To lie or not to lie and ethical quagmire

Tenebrae

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I'm a district nurse, and this week was in the position of having to lie to protect a patient from violence

Now I know that the bible says 'thou shall not lie' however I have a bigger problem when tellng the truth means someone could be put at risk

Thoughts
 
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murjahel

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the fact right now is there is a 'lie'... so that needs repented...

the Lord is forgiving, and restores His fellowship and blessings with ease...

the second issue is what should you have done, how could you have been truthful or silent...

we do not know enough to help much on that... because....
if it were something like a 'boyfriend visited another man's wife, and you lied to protect her from her wrong, when the husband asked you if the boyfriend had been in.... well, that kind of scenario would bring a different answer than some scenarios...

if you lied about a medical condition to a patient, you could have said... I am not the doctor, I only follow orders, I do not diagnose, please ask your doctor for that information...

so.. different scenarios require different procedures to avoid lies..

in this world of lies, it is wise to come up with some ways to avoid the temptation to tell the 'easier' lie, than the harder truth... Sometimes, saying nothing is the best way....

when asked how you like someone's hideous dress, it is sometimes necessary to say, 'that color is unique'... and avoid the 'laughter' you might have given... it avoids the lie, but never truly answers the question that might have hurt feelings...
 
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Messy

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I'm a district nurse, and this week was in the position of having to lie to protect a patient from violence

Now I know that the bible says 'thou shall not lie' however I have a bigger problem when tellng the truth means someone could be put at risk

Thoughts

Corrie ten Boom had to lie during World War II to protect people. That was no sin.
 
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murjahel

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The Bible is unhesitating in its praise of Rahab.


Hebrews 11:31 praises the faith of Rahab.

Hebrews 11:31 (KJV)
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

James 2:25 praises her lodging and sending the spies in a another way from those seeking them.

James 2:25 (KJV)
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?


Approval of Rahab in those areas does not mean God approved of other things in her life. She trusted in God more than she trusted her own king of Jericho. She had heard what God did at the Red Sea, in victorious battles in the wilderness. Rahab demonstrated her faith by receiving the spies and sending them out another way.


Joshua 6:25 (KJV)
25 And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.


The saving of the spies was her entrance into the faith. Her life changed from that time on, and she is mentioned in the heroes of faith in the book of Hebrews. Her life was not perfect in the beginning, but her faith in God then, brought her entrance into the faith. Her lie is not praised, her lodging of the spies, her sending them off a different way, was praised.


In effect she said, "I don’t know which way they went."

That was a lie. Yet, Romans 3:8 says:
Romans 3:8 (KJV)
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

This warns us not to say "Let us do evil that good may result."

We are not to use deceit in any way. Rahab was a sinner, just coming into the faith, and there is no praise to her lie.


Truth is precious in God’s sight. Even lies that are told for a good reason, are still disapproved by God. Rahab lied and it helped 2 spies escape. Could God have saved them without the lie? Of course. God allowed His plan to be fulfilled in this unusual manner, because His plan can still work in spite of the sins those trying to help Him. Lies cannot be vindicated due to God working things out despite the sins.


Does the fact that Solomon became a great king validate David’s adultery? No, David sinned and knew better, so his sin brought judgment. God blessed Solomon but not due to the sin. Rahab helped the spies, her lie is not validated by the success of her hiding them.

 
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probinson

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Some Christians today are far more judgmental of Rahab's lie than the Bible is, and you'll find people who twist and flip things all around to make it fit into their theological box.

But the fact of the matter is, the Bible says that Rahab was commended for her faith because of what she did, and despite the fact that it makes the legalistic mindset go tilt, a big part of what she did was lie to protect the spies.

:cool:
 
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Bob Carabbio

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"I'm a district nurse, and this week was in the position of having to lie to protect a patient from violence"

Congratultions!!! you protected a patient in the best way you knew how. No problem there. Keep up the good work.
 
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Tenebrae

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I believe

I may not believe in your concept of God.

I've had an incredibly draining week at work, including having to lie to protect the safety of one of my patients. And also having to make nice with the source of the danger, because if we dont keep the lines of communication open we have no way of monitoring the person at risks welfare

Telling a lie doesnt sit well with me, even in that circumstance. Closely followed by theft, adultery mistreating other people.

You have the same sort of logic that I'm sure led to a nice christian lady asked me what I do with the bodies from my human sacrifices. Assuming I'd be ok with lying is right up there with people who assume because I'm pagan I'd have no issues with killing someone in the name of my religon
Why should you worry TENNY your not even a believer anymore - so shouldn't bother you.....
 
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Svt4Him

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Some Christians today are far more judgmental of Rahab's lie than the Bible is, and you'll find people who twist and flip things all around to make it fit into their theological box.

But the fact of the matter is, the Bible says that Rahab was commended for her faith because of what she did, and despite the fact that it makes the legalistic mindset go tilt, a big part of what she did was lie to protect the spies.

:cool:

Yup, quite a bit of flipping and twisting I'd say.

James 2:25 (KJV)
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
...then lied! Oh, that part isn't in there.

But if I flip it this way...yup, she was justified by her lie and for being a harlot. Oh wait...

Am I judging her? Nope, just sticking to what it actually says.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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I'm a district nurse, and this week was in the position of having to lie to protect a patient from violence

Now I know that the bible says 'thou shall not lie' however I have a bigger problem when tellng the truth means someone could be put at risk

Thoughts
There are many examples in scripture where people lied to save lives and God did not hold it against them.
 
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Yitzchak

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Here is another example of someone lying and being blessed by God. This one actually was a case where nurses lied to protect babies from violence.




Exo 1:12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and the more they spread abroad. And they were adread because of the children of Israel.
Exo 1:13 And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigour.
Exo 1:14 And they made their lives bitter with hard service, in mortar and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field; in all their service, wherein they made them serve with rigour.
Exo 1:15 And the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah;
Exo 1:16 and he said: 'When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, ye shall look upon the birthstool: if it be a son, then ye shall kill him; but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.'
Exo 1:17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men-children alive.
Exo 1:18 And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them: 'Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men- children alive?'
Exo 1:19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh: 'Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwife come unto them.'

Exo 1:20 And God dealt well with the midwives; and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
Exo 1:21 And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that He made them houses.
Exo 1:22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying: 'Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.'
 
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Yitzchak

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The truth is that sometimes two of God's commands contradict in certain situations. This scripture passage is an example of this. God gave commands to circumcise on the 8th day and also to keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week. When the 8th day fell on the Sabbath , the Pharisees decided that the circumcision was the higher law of the two and so they circumcised and broke the Sabbath.

Joh 7:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Joh 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


Another example is found in this passage. The priests minister in the temple on the Sabbath. again , two laws contradict. The Sabbath or ministering in the temple. Also the example of David




Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.



This should not surprise us. Take an example from our laws. Is an ambulance or police car guilty of breaking the speed limit when it exceeds the speed limit ?

The good Samaritan story is another example of this principle. In the case of the good Samaritan story , it is the command to love which is considered the higher commandment. In the story , the priest and the Levite stayed ritually pure and were obedient to God in those commands , but violated the higher law of love. The Samaritan while not pure in the ritual practices , was justified based upon keeping the higher law of love.



Luk 10:26 And he said unto him, `In the law what hath been written? how dost thou read?'
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, `Thou shalt love the Lord thy God out of all thy heart, and out of all thy soul, and out of all thy strength, and out of all thy understanding, and thy neighbour as thyself.'
Luk 10:28 And he said to him, `Rightly thou didst answer; this do, and thou shalt live.'
Luk 10:29 And he, willing to declare himself righteous, said unto Jesus, `And who is my neighbour?'
Luk 10:30 and Jesus having taken up the word , said, `A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and having stripped him and inflicted blows, they went away, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31 `And by a coincidence a certain priest was going down in that way, and having seen him, he passed over on the opposite side;
Luk 10:32 and in like manner also, a Levite, having been about the place, having come and seen, passed over on the opposite side.
Luk 10:33 `But a certain Samaritan, journeying, came along him, and having seen him, he was moved with compassion,



We teach these stories in Sunday school class. But in real life , many of us find it difficult to put them into practice. It is more difficult when it is our conscience on the line and we are forced into a situation where love dictates that we violate our own principles. Typically , we distance ourselves from these Bible stories and figure the priest and the Levite were hard hearted and legalistic and figure that we do not have such rigid principles and so would never be in that sort of situation.

I think one situation which we face in modern times is divorce for the sake of abuse. Technically , the command of scripture does not allow divorce for that reason. It is silent on the matter. But the principle of the higher law of love dictates that just like the ambulance which speeds in the interest of doing right to save life , in a similar way , an exception to God's law can be made in the interests of protecting a woman and her children who are in an abusive and threatening situation. These things should be common sense. But sometimes us religious people need a little extra help because we have sensitive consciences.
 
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probinson

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Yup, quite a bit of flipping and twisting I'd say.

James 2:25 (KJV)
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
...then lied! Oh, that part isn't in there.

But if I flip it this way...yup, she was justified by her lie and for being a harlot. Oh wait...

Am I judging her? Nope, just sticking to what it actually says.

Um yeah, that's not what it actually says.

It seems two things are in order; a lesson in grammar and a refreshing of the order of events in the story of Rahab and the spies.

First, the order of events;
Joshua 2:1 (NIV)
Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim. “Go, look over the land,” he said, “especially Jericho.” So they went and entered the house of a prostitute named Rahab and stayed there.

(1) The spies arrive at Rahab's house.
Joshua 2:2-3 (NIV)
The king of Jericho was told, “Look, some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land.” So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.”
(2) The king demands Rahab to turn over the spies.
Joshua 2:4-6 (NIV)
But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, they left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.
(3) Rahab has already hidden the spies, they're still up on the roof, and she blatantly lies to the king's men about it. The king's men fall for it and are successfully misled by her lie.

In verses 8-13 Rahab then tells the spies that she knows that the Lord has given them the land, and then asks them to show kindness to her and her family, saving them from death, because of her kindness to the spies. Then the spies respond;
Joshua 2:14 (NIV)
“Our lives for your lives!” the men assured her. “If you don’t tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the Lord gives us the land.”
(4) The spies thank her for saving their lives, and then encourage her to continue her deceit by not telling anyone what they are doing.
Joshua 2:15-16 (NIV)
So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. She said to them, “Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way.”
(5) Rahab sends the spies "a different way" so they are not caught by their pursuers.

So to briefly recap, the order of events is, the spies arrive at Rahab's house and she hides them, the king's men demand she turn them over, Rahab lies by saying she didn't know where they came from and by saying they had left the city, the spies thank her for her kindness and for sparing their lives and encourage her to keep up her deceit by not telling anyone what they're doing, and finally Rahab sends the spies "a different way" to ensure they are not caught by their pursuers.

Please note that nowhere in those events did the spies admonish Rahab for her lie. In fact, the spies were demonstrating a tacit approval of her lie by allowing themselves to be hidden in the first place. They were placing Rahab in a situation where she had to lie to successfully hide them.

It has been said in previous discussions on this topic that Rahab was a "heathen" and didn't know any better. But the spies sure did, and they did absolutely nothing to stop her from what they described as her "kindness". It has also been said in previous discussions that God could have protected the spies had Rahab not lied, but that makes one wonder why the spies, who were not "heathen" by any stretch of the imagination but rather men from the army of the Lord, agreed to be hidden in the first place. It's almost like these people are upset that the story didn't take place the way they think it should have, because it offends their legalistic mindset, thus the need to explain it away.

Now the grammar lesson;
James 2:25 (NIV)
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
First, let's put to rest the silly notion that Rahab was considered righteous for being a prostitute by pointing out that "the prostitute" is simply a qualifier of Rahab. It would be like saying "Bob the builder". It's simply an explanatory phrase.

Secondly, the scripture says that Rahab was considered righteous "for what she did when..." The "when" here indicates that we're about to be told specifically "what she did" that made her be considered righteous.

So "what she did" was gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a "different direction". Now unless we completely shut our brains off, we can see from the text that the way that Rahab accomplished "what she did" was by lying. Had she not hidden the spies and lied to the king's men about it, she would have never been able to do "what she did".

Many Christians would feel better about the story of Rahab if the Bible would have explicitly addressed the lie of Rahab as being wrong. But it doesn't. Not only does it NOT say that Rahab was wrong by lying, it actually commends her for "what she did", twice. Of all the many people in scripture that "did" things, God saw it fit to include Rahab and say that she was considered righteous for "what she did". There is no footnote that says, well, she didn't know any better, or, God could have protected the spies even if she hadn't lied, or any of the other legalistic claptrap that we sometimes hear when discussing Rahab.

I sometimes wonder if God included Rahab in James to offend our idea of what and/or who should be considered righteous. Rahab demonstrated in works that she was more concerned with the safety of the Lord's men than in whether she would feel bad about her lie. I sincerely wonder if that's why God didn't deliberately send them to her instead of someone else, because some legalistic fool may well have chosen to not lie so that they would feel good about themselves at the expense of the lives of the spies, putting their own view of themselves above the safety of another.

Of course I'm not suggesting that lying is OK. Truth and honesty should prevail. But then, so should common sense. Were any of us to find ourselves in the situation described in the OP, I would hope that we would be far more concerned with the safety of the person we were responsible for than in trying to come up with the right wording so that we felt good about ourselves.

:cool:
 
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probinson

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The truth is that sometimes two of God's commands contradict in certain situations. This scripture passage is an example of this. God gave commands to circumcise on the 8th day and also to keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week. When the 8th day fell on the Sabbath , the Pharisees decided that the circumcision was the higher law of the two and so they circumcised and broke the Sabbath.

Another example is found in this passage. The priests minister in the temple on the Sabbath. again , two laws contradict. The Sabbath or ministering in the temple. Also the example of David


This should not surprise us. Take an example from our laws. Is an ambulance or police car guilty of breaking the speed limit when it exceeds the speed limit ?

The good Samaritan story is another example of this principle. In the case of the good Samaritan story , it is the command to love which is considered the higher commandment. In the story , the priest and the Levite stayed ritually pure and were obedient to God in those commands , but violated the higher law of love. The Samaritan while not pure in the ritual practices , was justified based upon keeping the higher law of love.


We teach these stories in Sunday school class. But in real life , many of us find it difficult to put them into practice. It is more difficult when it is our conscience on the line and we are forced into a situation where love dictates that we violate our own principles. Typically , we distance ourselves from these Bible stories and figure the priest and the Levite were hard hearted and legalistic and figure that we do not have such rigid principles and so would never be in that sort of situation.

I think one situation which we face in modern times is divorce for the sake of abuse. Technically , the command of scripture does not allow divorce for that reason. It is silent on the matter. But the principle of the higher law of love dictates that just like the ambulance which speeds in the interest of doing right to save life , in a similar way , an exception to God's law can be made in the interests of protecting a woman and her children who are in an abusive and threatening situation. These things should be common sense. But sometimes us religious people need a little extra help because we have sensitive consciences.

:thumbsup: Excellent post! This scripture comes to mind (emphasis added);
2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV)
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
:cool:
 
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The truth is that sometimes two of God's commands contradict in certain situations. This scripture passage is an example of this. God gave commands to circumcise on the 8th day and also to keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week. When the 8th day fell on the Sabbath , the Pharisees decided that the circumcision was the higher law of the two and so they circumcised and broke the Sabbath.

Another example is found in this passage. The priests minister in the temple on the Sabbath. again , two laws contradict. The Sabbath or ministering in the temple. Also the example of David

This should not surprise us. Take an example from our laws. Is an ambulance or police car guilty of breaking the speed limit when it exceeds the speed limit ?

The good Samaritan story is another example of this principle. In the case of the good Samaritan story , it is the command to love which is considered the higher commandment. In the story , the priest and the Levite stayed ritually pure and were obedient to God in those commands , but violated the higher law of love. The Samaritan while not pure in the ritual practices , was justified based upon keeping the higher law of love.

We teach these stories in Sunday school class. But in real life , many of us find it difficult to put them into practice. It is more difficult when it is our conscience on the line and we are forced into a situation where love dictates that we violate our own principles. Typically , we distance ourselves from these Bible stories and figure the priest and the Levite were hard hearted and legalistic and figure that we do not have such rigid principles and so would never be in that sort of situation.

I think one situation which we face in modern times is divorce for the sake of abuse. Technically , the command of scripture does not allow divorce for that reason. It is silent on the matter. But the principle of the higher law of love dictates that just like the ambulance which speeds in the interest of doing right to save life , in a similar way , an exception to God's law can be made in the interests of protecting a woman and her children who are in an abusive and threatening situation. These things should be common sense. But sometimes us religious people need a little extra help because we have sensitive consciences.
Wow!
Yes, we're sometimes too religious, we need some help with it. The New Testament law is the Law of the Spirit which made us free from the law of sin and death: Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, body and strength and your neighbour as yourself.
Tenebrae, you acted like the good samaritan.
 
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murjahel

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Colossians 3:9-10 (KJV)
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Rahab was just stepping into the faith, and the 'old man' was not yet fully changed... and put off...

the midwives were heathen, and perhaps never put off the 'old man'...

the lying spirits who instigated lies in false prophets are not ones I want to follow their example either...

God found good in Rahab saving the spies, in the midwives saving babies lives, in Ahab dying and being gone for refusing to listen to the true prophet Miciaiah, and choosing to listen to false prophets...

but, as a Christian, I choose a higher standard than that... and the N.T. is quite clear... 'lie not'... put off the old man.. put on the new...

the Spirit of Truth sets a high standard...

if some want to choose a lower one, that is between you and God...

if I were choosing a new church, and the pastor said 'some lies are good'... I would not know when to believe him/her... if your mate said, I will be honest unless there is a 'good reason' not to... would you feel as confident in their words?

Christianity is different than any other religion... one of those differences is we do not follow the 'father of lies' any longer...
 
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Colossians 3:9-10 (KJV)
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Rahab was just stepping into the faith, and the 'old man' was not yet fully changed... and put off...

the midwives were heathen, and perhaps never put off the 'old man'...

the lying spirits who instigated lies in false prophets are not ones I want to follow their example either...

God found good in Rahab saving the spies, in the midwives saving babies lives, in Ahab dying and being gone for refusing to listen to the true prophet Miciaiah, and choosing to listen to false prophets...

but, as a Christian, I choose a higher standard than that... and the N.T. is quite clear... 'lie not'... put off the old man.. put on the new...

the Spirit of Truth sets a high standard...

if some want to choose a lower one, that is between you and God...

if I were choosing a new church, and the pastor said 'some lies are good'... I would not know when to believe him/her... if your mate said, I will be honest unless there is a 'good reason' not to... would you feel as confident in their words?

Christianity is different than any other religion... one of those differences is we do not follow the 'father of lies' any longer...
I know that Corrie ten Boom and her sister differed in opinion about this. Corrie just lied if they asked if there were jews in the house and said no, just like Rahab. Her sister said it was a sin to lie and when they asked her, she said: They're under the table, which was true, but under the ground under the table. The Germans got so mad, they thought she made fun of them and those jews were safe too.
 
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murjahel

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I know that Corrie ten Boom and her sister differed in opinion about this. Corrie just lied if they asked if there were jews in the house and said no, just like Rahab. Her sister said it was a sin to lie and when they asked her, she said: They're under the table, which was true, but under the ground under the table. The Germans got so mad, they thought she made fun of them and those jews were safe too.


that was good... and there are ways, the wisdom of the Holy Spirit is promised to give us answers when before those who oppose us, and I would think that on a Spirit filled forum we would have already learned how to trust the Spirit to give us truthful answers, so we are more like the Holy Spirit than we are like the 'father of lies'...

of course, some would rather be like the heathen midwives, or the lying false prophets, or Rahab on her first day of faith... ... go figure...
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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The truth is that sometimes two of God's commands contradict in certain situations.

I don't think that they necessarily contradict. Scripture shows that God values life above all else. It's like "rock, paper, scissors". Saving a life rules over all other instructions.
 
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