Title: CHIEF ARTICLES OF FAITH - Article I - GOD

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MarkRohfrietsch

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Topic: Catholic Lutheran Dialogue - The Augsburg Confession and the Confutatio Pontificia - Where we were then, and where we are now. (First in a series of Article by Article discussions relating to these historic documents).

Title: CHIEF ARTICLES OF FAITH - Article I - GOD


  1. MarkRohfrietsch will represent the Lutheran Position; Athanasias will represent the Catholic position.
  2. Following the historic pattern, the opening posts of each discussion in this series will consist of the particular Articles themselves (The Augsburg Confession) , and the corresponding response as presented from the Confutatio (1530 Roman Confutation). Mark will then open the discussion with Athanasias responding.
  3. Sincethis is a one-on-one discussion rather than a debate the number of rounds will be three each, however, by consent of both participants, if the discussion has run it's course, the discussion may be closed early; if it has not run it's course, the participants may agree to extend it. (Some articles such as the first historically resulted in little dispute, so the discussion may be quite short; others not so much;))
  4. The posts will be alternating.
  5. Since both of us lead busy lives, we will not be setting a time between posts.
  6. The maximum length for each post will be limited to the word count capacity of a single post.
  7. All quotes and outside references are allowed. Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% copyright rule. Also note that all quotes from the Lutheran Confessions and the Confutation will be taken from the unaltered Book of Concord; 1580 edition found here: http://bookofconcord.org.
  8. Start date-Very soon.;)
  9. In this discussion there will be three Peanut Galleries; one will be set up in General Theology , One Bread, One Body - Catholic, and Theologia Crucis - Lutherans. Please note that the Christian Only rules apply in General Theology, and the Congregational rules apply in both the OBOB and TCL threads.
Peanut Gallery threads:

 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Article I: Of God.

1] Our Churches, with common consent, do teach that the decree of the Council of Nicaea concerning the Unity of the Divine Essence and concerning the Three Persons, is true and to be believed without any doubting; 2] that is to say, there is one Divine Essence which is called and which is God: eternal, without body, without parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness, the Maker and Preserver of all things, visible and invisible; and 3] yet there are three Persons, of the same essence and power, who also are coeternal, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. And the term "person" 4] they use as the Fathers have used it, to signify, not a part or quality in another, but that which subsists of itself.
5] They condemn all heresies which have sprung up against this article, as the Manichaeans, who assumed two principles, one Good and the other Evil: also the Valentinians, Arians, Eunomians, Mohammedans, and all such. 6] They condemn also the Samosatenes, old and new, who, contending that there is but one Person, sophistically and impiously argue that the Word and the Holy Ghost are not distinct Persons, but that "Word" signifies a spoken word, and "Spirit" signifies motion created in things.

From The Confutatio Pontificia: To Article I.

Especially when in the first article they confess the unity of the divine essence in three persons according to the decree of the Council of Nice, their Confession must be accepted, since it agrees in all respects with the rule of faith and the Roman Church. For the Council of Nice, convened under the Emperor Constantine the Great, has always been regarded inviolable, whereat three hundred and eighteen bishops eminent and venerable for holiness of life, martyrdom and learning, after investigating and diligently examining the Holy Scriptures, set forth this article which they here confess concerning the unity of the essence and the trinity of persons. So too their condemnation of all heresies arising contrary to this article must be accepted - viz. the Manichaeans, Arians, Eunomians, Valentinians, Samosatanes, for the Holy Catholic Church has condemned these of old.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Greetings Athanasias!

It is my hope and my prayer that the Holy Spirit guide us and help us grow in our faith as we explore these historic writings, and expressions of our faith from the points of view of both the Lutheran Fathers of the reformation, and their Catholic counterparts.

Having gained much insight from our discussion on the nature of the Priesthood, I have been eagerly anticipating this little project of ours so that we and our brothers and sisters in Christ who will be following these discussions may come to a deeper understanding of not only where our differences lie, but note those many things which we share and hold in common.

In the interest of what we do share and hold it is most fitting that this series begins with an uncontested Article. Considering that both the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church retain the Three Ecumenical Creeds as confessions or symbols of faith, agreement on this Article comes as no surprise.

I'm taking the easy way out on this post, and reaffirming our agreement on this article in the words of Philip Melanchthon's response to the refutation found in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:

The First Article of our Confession our adversaries approve, in which we declare that we believe and teach that there is one divine essence, undivided, etc., and yet, that there are three distinct persons, of the same divine essence, and coeternal, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

This article we have always taught and defended, and we believe that it has, in Holy Scripture, sure and firm testimonies that cannot be overthrown. And we constantly affirm that those thinking otherwise are outside of the Church of Christ. and are idolaters, and insult God.

Athanasias, I await your response, and I will let you make the call if we need to go further with the discussion of this article.

Blessings and peace to you my friend!
Mark
 
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Athanasias

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Thank you Mark my brother. I am greatful truly to be a participant in such awesome dialog. I am humbled because of this that you chose me. I thank you very much. Its exciting and great fun for me to learn from you and the official Lutheran confessional documents about the Lutheran faith and how it relates to my own faith in the Church universal.

BTW excellent set up! :) I love how you posted both post on this. This makes it easy for everyone to read and see.

For those who are reading this who are not part of the dialog but watching it and responding in the peanut gallery I say enjoy this. Mark and I are friends who respect each other very much and have much in common as you will see in this dialog but also we have our theological differences too. This is a ecumenical prayerful dialog that seeks to understand the other Churches position for our own enlightenment and spiritual growth and help others see our own position better.

Now for the Catholic answer to this first article on God:

Yes! :) We agree 100%. How is that for short! :) We do both hold to the infallible truths given to us about the nature of God who has revealed to us that He is a Holy Blessed Trinity which is revealed implicitly in sacred scripture and explicitly in apostolic tradition and formally defined and declared by the Holy ecumenical Councils of Nicea and Constantinople and expressed in the Nicean-constantinopolean creed which we both profess on Sundays.

:) Well that was easy! Next! LOL. Seriously I look forward to more good reading and dialog. Thanks my brother!
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Closing this one as completed.

Athanasias, you and I have participated in a CF first... a formal debate thread that ended in full agreement.:);)

I will set up the next discussion and post in our proposal thread, and the Peanut Gallery threads when it is up.

Blessings and peace,

Mark
 
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