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To my First Nations brothers and sisters

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by TG123, Oct 5, 2014.

  1. WoodrowX2

    WoodrowX2 Member

    +47
    Muslim
    Married
    US-Democrat
    It isn't as much as being anti-Christian as it is being anti-government. Just as there are Lakotah Muslims there are Lakotah Christians. But, Christianity gets to be equated with the Wasicu government. Wasicu is a strange word, while an exact translation is "White Man" it has come to mean the White government and/or those who support it. A big problem is the Lakotah have never surrendered and are living under the 1878 Peace treaty. (The Treaty of Laramie) which has been consistently broken by the government.Under the treaty the Lakotah were guaranteed the right to be self governing in the Lakotah territory which has been cut down to a few reservations. The original treaty granted the Lakotah. The Orange is what the treaty promised, the red is what remains or rather what we want designated as the Republic of Lakotah. The Black are the Reservations which are the actual remnants. [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  2. Zoness

    Zoness Cipherpunk Supporter

    +638
    Pagan
    Engaged
    The reason that I take it as an insult is that it is typically used as one against non-theists (for some reason?). If I mistook your meaning that's my fault.

    Well recall that Protestantism as we understand it was just beginning to bloom in the European context. Even within those contexts people were not well read enough to read and understand the Bible on their own. Typically they had to depend on the Catholic church or one of the few new Protestant churches for their understanding of Christianity. The scriptures don't have to say anything on the matter but with the amount of power Christian priests had at the time, it didn't really matter.

    That's the context of most of this forum and most of the people I deal with day to day, and that's the context I will continue to operate under for this discussion since it is most applicable. I don't spend my days feeling guilty but I do recognize that its entirely possible America and Americans have done some pretty awful things. A lot of people don't want to recognize this as they'd rather pine for a perfectly just America that has never existed. My intent is to correct such false notions.

    I don't have much of a quarrel with the NT but I think its a stretch to say that such people advocating colonialism only referenced to the NT. Obviously the OT has much better bits of scripture for approaching such things to a mass audience. The world is already in a bad state, I'm not sure I would buy the assertion that Christianity's presence makes it better or worse. I've seen Christianity do some pretty wonderful things in peoples' lives and for that I am happy but since I have never witnessed the Christian God myself I have to remain skeptical.

    I feel its important to note that you can't blame "religion" or "ethnicity" as one specific cause of anything. I do not believe that any particular race or religion of people are any less moral than any others but rather its through our own cultural programming that we measure such things. I just find it disturbing that Americans in general are like "yeah, we didn't get along with Indians" and don't seem to be bothered by their crippling poverty and collapse that were largely brought on by our ancestors. All I am saying is I can understand why natives would be bothered by Christianity.

    Heck, look at the political pastors in America. No way could I support them. I know lots of Christians do but their policies and agenda make me just as uncomfortable as they are made by the agenda of their opponents.
     
  3. MehGuy

    MehGuy The situation individual guy.. Supporter

    +4,347
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Democrat
    That is really sad..

    Apparently I have some Native American roots. Everyone in my family looks white, except for my grandfather on my mother's side. He's pretty dark and probably mixed.

    I should do more reading on the subject of Native American history. I do remember watching a documentary about Geronimo. I respect individuals who are willing to stand up for their heritage and people, especially when they are facing dire odds.
     
  4. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

    +131
    Non-Denom
    Married
    No problem. It is true to some degrees as well, because with straight logic, we can apply nature to man kind.

    I remember read something that in certain times, in a Christian country, even owning a bible can put one's life at risk, because people of power claim only they can interpret the bible. That is how corrupt men became.

    Yes they did. I can still remember feeling angry during college history that how the Americans treated Indians, and feeling the same watching a documentary about the US/Mexico war.

    I come from an Atheist country, and I can tell you some of the most awful things committed by man kind are people of no religion, or of wrong religion. The reason is if man only care about this world (or misguided thinking they need to do something), they can do very awful things, where people guided by good religion will have to be pushed (or tweaked) real hard to do.

    It is very true, during the India/Pakinstian conflict, many Hindus and Muslims died by their own people to save their neighbors. People knows good or bad from their own heart. I do feel it is even easier for Christians to do good things because of the good guidance (but there will always be people who tweak hard to fit them, against the teachings).

    It will be very different if their agenda is to love their neighbors as themselves... I meet hypocrite Christians and good Christians before, it is the love of God that constantly draws me to Christianity.
     
  5. Jane_the_Bane

    Jane_the_Bane Gaia's godchild

    +2,220
    Pagan
    Legal Union (Other)
    UK-Greens
    Indoctrination needn't be compulsory in order to kill foreign cultures.

    Here's how it works:

    You send missionaries to a foreign nation. They build schools and spread their ideology. If people cooperate freely, they will be assimilated. If they resist these efforts, however, it will be considered an "attack on noble people just trying to help"/"attack on free speech", and efforts will be made to enforce cooperation, and THEN they will be assimilated.

    You don't need guns in order to conquer. All that is needed is sufficient funding to spread your influence. (This doesn't apply to Christianity alone, of course: even secular ideologies operate along these lines.)
     
  6. Zoness

    Zoness Cipherpunk Supporter

    +638
    Pagan
    Engaged
    Plus its easy for people to just take the authority of others are universally binding. After all, in all facets of life its hard to research everything you or believe in. You take it for granted and hope it works out. The corruption of men and complacent nature of the masses are both to blame.

    I don't dispute that nations with no official religion do awful things, there is much information that supports this idea but the idea that one does something because they fear punishment is the most basic and under-refined of human instincts. It doesn't show moral superiority by default. But it is an effective system.

    That's lucky for you. I was raised Catholic but nobody really gave it much effort in my family or community. I did not have that strong feeling of love or community and my questions were not answered so I didn't find Christianity to be a good fit for me. I'm glad it worked out for you, however.
     
  7. Supreme

    Supreme British

    +442
    Protestant
    Single
    The terrible crimes committed against Native Americans cannot go unnoticed, yet they often are by modern Americans. Native Americans have to be one of history's most oppressed peoples, along with the Kurds, Jews and Australian Aborigines.
     
  8. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

    +167
    Christian
    Married
    I understand the anger against the government and also to "the White man", they have committed unspeakable horrors against First Nations peoples everywhere on the continent. I can understand resentment towards white Christians, since our ancestors were the ones who were responsible for the residential schools and gave their blessing to the driving of people from their lands.

    What I don't understand- and am strongly against- is looking down on Lakotah Christians. Unless these people are co-operating with the American government, they are no less native than their non-Christian neighbours. Chances are that they live in the same conditions of poverty that their compatriots do, they or their parents went through the same hell of the "boarding schools", and the disappearing land belongs to them too.

    What is the justification for looking down on them because of their faith?

    How different would this be from looking down on Muslim Armenians, because they come from a nation which has been subjected also to occupation, discrimination, and even genocide? Are they responsible for what the Turks did?

    If not, how are Lakotah Christian responsible for what the Wasicu did?
     
  9. TG123

    TG123 Regular Member

    +167
    Christian
    Married
    Agreed.
     
  10. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

    +131
    Non-Denom
    Married
    So true, usually people assume they are right. That is why Jesus said don't judge others, only God can judge, and don't point to the little thing in others hand while you have a big pike in the eye.

    Very true. It took me much research on a lot of the things. Initially I like Buddhism, very pure and full of wisdom, but the Christian concept of Love and sin (and forgive of sin), and that we can't depend on ourselves but God (the last one is different than Buddhism, which initially I assumed I can help myself).

    Nope it doesn't show moral superiority, in fact true Christians knows there is no moral superiority in us.

    Yes I do find myself lucky. I once asked why God forbid idols and there are Jesus' image in Catholic churches, the answer shocked me (of course we are not suppose to judge, but it is clear). But no matter which denom we are from, we are no longer Christians if we "lost the initial love" in God.
     
  11. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

    +131
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Agreed, and don't forget Armenians.
     
  12. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +1,041
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    Sad to see how much territory was taken and then developed afterward.

    [​IMG]

    There was actually an excellent chart on the issue elsewhere, as seen here:



    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    It's what North America looked like prior to all of the land thefts. And you can download it and zoom in if needed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
  13. Zoness

    Zoness Cipherpunk Supporter

    +638
    Pagan
    Engaged
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +1,041
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    Came across this recently and I must say that it is very much on point with the way things are impacted in Native American culture...

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Red Fox

    Red Fox Well-Known Member

    +2,045
    Other Religion
    Private
    I am an NDN, Cherokee and Choctaw proud. I have written many posts in other threads on I feel about America, illegal immigration, and about what has happened and what is still happening to my people, the NDNs in this country.
     
  16. Red Fox

    Red Fox Well-Known Member

    +2,045
    Other Religion
    Private
    Here is an example on how I, as an NDN, feel about illegal immigration and this here is how I feel about this nation, because of what happened into my NDN ancestors.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2014
  17. Red Fox

    Red Fox Well-Known Member

    +2,045
    Other Religion
    Private
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2014