Tithing:

[Andyman_1970]

Tithing has turned out to be the modern way of selfishness. 10% belongs to God and the rest is MINE. What folly.

Listen. The tithe was introduced to support the Levitical priesthood. When the priesthood was abolished the support system also was abolished.

Now, support for the organization you belong to is a different matter. You should do so, but please don't say you are tithing. The word means nothing. If you are tithing because you are afraid you will be smitten if you don't you could just as well throw the money in the street, or send it to me.

Very well said, amen brotha.................

 

[probinson]

Except that your understanding of the tithe is a false teaching and twisting God’s Holy Word.

Wow. That's a bold statement. Andyman, you sure like to boast about your knowledge and how you've cracked the code and how you have the one, true translation and interpretation and everyone else is wrong, despite evidence (fruit) in our lives from tithing. Is it not even remotely possible that you are wrong? Do you think just like God? I doubt it.

Isaiah 55:8 (KJV)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

(The Message)
"I don't think the way you think.
The way you work isn't the way I work."
GOD's Decree.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Wow. That's a bold statement. Andyman, you sure like to boast about your knowledge and how you've cracked the code and how you have the one, true translation and interpretation….

I don’t claim this as something I “discovered” it’s in God’s Holy inspired infallible Word, in black and white, it’s not some private interpretation of the Text.

So what should one call a teaching or idea that is provable from God’s word to be false? Paul had even stronger words for false teachers………………

So again, if your position is not false, prove it. Show me the Scriptures where God “switched” the tithe as He specifically defined it to what we do now…….show me. If you can show me that I’ll post a public apology for the “false” statement I made.

If you can’t show me from God’s Holy inspired infallible Word then it’s a false teaching pure and simple.

and everyone else is wrong, despite evidence (fruit) in our lives from tithing. Is it not even remotely possible that you are wrong? Do you think just like God? I doubt it.

I would respectfully say any evidence that is contrary to God’s Holy inspired infallible Word is not of God. Since you cannot or choose not to show me and others where God in His Word (not someone’s “revelation”) “switched” the tithe from what He specifically defined it as you are leaving yourself with no Biblical substantiation for your position.

Isaiah 55:8 (KJV)
[/size][/color][/font]For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

(The Message)
"I don't think the way you think.
The way you work isn't the way I work."
GOD's Decree.

So then I guess this gives us license to just run fast and loose with the Text and bend it and shape it to make it mean whatever we want to suit whatever doctrine someone cooks up? So God did not mean what He said in Deuteronomy 14? So God did not mean what He said in Numbers 18, so God did not mean what He said in Leviticus 27???

This is an awfully slippery slope to put your argument on, that we can’t know God’s ways, that argument can be turned on you as well, how do you know the “experiences” you had are from God if as you say we can’t know how He works?

Once again context is key here…………….I wish I had a nickel every time I said that on a tithe thread, I could probably feed a lot of hungry people……………..(Matthew 25:44-46)

 

[probinson]

This is an awfully slippery slope to put your argument on, that we can’t know God’s ways, that argument can be turned on you as well, how do you know the “experiences” you had are from God if as you say we can’t know how He works?

Certainly you don't suggest that my "experiences" are just dumb luck, or worse, satan blessing me? Where else do good things come from?

I will admit my interpretation could be wrong. You will not. You claim that there is absolutely no other way to read the scripture and you have repeatedly said that context is the key, ignoring the fact that you may have the wrong context all together.

Serving God, at least for me, is not an analytical formula. I choose to know God as my Father, and as such, I can know His heart. Call it subjective, call it ignorant. Call it what you will. But I believe that my God is far greater than my knowledge and understanding. My life has shown me this.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Certainly you don't suggest that my "experiences" are just dumb luck, or worse, satan blessing me? Where else do good things come from?

Pete (if I may call you Pete, if I may not my apologies), first you have yet to address the question of God “switching” the tithe…………that speaks volumes.

I will admit my interpretation could be wrong. You will not. You claim that there is absolutely no other way to read the scripture and you have repeatedly said that context is the key, ignoring the fact that you may have the wrong context all together.

So the Old Testament and Jesus were not Jews???? If my interpretation was based on anything other than the Holy inspired infallible Word of God in the context in which it was written I would give some wiggle room. Feel free to show me contextually how I was wrong though.

So again, if you have some Biblical evidence that can prove God changed the tithe from what He defined it as to what it is now I would be interested in seeing it.

The Bible is our baseline, as it were, anything that deviates from it needs to be closely examined. If we don’t use the Bible as our baseline what then do we use? Peoples experiences and revelations? How do I know they are of God if I can’t use the Bible as a baseline? How do I know Mormonism is wrong or the JW’s? If I don’t use God’s Holy Word, how do I know Universalism is not wrong, or that Jesus was just a man?

Serving God, at least for me, is not an analytical formula.

Nor is it for me.

I choose to know God as my Father, and as such, I can know His heart. Call it subjective, call it ignorant. Call it what you will. But I believe that my God is far greater than my knowledge and understanding. My life has shown me this.

With all due respect if what is revealed to you as God’s heart does not line up with the Bible I seriously question where it is from God.

 

[probinson]

(Yes, you may call me Pete)

Let me restate my question, Andyman. Is it possible that your interpretation could be wrong?

 

[Andrew]

Tithing has turned out to be the modern way of selfishness. 10% belongs to God and the rest is MINE. What folly.

There is a teaching or attitude that says, "Why only 10%? Everything of mine belongs to God!" In the end, there is no tithe becos of the excuse: "Well, everything of mine belongs to God already, so the tithe is insignificant!"

They fail to understand God's system. Yes, God is the source of all our blessings. But He is the only Senior Partner that asks for 10% and let's us keep the 90%. That is His grace.

So forget this false humility of "Everything belongs to God!" If you say that, then put your money where your mouth is and give everything you have to God today -- your home, your car, your PC, your .... !

 

[Godzchild]

THE LAW OF THE TITHE

I have always found it interesting how certain church teachers have selected certain portions of the Jewish law to carry over into this new and living covenant of faith in Jesus Christ, then force the Gentile church to follow these Jewish laws and customs which our so called "leaders" pick and choose for their own convenience and well being and for the survival of their man made institutions.

The doctrine of tithing is such an example. It is clearly an old covenant law:

You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry [the tithe, or] if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you, then you shall exchange [it] for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. (Deuteronomy 14:22-29).

When a man forces this law on the people to insure for himself a steady income, or salary, he puts himself and his church under a curse, not a blessing. He also ceases to live by faith. You see, Paul is teaching here that you can't pick and choose when it comes to the law. As we saw from Galatians chapter three, if you follow the smallest portion of it you must keep "everything written in the Book of the Law" perfectly.

In Galatians chapter five Paul continues this theme.

Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. . .For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."

When you try to build a strong argument for legalistic tithing from the New Testament, you are really hard pressed to find any scriptural backing. It is interesting that a practice so heavily taught today in churches is barely mentioned by the New Covenant writers.

They only mentioned the practice of tithing in four places:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. (Matthew 23:23, NIV).

Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. (Luke 11:42, NIV).

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: "God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get."

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner." I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. (Luke 18:10-14, NIV).


Just think how great he (Melchizedek) was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people--that is, their brothers--even though their brothers are descended from Abraham. This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he (Melchizedek) collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater.

In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. (Hebrews 7:4-10).

In the first two passages, Jesus is chastising the self-righteous Pharisees for tithing, while at same time leaving what matters most undone like justice, love (mercy), and faithfulness. He seems to be saying that they should not have left justice, mercy and love undone in favor of their tithing. Jesus is blasting the Pharisee who stood before God boasting of his regular tithing on the one hand, while He commended the hated tax collector for approaching the alter in humility and getting the forgiveness that he asked for. Wouldn't this have been an excellent chance for Jesus to make it clear how important it is for His church to tithe? Instead, He stresses the importance of showing mercy, doing justice, and walking humbly before God (Micah 6:8).

In the Hebrews passage the author is showing us that Jesus was not of the Levitical priesthood, but of a higher order of authority by comparing him to the mysterious prince and priest of Salem (now called Jerusalem), Melchizedek. Abraham gave Him ten percent of his spoils of war after rescuing his nephew, Lot, from some heathen kings. Here once again Jesus in the form of Melchizedek fulfilled the law of the tithe with the help of Abraham, the man of faith.

For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope (Jesus) did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. (Hebrews 7:17-19, KJV).

It amazes me that throughout the entire New Testament , neither Jesus nor the Apostles stressed how important that it is that the Gentiles should tithe to their Churches, yet, today it is one of the most repeated teachings coming from our pulpits. As Shakespeare wrote in Hamlet, "The lady doth protest to much, methinks."

Look at the contrast of Paul's heart concerning taking from the Church.

I will not be burdensome to you for I seek not what is yours, but you, for the children ought not save up for the parents, but the parents for the children. And I will gladly spend and be spent for you.(2 Corinthians 12:14,15).

Now you are probably saying, "If this is so, how are we going to support all our buildings and pastoral staffs?" The New Testament church didn't see this as a problem. Those who were doing the work of ministry were walking by faith. These men and women trusted God to meet their needs and often worked to support themselves and others. These believers practiced giving to the poor and the needy ( See Acts 2:44-45, 4:32; James 1:27; I John 3:17-18), and were encouraged to support the ministries feeding them (see I Corinthians. 9:9 and I Timothy 5:18). They often gave their whole fortunes, not just ten percent, because of the overwhelming love of God for the lost, the needy and His ministers. But there were no salaries and no buildings to support, just hearts that supplied the needs of all in need out of love.

 

[Andrew]

Well, no ones talking about tithing under law. So i wish we could get pass that once and for all.

We are talking about tithing under the New Mechizedek priesthood of Jesus the asecended Christ...

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/tithingandhebrews7.html

 

[Godzchild]

Did you actually read the post?

 

[Andrew]

yes, and as I said, I'm not interested in tithing under law but under grace, under the Melchizedek priesthood. So if you want to bring in the law on tithing and how it doesnt apply today, I'm not going to waste my time arguing about that cause its irrelevant.

 

[Godzchild]

If you read my post as you say then you would have seen the part about the Melchizedek priesthood.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Tithing: Legalism is from the Law while Grace is from the Heart. Rules can be abused: Matthew 23:1-4 and Galatians 6:12-13.

We never see the word "tithe" in the New Testament because it is from the Old Testament (the Law). Therefore tithe is from the Law. In the New Testament, we see the words "give" or "giving" or "cheerful giver" because they are related to grace. (see Mark 12:41-44, Romans 12:8). God wants our hearts more than He want us to follow rules.

I was a treasurer for one local church and I can see financial hardship a small local church can face. Lack of love giving from the members created lack of spiritual services that a local church can provide for members.

The concept of 2 Corinthians 8:9 is actually about GIVING and sharing your wealth to a local church. If you look the whole chapter (8), you will see how the topic of wealth came up.

Does verse 9 say: “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that for you he became poor in one currency because he was rich in another currency, so that you by his poverty might become rich in that same currency”???

We all are capable of working, earning money and provide our family's needs. God gave us opportunities for us to be successful in our lives and at the same time, God do not want us to forget those who are not. There were those who made alot of money wanted to help those who did not make alot of money. God allowed some people to be wealthy.

2 Corinthians, Chapter 8 is about giving. Those early Christians in the early church did a remarkable thing; no one told them they had to share and give in the manner that they did. They had just been filled with the Holy Spirit who would help them to be more like Jesus and to walk and live as He would in a loving and giving manner. While we as Christians are not under a legalistic law that gives us specific details on our giving, again, we are indeed commanded to be giving people, and we ought to look for opportunities to give.

2 Corinthians 9:7 "God loves a cheerful giver." The word cheerful is from Greek word hilaros, from which we get the word hilarious. That's when you're just beside yourself with joy and happiness! Our Lord wants us to learn that we will be a lot happier when we give than when we receive!

Mark 10:17-22 Jesus said: You've got to start giving, but the rich young ruler was more concerned with having!

Luke 12:16-21 The rich farmer thought he would be happy because he had a great deal of wealth, but Jesus knew better. Jesus knew the only way for him (and anyone) to be truly happy was to start giving.

The key is that we have to learn to trust God with our investment to Him and to others. Giving is indeed the very heart of Christianity! Giving is what Christianity is all about! And abundant giving is the key to abundant living! As we strive to grow in Christ, may God help us to abound in this grace also. Do share your wealth to those who cannot make money !!!

Matthew 6:21, "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Fiscally successful is not wrong in and of itself, but we might find that a lot of our money is going for things that really aren't that important compared with spiritual things. How much of our money is going to God? To the work of God? And to other good works? Are we truly laying up for ourselves treasures in heaven?

Just my thoughts.

 

[StevenL]

The concept of 2 Corinthians 8:9 is actually about GIVING and sharing your wealth to a local church. If you look the whole chapter (8), you will see how the topic of wealth came up.

If you really look at those "giving" chapters you'll see that they were giving out of their extreme poverty (not sharing "wealth") to fellow believers in Jerusalem who worse off than they. They were meeting a need of individual brothers and sisters. (Probably because of the famine.) Our idea of "giving to a local church" is vastly different from what these people were being taught to do. This giving teaching from Paul was based on the principle of the gathering of the manna...."those who gathered little had no lack and those who gathered much had nothing left over". Of course, this is not taught much in our local "churches" either. But the "tithe" is preached as if the teaching were on every other page in the Bible. The "tithe" is in fact taught nowhere in the New Covenant writings as a law or even a money or giving principle for the Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek. To bring this teaching into the Ekklesia is to make oneself a False Teacher.

 

[Andyman_1970]

To bring this teaching into the Ekklesia is to make oneself a False Teacher.

Amen brotha.......................