To cover or not to cover, that is the question

abacabb3

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i apologize abacabb3 for my negative comments. it is a reminder how i cannot trust the flesh and i must rely on our Lord Jesus who did everything for us to attain salvation.

I apologize to anyone else who found my comments on God's Word offensive. Sometimes my own selfish ideas run amok and I forget the blessings and truth the Lord has revealed to me.

You are forgiven. I'm not sure where you stand on many things, but I just know myself that the Scripture is my only testimony about Jesus so if it is wrong or in error on one point, anything can be thrown into doubt.

When I first became a Christian, I accepted Christ as my savior and believed He rose from the dead conquering death, but I personally did not have a very high view of Scripture. By God's grace, I have been led to an increasingly high view of Scripture. Where I used to see contradictions, I can no longer see them. But, apart from God's grace, we can do nothing.
 
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moonbeam

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Do we have any other comments on this topic? I would appreciate someone following up with an earlier question I had that apart from the traditional interpretation, what modern day equivalent would satisfy Paul's teaching?


I agree with your scriptural position.

I would recommend the use of a head scarf in similar fashion to those worn by muslim women.

They are elegant, suiting the feminine aspect.

.
 
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moonbeam

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Would it be necessary to cover that extensively as the Muslims?


No.

I had in mind a typical western concept of wearing a head scarf…open faced in a design of her choosing.

As expressed by yourself and others, the wearing of a head scarf/covering as a willing sign of submission and acceptance to the will of God, in regards male headship…has intrinsic worth, only, if done by the woman concerned, for the reason stated.

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cubanito

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No, the verse explicitly mentions it is a symbol of being under authority at least in part for the Amgels to see. It is the public and visible acknowledgement by the woman that she is under the authority of man that is referenced repeatedly; even by reference to the order of creation.

One important matter not yet mentioned is that this verse written by a former very well taught Pharisee is a REVERSAL of Jewish custom wherin the man must cover his head in worship. The uncovering of the head by men at Church, a custom which was even adopted outside Church (men take hats off in respect), is still followed today...except that the Jewish men continue the older custom of covering their heads!

There are good speculations as to why the previous custom of head covering by men at worship was reversed, including by such early sources as Terulian. That covering is called a Kippah and was not a Scriptural command, which I THINK evolved from the much different veil worn by Moses.

Any covering by a woman at Church would do as it is NOT for the purpose of not "tempting men with seductive hair" which is the typical Islamic reasoning. Whatever is worn is as a SYMBOL of submission to the specific hierarchical structured established by God, as I mentioned in a previous post, and what is worn is not specified by Scripture, thus a matter of liberty.

JR
 
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No, the verse explicitly mentions it is a symbol of being under authority at least in part for the Amgels to see. It is the public and visible acknowledgement by the woman that she is under the authority of man that is referenced repeatedly; even by reference to the order of creation.

One important matter not yet mentioned is that this verse written by a former very well taught Pharisee is a REVERSAL of Jewish custom wherin the man must cover his head in worship. The uncovering of the head by men at Church, a custom which was even adopted outside Church (men take hats off in respect), is still followed today...except that the Jewish men continue the older custom of covering their heads!

There are good speculations as to why the previous custom of head covering by men at worship was reversed, including by such early sources as Terulian. That covering is called a Kippah and was not a Scriptural command, which I THINK evolved from the much different veil worn by Moses.

Any covering by a woman at Church would do as it is NOT for the purpose of not "tempting men with seductive hair" which is the typical Islamic reasoning. Whatever is worn is as a SYMBOL of submission to the specific hierarchical structured established by God, as I mentioned in a previous post, and what is worn is not specified by Scripture, thus a matter of liberty.

JR

Excellent post! Thank you. :thumbsup:
 
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moonbeam

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No, the verse explicitly mentions it is a symbol of being under authority at least in part for the Amgels to see. It is the public and visible acknowledgement by the woman that she is under the authority of man that is referenced repeatedly; even by reference to the order of creation.

One important matter not yet mentioned is that this verse written by a former very well taught Pharisee is a REVERSAL of Jewish custom wherin the man must cover his head in worship. The uncovering of the head by men at Church, a custom which was even adopted outside Church (men take hats off in respect), is still followed today...except that the Jewish men continue the older custom of covering their heads!

There are good speculations as to why the previous custom of head covering by men at worship was reversed, including by such early sources as Terulian. That covering is called a Kippah and was not a Scriptural command, which I THINK evolved from the much different veil worn by Moses.

Any covering by a woman at Church would do as it is NOT for the purpose of not "tempting men with seductive hair" which is the typical Islamic reasoning. Whatever is worn is as a SYMBOL of submission to the specific hierarchical structured established by God, as I mentioned in a previous post, and what is worn is not specified by Scripture, thus a matter of liberty.

JR


I was re-reading this thread again…and was curious if this post of yours was directed at myself, or abacabb 3….could you clarify please.

.
 
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abacabb3

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It's catching on I'm telling you! A couple in my church have begun practicing a traditional view of the practice (she deliberately put on a hoodie on her head when praying to finish a meeting) and a couple friends of mine, that have at periods fought strongly against it, at least for now take the traditional view.

Being that this is the right thread on it, here are a few reformed guys from the past and their opinions against head coverings. Take notice, their presumption is that the section is relative to one's culture, but I don't see really convincing exegesis (or history for that matter) that would prove such a point:

The Puritan Thomas Manton once wrote,
“Doct. That when God’s people are divided in opinion, all lenity and mutual forbearance should be used to prevent things from coming to an open rupture.
So sweet and mild was the discipline in the apostle’s days, that he would not compel men to do whatever he or others did conceive to be good, or to forbear what they did conceive to be evil, but, without force, leave them to God’s direction and illumination.
[1.] There may be, and often are, differences of opinion about lesser things in the church; partly because of the different degrees of light. All barks that sail to heaven draw not a like depth of water. And partly because of the remainders of corruption in all. Inordinate self-love is not in all alike broken and mortified, and so their particular interests have an influence upon their opinions. And partly because of the accidental prejudices of education and converse, &c.
[2.] When these differences arise, we should take care they come not to a rupture and open breach. This is the course the apostle taketh here; he doth not by and by despair of the dissenters, and reject them as heretics, but beareth with them, hoping in charity God will at length reveal their error to them by the ministry of his servants, through the powerful operation of his Spirit, and not suffer them to run on in dividing courses from the rest of his people. So should we do in like cases. Partly because when these differences of opinion breed division and separations, the church is destroyed”
Later in that same work he says,
“The one sort of Christians is for imposing on their brethren all things that have gotten the vogue and the favour of authority, and that not only on their practice, but their judgments too; and this in matters not fundamental or destructive to faith or worship, but in things controversial or doubtful among godly and peaceable men. But if it should not go so high, contending about every difference of opinion, and urging our brethren with everything we conceive to be right, is a breach of Christian love, and destroyeth the use of those differing gifts which Christ hath given to the church, and crosseth his mind in the frame of the scriptures, which are clear in soul-saving matters; in other things, especially matters of discipline and order, more dark and obscure. It is also contrary to the mild and gentle government of the apostles, who press in lesser matters a forbearance; as Paul, Rom. xiv. 1, ‘The weak in faith receive, but not to doubtful disputations;’ receive him, own him, but do not cast him out ‘of the church, nor trouble him for doubtful things, but let him come to himself, for men will sooner be led than drawn.”
And,
“In such cases of damnable heresy, the law of Christian lenity holdeth not; but if we agree in the principal articles of faith, let us embrace one another with mutual love, though we differ from one another in variety of rites and ceremonies and discipline ecclesiastical. If we agree in the substantial of worship, let us go by the same rule, do the same thing: though in circumstantials there be a difference, these are matters of lesser moment than separation, or the other division of the church.”
Westminster divine, Jeremiah Burroughs wrote,
“First, this contending about every difference of opinion, and urging our bretheren with what we conceive right, in matters of controversy, crosseth the end of Christ in his administration on differing gifts to his church, and human society, and his revieling of truths in different ways, some more darkly some more clearly; Christ could easily have given such gifts to all, or revealed all truths so clearly, so that every man should have been able to have seen every truth. Surely Christ did not disperse gifts, and reveal truths so differently, to that end that there might be continual matter of strife and contention in his church, and in human society. Not so there should be provocation to the exercise of cruelty upon one another, but rather that there might be excercice of love, charity, forbearance, meekness, longsuffering of one towards another. Christ bids us, charges us to be at peace amongst ourselves. If we should say, O Lord Jesus, wouldst thou have us to be at peace with one another? But there are many things in thy word, that we and our Bretheren have different apprehensions of; for though (blessed be thy Name) the great necessary things of salvation be clearly revealed, yet many other things are dark for us, that through our weakness we cannot all see the same thing. Now is it thy mind O Savior, that one man, who conceives himself to understand the truth, (and that it may be rightly) compel another to his judgment? And doest thou also require , that we must not bring our judgment to our brethren till thy light brings them? How then is it possible that we should be at peace with one another?
Do not all divines say, There are some things in Scripture wherein the Elephant may swim, some things where the lamb may wade? Matters of discipline are acknowledged by all, not to be revealed with much clearness, but that truly conscientious, upright, diligent men may not be able in many things to see the mind of Christ in them. And to what end hath Christ done this think you.”
The Puritan John Howe also wrote,
“There is still a further appearance of great carnality in such cases, when any do adventure to judge of the consciences and states of them whom they oppose, or from whom they differ: when they ascend the tribunal, usurp the throne, pass sentence upon them, as men of no conscience, or of no sincerity, or uprightness of heart with God. As if theirs were to be the universal conscience, the measure of all consciences; and he that cannot be governed by their conscience must have none at all : or he be stark blind towards truth, towards God, and towards himself, that sees not everything they see, or fancy themselves to see. This is a most high usurpation upon divine prerogative; and how can any insensibly slide into such an evil as this, in the face of so plain and so awful a text of Scripture, that so severely animadverts upon it? That 14th. to the Romans, in sundry verses of it. With what reverence and dread should it strike a man’s soul in such a case! When we have the rights of the Redeemer asserted in those whom he hath bought with his blood? What shall be thought of any such protestants, that without any color or shadow of a ground, besides differing from them in some very disputable and unimportant opinions, shall presume to judge of other men’s consciences, (and consequently of their states God-ward) which such a one as he thought it so presumptuous wickedness to attempt to over-rule or govern?
Brother, please rest assured that I take the commands of God quite seriously. I’m just trying to explain what I see the scripture to be saying, and what the Reformed faith before us has taught. Martin Luther said,
” Of course Paul does not mean that physically there is no Jew and Greek, no man and woman. He means, as related to the subject he is handling. But of what is he speaking? Not of the natural body, but of faith, justification and Christ how, through faith, we become children of God in Christ, a change effected in the soul, in man’s conscience; not in his flesh and blood, not through his members, but through the Word of the Gospel. In this sense there is no difference in persons, whether they be Jews or Greeks, bond or free, male or female. According to the customs of men, physically the Jew is bound by a different law and a different manner of life from the Greek; the bond from the free; the male from the female. The Jew is circumcised, the Greek is not; the male covers not his hair, but the female wears a veil. Then, too, everyman serves God in his own way; hence the saying, “Many countries, many customs.” These customs, however, as well as all things external and not of faith, are powerless to render one righteous and pious before God. Neither do they hinder justification. Faith may exist equally well with all classes of persons, differing not with any custom and distinctions.” (Sermons Vol. 6 pg. 242)
John Calvin opens his sermon on 1 Cor. 4 by stating
“Let us observe that St. Paul has only taken exception to something that was not appropriate and fitting according to the usage of the land. For (as we have shown) we are not to take those countries and measure them by our custom(s).”
and comments on verse 16 that,
“Now, if this rule must be observed in small things which hardly seem to be of any importance, how about when it comes to doctrine? St. Paul says that if we find an accepted custom in a people—in a church—then we must conform; each one may not do his own thing: rather we must demonstrate our desire to nurture peace.”
Calvin also remarks in the Institutes,
“But we give the name of decency to that which, suited to the reverence of sacred mysteries, forms a fit exercise for piety, or at least gives an ornament adapted to the action, and is not without fruit, but reminds believers of the great modesty, seriousness, and reverence, with which sacred things ought to be treated. Moreover, ceremonies, in order to be exercises of piety, must lead us directly to Christ. In like manner, we shall not make order consist in that nugatory pomp which gives nothing but evanescent splendor, but in that arrangement which removes all confusion, barbarism, contumacy, all turbulence and dissension. Of the former class we have examples (1 Cor. 11:5, 21), where Paul says, that profane entertainments must not be intermingled with the sacred Supper of the Lord; that women must not appear in public uncovered. And there are many other things which we have in daily practice, such as praying on our knees, and with our head uncovered, administering the sacraments of the Lord, not sordidly, but with some degree of dignity; employing some degree of solemnity in the burial of our dead, and so forth.
But because he [God] did not will in outward discipline and ceremonies to prescribe in detail what we ought to do (because he foresaw that this depended upon the state of the times, and he did not deem one form suitable for all ages), here we must take refuge in those general rules which he has given, that whatever the necessity of the church will require for order and decorum should be tested against these. Lastly, because he [God] has taught nothing specifically, and because these things are not necessary to salvation, and for the upbuilding of the church ought to be variously accommodated to the customs of each nation and age, it will be fitting (as the advantage of the church will require) to change and abrogate traditional practices and to establish new ones.”
The Augsburg Confession, to which both Calvin and Luther subscribes states,
“What, then, are we to think of the Sunday and like rites in the house of God? To this we answer that it is lawful for bishops or pastors to make ordinances that things be done orderly in the Church, not that thereby we should merit grace or make satisfaction for sins, or that consciences be bound to judge them necessary services, and to think that it is a sin to break them without offense to others. So Paul ordains,1 Cor. 11:5 , that women should cover their heads in the congregation, 1 Cor. 14:30, that interpreters be heard in order in the church, etc.”
Theodore Beza, who oversaw the production of the Geneva Bible, comments on 1 Cor. 11:4,
“Hereof he gathereth that if men do either pray or preach in
public assemblies having their heads covered (which was then a sign of subjection) they did as it were spoil themselves of their dignity, against God’s ordinance. It appeareth that this was a political law serving only for the circumstances of the time that Paul lived in, by this reason, because in these our days for a man to speak bareheaded in an assembly, is a sign of subjection. 11:5 And in like sort he concludeth, that women which show themselves in public and ecclesiastical assemblies without the sign and token of their subjection, that is to say, uncovered, shame themselves.”
The Dutch Annotations on the Bible (commissioned to be written by the Synod of Dort, and written by Theodore Haak) notes,
“he dishonors his own head (namely, forasmuch as the uncovering of the head was then a sign of power and dominion, as on the contrary now at this day those that have power over others, will keep their heads covered, and they that are under others will uncover their heads before them. But in all these things, we must always have respect to the use of diverse times and countries, and what is honorable and edifying therein, 1 Cor. 14:40; Phil. 4:8).”
 
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abacabb3

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Some more:
Wilhelmus a Brakel, the greatest theologian of the Dutch Second Reformation wrote in his Christians Reasonable Service Vol. 3 pg 151,
“it must also be noted that the word ―ceremonial is not found in the Bible and that one therefore ought not to dispute about this word. The common usage of the word signifies an ecclesiastical duty, or an external circumstance, deed, action, or transaction. In this respect there are also ceremonies in the church of the New Testament: preaching with either a covered or uncovered head, sprinkling once or thrice in holy baptism, either immersion or sprinkling at the administration of baptism, either sitting or standing when partaking of the Lord‘s Supper, etc. These are ceremonies which neither add to nor subtract from the essence of the matter.”
The Puritan Matthew Poole comments on 1 Cor. 11:4,
“Dishonoureth his head; either dishonoureth Christ who is his Head, and whom he ought to represent, and doth as it were make the church the head to Christ, which is subject to him, while by covering his head he declares a subjection in his ministration. Or he dishonoureth his own head, (so many interpret it), to wit, he betrayeth his superiority, lesseneth himself as to that power and dignity which God hath clothed him with, by using a posture which is a token of inferiority and subjection. Interpreters rightly agree, that this and the following verses are to be interpreted from the customs of countries; and all that can be concluded from this verse is, that it is the duty of men employed in Divine ministrations, to look to behave themselves as those who are to represent the Lord Jesus Christ, behaving themselves with a just authority and gravity that becometh his ambassadors, which decent gravity is to be judged from the common opinion and account of the country wherein they live. So as all which this text requires of Christian ministers, is authority and gravity, and what are external ludications of it. Our learned Dr. Lightfoot observeth, that the Jewish priests were wont in the worship of God to veil their heads; so that Christian ministers praying or prophesying with their heads covered, Judaized, which he judgeth the reason of the apostle’s assertion. The heathens also, both Romans and Grecians, were wont to minister in their sacred things with their heads covered. Some think this was the reason why the Christians used the contrary gesture; but the apostle’s arguing from the man’s headship, seemeth to import that the reason of this assertion of the apostle was, because in Corinth the uncovered head was a sign of authority. At this day the Mahometans (or Turks) speak to their superiors covered, and so are covered also in their religious performances. The custom with us in these western parts is quite otherwise; the uncovering of the head is a sign or token of subjection: hence ministers pray and preach with their heads uncovered, to denote their subjection to God and Christ: but yet this custom is not uniform, for in France the Reformed ministers preach with their heads covered; as they pray uncovered, to express their reverence and subjection to God, so they preach covered, as representing Christ, the great Teacher, from whom they derive, and whom they represent. Nothing in this is a further rule to Christians, than that it is the duty of ministers, in praying and preaching, to use postures and habits that are not naturally, nor according to the custom of the place where they live, uncomely and irreverent, and so looked upon.”
Westminster divine Daniel Cawdrey wrote in his work A Vindication of the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven,
“I answer, that for men to pray or prophesy with their heads covered, or with long hair, and women uncovered, were things in their own nature indifferent (unless you make it necessary, as a moral duty, for men to pray or prophesy uncovered, and women contra; which no interpreters upon that text do) and yet the Apostle enjoins the Corinthians so to do, ergo, the Synod may do so too. And for your instance of preaching in a gown, “A gown (say you) is a decent garment to preach in, yet such an injunction (for ministers to preach in a gown) is not grounded upon that text of the Apostle. For then, a minister in neglecting to preach in a gown, should neglect the commandment of the Apostle; which yet he does not; for if he preach in a cloak, he preacheth decently enough.” True, he sins not in point of decency; but supposing such a custom in a church (as the custom was for men, amongst Corinthians, to preach uncovered, and the women to be covered in the congregations) the Synod might enjoin all the ministers to preach in a gown, (as the Apostle did enjoin them to preach uncovered) and he that shall preach in a cloak, preaches decently indeed, but not orderly; and so sins against the Apostles rule of order, though not of decency.”
Westminster divine Thomas Goodwin wrote,
And, lastly, there is no question to be made but that many times the diversification of circumstances and aspects of things in the world, and course of God’s providence, have not only a lawful power of dissolving the binding force and authority of many examples, but of suspending our obedience to many rules, and precepts, and exhortations. As, for example, that kind of salutation between men, mentioned Gen. xxvii. 26, 1 Sam. xx. 41, and oft elsewhere, being generally left and out of use. Those injunctions of Paul, Rom. xvi. 16, 1 Cor. xvi. 20, and elsewhere, ‘ Greet ye one another with an holy kiss,’ impose no such literal tie upon the saints in these days, as when they were written ; neither do I conceive (nor, I suppose, you) that the elders of the church are now bound to anoint the sick with oil, because this is commanded, James v. 14. Neither do I conceive that the French churches lie under any guilt of sin, for suffering their teachers to have their heads covered in their public ministry, notwithstanding the rule or direction of Paul : 1 Cor. xi. 4, “Every man praying or prophesying, having anything on his head, dishonoureth his head ;’ because that topical custom among the Grecians, upon which Paul built this rule or assertion, is wholly disused by their nation, and the contrary generally practiced among them. Though I do not think this scripture is to be restrained to the teachers only, but to concern as well the whole assembly of men present, who are all here said to pray or prophesy in a passive sense (as women also are, ver. 5), that is, to partake of these ordinances with the teachers. Other like instances might be given. And doubtless the rule that Cameron gives (who was a man of as much learning, sharpness of wit, and happiness in opening the Scripture, as any of the reformed churches in France, yea, I may say, in any part of the world, have enjoyed of latter times) is most true. There are many things commanded in Paul’s epistles whereof there is no use at this day.” (Works Vo. 11 pg. 581)
 
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