To my First Nations brothers and sisters

[WoodrowX2]

Salaam Alaikum. I am very sorry to hear about what your wife had gone through. In the church I go to, we have First Nations peoples who have also lived through these horrors. We have a man who witnessed his brother being beaten to death by a priest. In spite of this, he is a Christian. He knows that the horrific crimes he experienced were done by the people who were disobeying and abusing, not following, the Christian faith.

I am extremely outraged to hear that even now, it is illegal for your people to practice some of their traditions. I had no idea that the US is still this messed up- I mean I know that both my government and your government have sunk down to lows and continue to, but not that they'd still be doing this in the 21st century.

I'm sad to hear that Lakotah First Nations peoples who are Christians are considered a derogatory term (how different is "Twinkie" from "wigger"?) and are not taken seriously by others. To me, that sounds like religious discrimination.

It wouldn't be unlike looking down on Americans who converted to Islam after 9/11, or Armenians who are Muslims. If they can make the distinction between the religion and the crimes that were carried out in its name, why can't Aboriginal Christians?

It isn't as much as being anti-Christian as it is being anti-government. Just as there are Lakotah Muslims there are Lakotah Christians. But, Christianity gets to be equated with the Wasicu government. Wasicu is a strange word, while an exact translation is "White Man" it has come to mean the White government and/or those who support it. A big problem is the Lakotah have never surrendered and are living under the 1878 Peace treaty. (The Treaty of Laramie) which has been consistently broken by the government.Under the treaty the Lakotah were guaranteed the right to be self governing in the Lakotah territory which has been cut down to a few reservations. The original treaty granted the Lakotah. The Orange is what the treaty promised, the red is what remains or rather what we want designated as the Republic of Lakotah. The Black are the Reservations which are the actual remnants.

 

[Zoness]

The idea of stronger wins didn't start with Darwin, but Darwin certainly summarized it well. I don't know why you take it as insult, because without God, that is totally right and logical.

The reason that I take it as an insult is that it is typically used as one against non-theists (for some reason?). If I mistook your meaning that's my fault.

Is that even logical? Find any scripture in NT that says you must civilize the brute (or anything of similar tendency). That is not from the scripture, that is from the modern man, arrogant with their advance of knowledge and think their way are the best.

Jesus instead told his followers love others as themselfs, love their enemies, don't judge others, and if others don't listen, simply shake off dust from the shoes and leave.

Well recall that Protestantism as we understand it was just beginning to bloom in the European context. Even within those contexts people were not well read enough to read and understand the Bible on their own. Typically they had to depend on the Catholic church or one of the few new Protestant churches for their understanding of Christianity. The scriptures don't have to say anything on the matter but with the amount of power Christian priests had at the time, it didn't really matter.

That is their issue, not Christianity's issue. And I am not white so I don't have such guilt. You don't need to assume that all Christians are white Americans.

That's the context of most of this forum and most of the people I deal with day to day, and that's the context I will continue to operate under for this discussion since it is most applicable. I don't spend my days feeling guilty but I do recognize that its entirely possible America and Americans have done some pretty awful things. A lot of people don't want to recognize this as they'd rather pine for a perfectly just America that has never existed. My intent is to correct such false notions.

If you look at the NT, there is nothing violent there, nothing tells people to kill, to revenge (and in fact it said specificly not to do so), it tells of love, not hate, even to your enemies, and to the extend even if someone slaps you in the face, not only not to defend, but give the other half to be slapped.

But it also tell us that we are all sinners, none can do what God commanded. Just imagine that given all the commands and people still do bad stuff, it will be 100x worse if those people didn't follow Christianity at all (there will be no bounds as what people can do).

I don't have much of a quarrel with the NT but I think its a stretch to say that such people advocating colonialism only referenced to the NT. Obviously the OT has much better bits of scripture for approaching such things to a mass audience. The world is already in a bad state, I'm not sure I would buy the assertion that Christianity's presence makes it better or worse. I've seen Christianity do some pretty wonderful things in peoples' lives and for that I am happy but since I have never witnessed the Christian God myself I have to remain skeptical.

I feel its important to note that you can't blame "religion" or "ethnicity" as one specific cause of anything. I do not believe that any particular race or religion of people are any less moral than any others but rather its through our own cultural programming that we measure such things. I just find it disturbing that Americans in general are like "yeah, we didn't get along with Indians" and don't seem to be bothered by their crippling poverty and collapse that were largely brought on by our ancestors. All I am saying is I can understand why natives would be bothered by Christianity.

Heck, look at the political pastors in America. No way could I support them. I know lots of Christians do but their policies and agenda make me just as uncomfortable as they are made by the agenda of their opponents.

 

[MehGuy]

That is really sad..

Apparently I have some Native American roots. Everyone in my family looks white, except for my grandfather on my mother's side. He's pretty dark and probably mixed.

I should do more reading on the subject of Native American history. I do remember watching a documentary about Geronimo. I respect individuals who are willing to stand up for their heritage and people, especially when they are facing dire odds.

 

[dcalling]

The reason that I take it as an insult is that it is typically used as one against non-theists (for some reason?). If I mistook your meaning that's my fault.

No problem. It is true to some degrees as well, because with straight logic, we can apply nature to man kind.

Well recall that Protestantism as we understand it was just beginning to bloom in the European context. Even within those contexts people were not well read enough to read and understand the Bible on their own. Typically they had to depend on the Catholic church or one of the few new Protestant churches for their understanding of Christianity. The scriptures don't have to say anything on the matter but with the amount of power Christian priests had at the time, it didn't really matter.

I remember read something that in certain times, in a Christian country, even owning a bible can put one's life at risk, because people of power claim only they can interpret the bible. That is how corrupt men became.

That's the context of most of this forum and most of the people I deal with day to day, and that's the context I will continue to operate under for this discussion since it is most applicable. I don't spend my days feeling guilty but I do recognize that its entirely possible America and Americans have done some pretty awful things. A lot of people don't want to recognize this as they'd rather pine for a perfectly just America that has never existed. My intent is to correct such false notions.

Yes they did. I can still remember feeling angry during college history that how the Americans treated Indians, and feeling the same watching a documentary about the US/Mexico war.

I don't have much of a quarrel with the NT but I think its a stretch to say that such people advocating colonialism only referenced to the NT. Obviously the OT has much better bits of scripture for approaching such things to a mass audience. The world is already in a bad state, I'm not sure I would buy the assertion that Christianity's presence makes it better or worse. I've seen Christianity do some pretty wonderful things in peoples' lives and for that I am happy but since I have never witnessed the Christian God myself I have to remain skeptical.

I come from an Atheist country, and I can tell you some of the most awful things committed by man kind are people of no religion, or of wrong religion. The reason is if man only care about this world (or misguided thinking they need to do something), they can do very awful things, where people guided by good religion will have to be pushed (or tweaked) real hard to do.

I feel its important to note that you can't blame "religion" or "ethnicity" as one specific cause of anything. I do not believe that any particular race or religion of people are any less moral than any others but rather its through our own cultural programming that we measure such things. I just find it disturbing that Americans in general are like "yeah, we didn't get along with Indians" and don't seem to be bothered by their crippling poverty and collapse that were largely brought on by our ancestors. All I am saying is I can understand why natives would be bothered by Christianity.

It is very true, during the India/Pakinstian conflict, many Hindus and Muslims died by their own people to save their neighbors. People knows good or bad from their own heart. I do feel it is even easier for Christians to do good things because of the good guidance (but there will always be people who tweak hard to fit them, against the teachings).

Heck, look at the political pastors in America. No way could I support them. I know lots of Christians do but their policies and agenda make me just as uncomfortable as they are made by the agenda of their opponents.

It will be very different if their agenda is to love their neighbors as themselves... I meet hypocrite Christians and good Christians before, it is the love of God that constantly draws me to Christianity.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Indoctrination needn't be compulsory in order to kill foreign cultures.

Here's how it works:

You send missionaries to a foreign nation. They build schools and spread their ideology. If people cooperate freely, they will be assimilated. If they resist these efforts, however, it will be considered an "attack on noble people just trying to help"/"attack on free speech", and efforts will be made to enforce cooperation, and THEN they will be assimilated.

You don't need guns in order to conquer. All that is needed is sufficient funding to spread your influence. (This doesn't apply to Christianity alone, of course: even secular ideologies operate along these lines.)

 

[Zoness]

I remember read something that in certain times, in a Christian country, even owning a bible can put one's life at risk, because people of power claim only they can interpret the bible. That is how corrupt men became.

Plus its easy for people to just take the authority of others are universally binding. After all, in all facets of life its hard to research everything you or believe in. You take it for granted and hope it works out. The corruption of men and complacent nature of the masses are both to blame.

I come from an Atheist country, and I can tell you some of the most awful things committed by man kind are people of no religion, or of wrong religion. The reason is if man only care about this world (or misguided thinking they need to do something), they can do very awful things, where people guided by good religion will have to be pushed (or tweaked) real hard to do.

I don't dispute that nations with no official religion do awful things, there is much information that supports this idea but the idea that one does something because they fear punishment is the most basic and under-refined of human instincts. It doesn't show moral superiority by default. But it is an effective system.

It will be very different if their agenda is to love their neighbors as themselves... I meet hypocrite Christians and good Christians before, it is the love of God that constantly draws me to Christianity.

That's lucky for you. I was raised Catholic but nobody really gave it much effort in my family or community. I did not have that strong feeling of love or community and my questions were not answered so I didn't find Christianity to be a good fit for me. I'm glad it worked out for you, however.

 

[Supreme]

The terrible crimes committed against Native Americans cannot go unnoticed, yet they often are by modern Americans. Native Americans have to be one of history's most oppressed peoples, along with the Kurds, Jews and Australian Aborigines.

 

[TG123]

It isn't as much as being anti-Christian as it is being anti-government. Just as there are Lakotah Muslims there are Lakotah Christians. But, Christianity gets to be equated with the Wasicu government. Wasicu is a strange word, while an exact translation is "White Man" it has come to mean the White government and/or those who support it. A big problem is the Lakotah have never surrendered and are living under the 1878 Peace treaty. (The Treaty of Laramie) which has been consistently broken by the government.Under the treaty the Lakotah were guaranteed the right to be self governing in the Lakotah territory which has been cut down to a few reservations. The original treaty granted the Lakotah. The Orange is what the treaty promised, the red is what remains or rather what we want designated as the Republic of Lakotah. The Black are the Reservations which are the actual remnants.

I understand the anger against the government and also to "the White man", they have committed unspeakable horrors against First Nations peoples everywhere on the continent. I can understand resentment towards white Christians, since our ancestors were the ones who were responsible for the residential schools and gave their blessing to the driving of people from their lands.

What I don't understand- and am strongly against- is looking down on Lakotah Christians. Unless these people are co-operating with the American government, they are no less native than their non-Christian neighbours. Chances are that they live in the same conditions of poverty that their compatriots do, they or their parents went through the same hell of the "boarding schools", and the disappearing land belongs to them too.

What is the justification for looking down on them because of their faith?

How different would this be from looking down on Muslim Armenians, because they come from a nation which has been subjected also to occupation, discrimination, and even genocide? Are they responsible for what the Turks did?

If not, how are Lakotah Christian responsible for what the Wasicu did?

 

[TG123]

The terrible crimes committed against Native Americans cannot go unnoticed, yet they often are by modern Americans. Native Americans have to be one of history's most oppressed peoples, along with the Kurds, Jews and Australian Aborigines.

Agreed.

 

[dcalling]

Plus its easy for people to just take the authority of others are universally binding.

So true, usually people assume they are right. That is why Jesus said don't judge others, only God can judge, and don't point to the little thing in others hand while you have a big pike in the eye.

After all, in all facets of life its hard to research everything you or believe in. You take it for granted and hope it works out. The corruption of men and complacent nature of the masses are both to blame.

Very true. It took me much research on a lot of the things. Initially I like Buddhism, very pure and full of wisdom, but the Christian concept of Love and sin (and forgive of sin), and that we can't depend on ourselves but God (the last one is different than Buddhism, which initially I assumed I can help myself).

I don't dispute that nations with no official religion do awful things, there is much information that supports this idea but the idea that one does something because they fear punishment is the most basic and under-refined of human instincts. It doesn't show moral superiority by default. But it is an effective system.

Nope it doesn't show moral superiority, in fact true Christians knows there is no moral superiority in us.

That's lucky for you. I was raised Catholic but nobody really gave it much effort in my family or community. I did not have that strong feeling of love or community and my questions were not answered so I didn't find Christianity to be a good fit for me. I'm glad it worked out for you, however.

Yes I do find myself lucky. I once asked why God forbid idols and there are Jesus' image in Catholic churches, the answer shocked me (of course we are not suppose to judge, but it is clear). But no matter which denom we are from, we are no longer Christians if we "lost the initial love" in God.

 

[dcalling]

The terrible crimes committed against Native Americans cannot go unnoticed, yet they often are by modern Americans. Native Americans have to be one of history's most oppressed peoples, along with the Kurds, Jews and Australian Aborigines.

Agreed, and don't forget Armenians.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Under the treaty the Lakotah were guaranteed the right to be self governing in the Lakotah territory which has been cut down to a few reservations. The original treaty granted the Lakotah. The Orange is what the treaty promised, the red is what remains or rather what we want designated as the Republic of Lakotah. The Black are the Reservations which are the actual remnants.

Sad to see how much territory was taken and then developed afterward.

There was actually an excellent chart on the issue elsewhere, as seen here:

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It's what North America looked like prior to all of the land thefts. And you can download it and zoom in if needed.

 

[Zoness]

House Vote in Favor of the Keystone XL Pipeline an Act of War | Lakota Voice

I'm saddened but not surprised that this pipeline is going through. And people are easily duped into believing this actually will improve our already pretty good energy independence.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I am not Aboriginal, but we were made by the same God so we are brothers and sisters in humanity. My fellow Aboriginal Christians here are also my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I found a YouTube music video that I'd like to share. This is about some of the accomplishments of Aboriginal Canadians, and something I think every person in my country should check out, especially those who still subscribe to the arrogant and false notion that First Nations peoples are somehow worse than other Canadians... or should I say the newcomers. Whether those of us who are non-Aboriginal came as immigrants or whether our ancestors helped drive you from your lands, we are in your country. Often we forget this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ul4KmHlzMc

Came across this recently and I must say that it is very much on point with the way things are impacted in Native American culture...

 

[Red Fox]

I am an NDN, Cherokee and Choctaw proud. I have written many posts in other threads on I feel about America, illegal immigration, and about what has happened and what is still happening to my people, the NDNs in this country.

 

[Red Fox]

Here is an example on how I, as an NDN, feel about illegal immigration and this here is how I feel about this nation, because of what happened into my NDN ancestors.

 

[Red Fox]

All My Relations - Ulali