To the evolution deniers

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redleghunter

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Right, right and he is "literally" a lamb. It depends how you interprete it. Defend your interruption. Most Christians do not interrupte that literally (like many other things in the bible) because evolution is a fact .They do not believe in a deceiving or undivine Jesus.

Actually not a matter of interpretation. It's a matter of language. When Jesus quoted Genesis 2 He was confirming a truth and design of God with regards to marriage. When He uses such words as Shepherd, sheep, Living Water etc. He is using direct metaphors to teach a spiritual truth. Don't assume everything must be allegorical or as some do everything is literal. Jesus used metaphors to teach a literal truth.

Even if Jesus existed, was divine, told the truth and in a way we understood, those actual words are only attributed to him decades after he was suppose to have died on the cross and risen.

Decades after? Glad you admit such. That also means the people who heard the words of Jesus were mostly still around. Many of them if not all knew how to write. John and Matthew come to mind. There are even liberal theologians who hold to a position that the sayings of Jesus were written down very early as in starting with his 40 days between His resurrection and ascension.

Feel free to believe whatever, of course, but I don't believe it is true. Because there is nothing indicating it is, but many things indicating it is wrong.

Thanks for your opinion. However, if you are going to refer to the Bible and make assertions from it expect to be answered on a Christian site.

God Bless you.
 
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redleghunter

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I didn't say one should automatically assume something is symbolic or literal. Of course not. We don't even know if Jesus actually existed the way the bible describes him and everything he is suppose to have said is only attributed to him many years later.

If I said "Spiderman is a male, born in NYC and has a girlfriend named Jane..." would you think I actually believed the comic book? Or would you realize I was just discussing an old story? Most Christians (and Jewish people) think much of genesis is allegory and is a "spiritual truth." You aren't presenting anything that would support why it has to be read literally.
Actually the above is off topic for the thread. However if you want you could pose those questions elsewhere on CF and many including myself would love to discuss.
 
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pitabread

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All these changes obviously require a whole lot of new genetic information to have been added over time. I just want an example of the process observed at work in a multi celled organism.

New genetic "information" is a result of mutations that occur during replication. For sexually reproducing organisms, this occurs during cell division in the formation of gametes.

Mutations themselves can be of a variety of types, including single nucleotide substitutions (i.e. changing on a single base) to duplication of existing sequences including wholesale gene or even chromosomal duplication, to deletions of sequences, translocations, etc.

The underlying effect of the mutation can vary from having no visible effect, to gain-of-function mutations (including changing an existing function), loss-of-function, and so on.

And finally, the fitness effect of the mutation with respect to the broader population can range from being neutral to deleterious (including fatal) to beneficial. However, measuring the fitness effect of a mutation is not always straightforward as it can be dependent on specific environmental pressures. A beneficial mutation in one environment may be neutral or even deleterious in another environment.

For example, a mutation conveying a bright white fur coloration might be beneficial in a snowy environment as camouflage. But conversely, in a temperate forest it might make the creature a more visible target for predators and reduce its chances for survival.

Ultimately, if you want to know how genetic variation arises, that is, how new genetic 'information' gets added to genomes, I would suggest reading up on reproduction, genetics, and specifically mutations: Mutation - Wikipedia

Well firstly scanning through the article I missed the part where it was conducted under a controlled condition and the DNA involved was known to not exist in any of the population prior.

Like I said, this is somewhat irrelevant given that we already know a) how genetic variation arises, and b) that fitness effects are environmentally dependent and thus fluid depending on changing environmental conditions.

For example, a mutation resulting in an allele conveying pesticide resistance could have arisen a thousand generations prior. But until the pesticide is applied to the population, it wouldn't be known that that particular mutation conveys pesticide resistance and thus is beneficial to the organisms not killed off by that pesticide.

Secondly don’t you think in a debate were all animal life is believed to be related that at least some of the evidence should involve…eh hem…animals?

Of course animals are studied. And plants. And bacteria.

In the end, life is life. We all have the same DNA.

Huh? Are you implying that the change is the result of environmental “pressures?” Because all evolution theory I have ever read says that the changes are completely the result “random” mutations and that it is the environment that chooses which random mutations will move forward…ie…a mutation gives an animals offspring much more hair that it’s relatives and it is able to survive a harsher winter and pass on the trait. It isn’t the harsh winter that causes the longer hair mutation. This has nothing in comparison with “selective breeding.”

No, I'm not talking about the cause of mutations (although mutagenic materials can certainly cause mutations).

Rather it's that a controlled environment implies one that is artificially controlled; for example, a laboratory setting. Everything from availability of food supplies to ambient temperature, barometric pressure, atmosphere, would all be up to the one setting the environmental conditions.

Consequently, any selective pressures and thus traits that may be considered beneficial would also be a result of the setting of those artificial environmental conditions.

Well it is not irrelevant to me because the presence of the trait in the population shows that it already existed as an allele in the population in some minority. And just because the majority of the population dies off and that minority then becomes the majority doesn’t demonstrate UCD mechanisms. It merely demonstrates survival of the species not existence of the species.

But that is a demonstration of the mechanisms of evolution. Reproduction and mutation gives rise to new alleles. And selective pressures and other mechanisms around gene flow shape the distribution of those alleles within the population.

That's evolution in a nutshell.
 
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Motherofkittens

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We interpret the Bible in the way it dictates to us to interpret it. If it makes a plainly literal statement that is the way we take it. If it makes an obvious metaphor then we take as such. We don't just pick and choose arbitrarily what we want to make a metaphor and what is literal. The Bible does that for us.

Who is "we"? What do you mean by "obvious" and "plain ".

Do you think during communion the bread and wine literally turn into Jesus body and blood? Because a lot of Christians do and just as many don't. There are 41,000 denominations, mostly because they interpret the bible differently. I guess it isn't so "obvious".

We must remember the bible was written 1000s of years ago and used many different literary devices and concepts, some of which are rare or we do not use now. And then you are reading it in a completely different language in a completely different culture.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Species can have multiple alleles, individuals can only have two at the most, you conflated species and individuals.

By the way, the number of alleles that we see in various species tells us that Noah's Ark is a myth as well as the Adam and Eve story.
 
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Motherofkittens

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Actually not a matter of interpretation. It's a matter of language. When Jesus quoted Genesis 2 He was confirming a truth and design of God with regards to marriage. When He uses such words as Shepherd, sheep, Living Water etc. He is using direct metaphors to teach a spiritual truth. Don't assume everything must be allegorical or as some do everything is literal. Jesus used metaphors to teach a literal truth.



Decades after? Glad you admit such. That also means the people who heard the words of Jesus were mostly still around. Many of them if not all knew how to write. John and Matthew come to mind. There are even liberal theologians who hold to a position that the sayings of Jesus were written down very early as in starting with his 40 days between His resurrection and ascension.



Thanks for your opinion. However, if you are going to refer to the Bible and make assertions from it expect to be answered on a Christian site.

God Bless you.

Depending on which of the now 4 acceptable gospels we are talking about, it could be a few decades or even over a century. We do not know who wrote them.

I am not arguing with Christianity. I am arguring (in the science sub-forum) that a mostly American protestant minority interpretation (my spell checker keeps making that into interruption, blah. Hopefully it didn't with my other posts) that genesis is literal and has scientific evidence for it.

As I said, believe what you want, just know it is only faith and only one of a multitude of interpretations.
 
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Motherofkittens

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False dichotomy. "Something" may always have been in existence that was not an uncreated Creator. A Creator may have "appeared" and subsequently set about creating. Life in the universe may have evolved to a point it had the power to go back to the beginning and "start the ball rolling". Possible? Who knows, but narrowing your options down to two is precipitate.

I found it for you. Ophiolite gave you several. It is valid. It would be really appropriate if you apologized.

Even if no one could think of any but two, it doesn't mean there are only two possibilities. I know one Christian who thinks that Yahweh was created after the big bang.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Dude, your own source says an entire species and multiple individuals together have more than 2 alleles between the whole population. Just, think of your chromosomes for a second. You have 23 pairs of chromosomes, with half coming from mom and the other half coming from dad. Chromosomes are DNA molecules supercoiled, so if, say, a specific segment of chromosome has a gene, it just has the 1. So, chromosome from, let's say dad, has 1 gene in a particular spot, making for 1 allele. The gene in the exact same spot in the chromosome from mom is slightly different, and that's another allele. That makes the maximum total alleles you can have for the gene at that particular location on the chromosome just 2. For you by yourself. For every additional person in a group, you can add potentially 2 more. So, a group of 16 people could have as many as 32 different alleles for the exact same gene between them, but no individual person has more than 2.
 
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USincognito

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>> Humans can only have two alleles, one of which is passed down offspring from each parent. <<

>>A population or species of organisms typically includes multiple alleles at each locus among various individuals. <<

One of these things is not like the other.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Just in case you misread my statement. I said "multi celled" organisms. And I believe e. coli are single celled.

Yes, and humans are multi-celluar. Why did you ignore the four different examples I presented?
 
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redleghunter

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Depending on which of the now 4 acceptable gospels we are talking about, it could be a few decades or even over a century. We do not know who wrote them.

I am not arguing with Christianity. I am arguring (in the science sub-forum) that a mostly American protestant minority interpretation (my spell checker keeps making that into interruption, blah. Hopefully it didn't with my other posts) that genesis is literal and has scientific evidence for it.

As I said, believe what you want, just know it is only faith and only one of a multitude of interpretations.
Thanks for the clarification.

If interested we could discuss what you refer to multiple interpretations. Perhaps elsewhere.
 
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redleghunter

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I found it for you. Ophiolite gave you several. It is valid. It would be really appropriate if you apologized.

Even if no one could think of any but two, it doesn't mean there are only two possibilities. I know one Christian who thinks that Yahweh was created after the big bang.
It's the same choice. As St Thomas Aquinas would call the Unmoved Mover.
 
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redleghunter

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By the way, the number of alleles that we see in various species tells us that Noah's Ark is a myth as well as the Adam and Eve story.
Theologically speaking no. Only if one ascribes to naturalism and or materialism. What is evident in TaNaKh and Brit HaHadashah is YHWH personally involved with His creation. To the point of Incarnation, becoming one of us. The supernatural of God acting on His own creation as master over the natural created universe is well attested in Sacred Scriptures.

I know your response will be something like "well I don't believe that." If so why even bring up Biblical references.

Now perhaps your statements of Eden and the genetic make up after the deluge would be a valid inquiry to a deist, but hardly to a theist.

For a deist believes in a creator who wound a watch and let's things happen detached from the created.

This is not the YHWH of TaNaKh and Brit HaHadashah.

Hope the distinction helps.

Grace and Peace.
 
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redleghunter

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Unless you can show that your God exists then he is on the same level as Allah, Zeus, Odin, and Shiva. By the way, the Kalam Cosmological argument of Craig was refuted years ago.
Opinion noted. As I mentioned above God's existence is well attested to in TaNaKh and Brit HaHadashah. I understand you deny this evidence. So why belabor the point?

You have called God a liar. How can He be a liar if He does not exist?
 
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Subduction Zone

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The supernatural is well attested to in the TaNaKh and Brit HaHadashah.
No, not really. The Bible is no more reliable in such matters than any other "holy" book. You need to find a valid source if you want to convince people.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Opinion noted. As I mentioned above God's existence is well attested to in TaNaKh and Brit HaHadashah. I understand you deny this evidence. So why belabor the point?

You have called God a liar. How can He be a liar if He does not exist?
You are repeating your errors again.

Where did I ever call God a liar? I can explain to you how you are probably calling him a liar, but I have never done so.

And please, you do not understand the concept of evidence. We can discuss that if you wish. I do not deny evidence, you have yet to provide any. Of course neither have I but then you have not asked any direct questions. I would appreciate it if you did not spread falsehoods about me. That is technically against the rules here. I don't reject evidence. So far it is rather apparent that I understand the concept better than you do.
 
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redleghunter

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No, you are merely mimicking. It is a Jewish tradition, not a Christian one. And I am not the one that is calling God a liar. Those that insist that the myths of Genesis are to be read literally are. How did you get that so backwards? Everything about the world tells us that there was no flood, that life is the product of evolution. That evidence had to come from your God if he exists. Trying to claim that there was a worldwide flood is claiming that God is a liar. You are probably conflating your interpretation of the Bible as "God's word" and if it is not literal then God "lied" the problem is that he also lied if it was. It is a lose lose for you if you insist that Genesis be taken literally. The Bible was written by man. Even if it was the so called "Inspired Word of God" that does not guarantee that it is perfect.
As I mentioned posts ago. You rely purely on the material universe to determine your belief system. Which is incomplete.

The point I made was with an uncreated Creator who is active in His creation, such naturalistic conundrums you pose to theists are not limiting on the supernatural.

You chose to lash out with insults and opinion. That's fine if you want to do such. But it is clear you are trying to use insults and bullying techniques to ignore the possibilities of Divine intervention in the actual affairs of mankind.

As a Christian, I am not surprised with your approach. In fact most Christians know what it used to be like.

1 Corinthians 1:

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
 
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redleghunter

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Do you really mean allegory? Or are you just using the word as a portmanteau for anything other than 100% accurate literal history?
I was responding to SZ claiming most Christians write off Genesis as allegory.
 
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