, but nothing again to do with tithing. And people who help the poor will be blessed, whereas tithers who only give to their church may have been missing God.

It reminds me of a pastor who used this line of reasoning, which actually required me to study this. He said if we don't tithe, we're actually cursed and my son may become a homosexual and I may get a divorce. Believe it or not that's a true story, and it made us leave that church. But if you believe that tithing is the will of God and everyone else is missing God, the logical belief is we're cursed because we don't follow that law. He was wrong.

Svt4Him · Jan 16, 2013

A bragging tither nullifies tithing? Then a bragging non-tither nullifies non-tithing? - really? OK, just ignore:

“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

Ummm...move along, there aren't the droids you're looking for

2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question! (2)

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