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Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Ben_Simon21438, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Her body belongs to her. By marrying me she has promised to allow me and no one else access to her body. I in turn have made the same promise to her. Neither of us owns the others body just the fidelity of the other to restrict access to only each other and never to any others.If her attire causes other men to ogle her it ought to make both of you uncomfortable. The solution would be to wear different attire but if your wife does not agree to this solution, you have a problem, not a right to force her to do what you want. A married person that is unwilling to change their attire to please their partner is not living up to the promise to love above all others and a married person that wishes to force their partner to accommodate them is also not living up to the promise as both are putting their own desires above those of their partner. Ideally, each would be happy to accommodate the wishes of the other and neither would be inclined to pull rank or use coercion , whether physical, psychological or religiously based to have their own desires fulfilled.
     
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  2. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    What part of this Chapter speaks of flaunting their wealth to the poor. I do not find that in the scripture listed. This must fall under the Out of Context category.
     
  3. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Did you NOT read the verse I had bolded?

    Gold. Pearls. Expensive clothing. Braided hair. (Mark of aristocracy)
     
  4. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    The point I was making is what you stated is not in the verse. If context matters then you cant simply add content either.
     
  5. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    What did I add?

    1 Tim 2:9 NASB
    Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
     
  6. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    You added your meaning to the verse that was not provided by the scripture.
     
  7. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    It's how the original audience would have understood it. Because, and I know this must be shocking, but there wasn't exactly much concern about women going around in mini skirts or daisy dukes in Greco-Roman society. But there was a lot of concern about people from different social strata being united together as a single people, the "one new man" St. Paul speaks of. It's the same idea that James mentions in his epistle where he condemns those who give the nicest seats to the rich and make the poor sit on the ground.

    There's no room in the Church for social hierarchies, all those things are smashed and crushed underneath the cross.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  8. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    The meaning that I "added" is supported by the text.
    You have added the meaning that "modest" refers to how much skin is being shown; which is totally UNSUPPORTED in the text.
     
  9. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    I actually agree with you on the scripture could very well apply to "for the sake of the poor". Im only saying it is not in the text. Here are a few translations that seem to agree with the thought that women should not dress in an indecent manner. But I agree I would have to put my "opinion" in to get a certain dress code "out" of the text.

    1 Timothy 2:9-10 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
    9 I want women to show their beauty by dressing in appropriate clothes that are modest and respectable. Their beauty will be shown by what they do, not by their hair styles or the gold jewelry, pearls, or expensive clothes they wear. 10 This is what is proper for women who claim to have reverence for God.

    1 Timothy 2:9-10 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
    9 Also, the women are to dress themselves in modest clothing, with decency and good sense, not with elaborate hairstyles, gold, pearls, or expensive apparel, 10 but with good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God.

    1 Timothy 2:9-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
    9 that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.
     
  10. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    At the time, Romans were getting a trickle of silk from China. That silk was highly prized for stolae by wealthy women.

    But it was also considered scandalous because of the way it hugged the curves of the body compared to wool or linen. By one writer of the day, "Women might as well be naked!"

    But Paul didn't mention, "Don't wear silk."
     
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  11. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    I hear some men have the audacity to walk around in public topless!
     
  12. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not believing it is a legitimate question.
     
  13. PreviouslySeeking...

    PreviouslySeeking... Well-Known Member

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    Men can be ever so tiresome on this subject. You become attracted to your mates at least partially because of her physical beauty, but you resent the fact you can't control that beauty once you have it.

    Look, men will ogle a woman in loose sweats or overalls if she appeals to them. Yoga pants or leggings are common place these days and hardly immodest. If your wife has a shape men find desirable- it will be apparent unless he dresses in stiff, bulky fabrics like wool & linen all the time. That would likely be expensive and uncomfortable.

    So honestly, you need to get over yourself. If your wife isn't being flirtatious or disrespectful, then you need to calm down. Look at how she carries herself and don't worry about how others carry themselves.

    Maybe you can find the right scripture to make your wife feel bad and get her to change her style of dress. But will that strengthen your marriage or brew resentment in your wife?

    I had a Jesus loving Christian husband once. He always found a Bible verse to berate me with. Well, he's on his own now and I've parted ways with the Bible.
     
  14. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    What would happen if a woman was dressed only in those clothes? Well I think that's unthinkable and not allowed for discussion here.
     
  15. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    I think one should dress appropriately for the occasion.
     
  16. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    ok so dress modest at church but dress like a hooker on the street. I get it. bikini on the beach but want come to the door in their underwear at home. makes a lot of since right. kinda hypocritical too IMAO.
     
  17. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Dressed in designer clothes, mink coats, lots of gold and platinum jewelry?

    That is what the biblical text is talking about.
     
  18. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Perhaps women should wear burkas at the beach instead?

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  19. MyChainsAreGone

    MyChainsAreGone Image Bearer

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    NW82,

    None of those passages tell a woman what to wear... only two of them tell women what NOT to wear... but the truth is that women are never commanded to make sure any particular part of their bodies are to be covered. Even nudity itself is not forbidden.

    The problem here is that we as a culture--and the church--have bought into the lie that "men are visual" and we just assume that God made us "that way"... so we put it on women to make sure that no "sexual body part" is exposed to the wrong guy's sight.

    But the Bible simply doesn't support any part of that assumption, nor the solution.

    The Solution is this: Don't Lust.

    That solution is 100% the responsibility of the guy... not the girl.

    And lust is a choice. It comes from within the man... it is NEVER the product of something outside of a man. Read Mark 7:14-23.

    After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: 15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

    17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.) 20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, [j]pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

    Nothing can prevent a guy from "ogling"... and the woman is not at fault for the man's lust.

    David
     
  20. MyChainsAreGone

    MyChainsAreGone Image Bearer

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    Absolutely NOT what this passage means. There is no "lust" or "attraction" mentioned or inferred in the 1 Tim. 2:9.

    Sadly, when this verse was translated originally for the KJV, the term "modest" didn't mean what we assign to its meaning today.

    The context of the verse itself makes clear that the point is to avoid ostentation (flaunting one's wealth)... and in that meaning only does the word "modest" apply (I live in a modest house on a modest income, and I drive a modest car). That meaning of "modest" has nothing to do with sexual propriety.

    Furthermore, I would suggest that for that an other reasons, the current translation we have from the Greek is flawed. I've done an extensive study and review of this passage, and I've written my findings in this document:

    Rightly Dividing 1 Timothy 2:9

    Before we base entire "modesty" standards on this one verse (there are no other candidates) we should examine it more deeply as I have in this article.

    David
     
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