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Tithing in the Bible for NT Christians

Discussion in 'Traditional Adventists' started by BobRyan, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Ok - first of all few baseline details.

    1. There is no command in the NT to "not take God's name in vain" -- we all know that. But that does not mean this is now ok to do.

    2. The formal OT order of Priest - ended according to Hebrews 7 at the cross. We are now under the new system of 1Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4 - where we have Pastors, teachers, evangelists, Bible teachers etc.

    3. In the OT the tithe paid the priests and Levites who conducted worship services maintained the temple - taught.

    Under the NT model we still have worship, and Bible teaching, and spiritual leadership in the local congregation. It is in the form of 1Cor 12 and Ephesians 4 -- pastors, Bible teachers, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  2. robert skynner

    robert skynner Beware of religion and religious people

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    Hello Bob Ryan,

    I don't know what you are asking me to say or do? Also will our discussion me in a new thread without others interrupting us?

    1. The law was not given to the gentiles (Psalm 147:19-20), thus the 3rd commandment does not apply today to gentile converts to Christ. However, Christ summed up the essence of Christianity as love God will all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, so without being under the law, converts to Christ ought to respect God.

    2. I do not accept your phrase "we are under a system." Also what do you mean by etc, I am certainly not agreeing to an etc. You missed out Apostles, and that category of Apostles who witnessed the resurrected Christ is no more today (Acts 1:21-26).

    3. The tithe went to the levites (Numbers 18:21), then out of this levitical tithe, a tithe of a tithe (temurah maaiser) went to the priests (Numbers 18:24-28).
     
  3. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    This is the New Covenant law on giving.

    "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
    (2 Corinthians 9:7).

    It says every man should give according to what he has purposed in his heart to give and he is not to give out of necessity. Yes, God loves a cheerful giver, but besides supplying the needs of the saints, there is no rule in how we are to give to them and by what amount here. We can give in many ways our resources to God by helping the poor and or starting a tract ministry or saving for a mission's trip by taking trusted Christians with you (By making disciples). We can help our fellow brothers financially who we know are obeying God and His Word. But this does not have to be to a church. It can be to a video minister who preaches out of his house. But the amount of giving is what we decide. There is no more tithing.


    ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Are you wanting a 1 on 1 conversation with him? Or is the input of others welcome?
     
  5. inquiring mind

    inquiring mind associate with those you can learn from Supporter

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    Whatever you can give, I'm sure you'll be rewarded accordingly.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    This is not a closed discussion/thread so anyone can post here if that is what you mean.

    By that logic Christians could take God's name in vain. But nobody goes for that. (And of course there is no text that says that it was not a sin for gentiles to murder or steal or take God's name in vain - it was just a sin if Jews did it.)

    Not even Psalms 147 does not say that it is ok for Gentiles to sin. Certainly they all came from Noah -- and the world of Noah's day destroyed because of sin. In Genesis 4 Cain is told that "Sin is at your door but you must master it" when Cain is thinking evil of Able and angry to the point of murder.

    In fact Leviticus 18 says that God wiped out totally ignorant gentile nations for violating certain laws of God. And of course the entire Genesis 6 world wide flood due to man's sin shows it. So also does the destruction of Sodom in Genesis 19.

    Lev 18
    26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled . 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

    What is more in Isaiah 56 Gentiles are specifically told to the keep the Sabbath.

    A great many Christians today consider themselves "New Covenant" Christians - but of course the Jeremiah 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:6-10 "New Covenant" like the TEN Commandments -- is made with "The House of Israel and the house of Judah" according to "the text".

    Romans 2 tells us why --
    25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


    2 Timothy 3:16 "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for teaching, instruction, correction"

    However, Christ summed up the essence of Christianity as love God will all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, so without being under the law, converts to Christ ought to respect God.

    Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law"

    1 Cor 7:19 "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

    Acts 1 defines an Apostle as one who lived at the time of Christ and saw his miracles - heard his teaching. So by definition that group no longer exists. but the others have no such definition in either 1 Corinthians 12 or in Ephesians 4.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  7. robert skynner

    robert skynner Beware of religion and religious people

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    Bob, thank you for going to so much trouble on my behalf, I've copied your post and will read it again later when i go home.
    Robert
     
  8. robert skynner

    robert skynner Beware of religion and religious people

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    Excellent post.
     
  9. robert skynner

    robert skynner Beware of religion and religious people

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    This statement is irrelevant to tithing. Tithing is not giving, it was a command (a tax) under the levitical law. My point is that Christians are not under the mosaic law or parts of it pertinent to tithing.
     
  10. robert skynner

    robert skynner Beware of religion and religious people

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    I am looking for a 1 on 1 conversation with anyone. No other input needed, but I am happy to start several 1 on 1 conversations.
     
  11. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase

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    I give back to God out of love and thankfulness.... God gives me everything I have, so I give Him back a thank offering.

    God created 7 days in the week... He gave me 6 to do my pleasure, so I give Him 1 as He has asked. Fair deal, no?

    God's supplies 100% of my families income... we get to keep 90% and give 10% back to Him as thanks.... good deal, right?
     
  12. robert skynner

    robert skynner Beware of religion and religious people

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    I was hopeing for a 1 on 1, under the title (which I oppose): "Does the Bible command Christians to pay tithes today?" However, I am willing to be flexible. Who goes first and how long ought the posts to be? By the way tithing is not giving and I am not here to debate giving.
     
  13. robert skynner

    robert skynner Beware of religion and religious people

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    Do I reply to this? Is there a set length of post?
    Could I ask that we both agree to debate the title: "Does the Bible command Christians to pay tithes today?" I will oppose this. Please let me know if these rules are OK? This is the debate title which I have offered and am prepaired to discuss.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  14. robert skynner

    robert skynner Beware of religion and religious people

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    Do you have any scripture to support these claims of yours?
     
  15. inquiring mind

    inquiring mind associate with those you can learn from Supporter

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    I didn’t say anything about tithing. I agree that tithing is not required… so, how could it not be giving?
     
  16. robert skynner

    robert skynner Beware of religion and religious people

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    Yes, and I am prepared to give them, but only once the debate title has been agreed with Bob Ryan my opponent:
    "Does the Bible command Christians to pay tithes today." I will not debate until this title is agreed. Now can you offer scripture for your claims.
     
  17. inquiring mind

    inquiring mind associate with those you can learn from Supporter

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    I will answer your question, if you answer mine.
     
  18. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase

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    Scripture for God supplying all we have? Or scripture that I give Him 10% as tribute?

    For the latter, I refer you to God's clear admonision of robbing Him... you may not take that as still relevent, but I do. He didn't stop supplying my needs so why would I think He wouldn't still expects an acknowledgement or thanx?
     
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 2:2-3 It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it, 3 and many peoples shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law,[a] and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

    The Jews were intended to be a light to the nations, so the issue of who the law was given to is not necessarily the same as the issue of who the law was intended for. The Mosaic law was given to reveal what sin is, with it we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so when we are told not to do the things that God has revealed to be sin, then it shouldn't be difficult to figure out what we need to look up to find out what we should avoid doing. Jesus set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6). He came with the message to repent from our sins for the kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17), so repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic law is a central part of the Gospel message. Our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what God has revealed to be godly, righteous, and good and trained to renounce doing what He has revealed to be ungodly and sinful (Titus 2:11-14), which is essentially what the Mosaic law was given to instruct us how to do (Romans 7:7, Romans 7:12). God has given instructions for how to act according to His holiness, righteousness, and goodness, which are eternal and do not change, and we are followers of the same God, so it is more an issue of who the law was given by than who it was given to.

    According to Galatians 5:16-23, everything that is listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic law, while everything listed as works of the Spirit are also in accordance with the law, so it doesn't make any sense to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring to us not being under the Mosaic law if we are led by the Spirit, especially when the law was given by God, the Spirit is God, and the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Likewise, it doesn't make any sense to interpret Romans 6:14 as referring to the Mosaic law because it is not the Mosaic law which Paul described as sin having dominion over him, but the law of sin, which he contrasted with the Mosaic law (Romans 7:22-23).

    All of the 613 laws of the OT and 1,050 laws of the NT can be summed up as instructions for how to love God and how to love our neighbor, so all of the other laws are examples or the explanation for how to correctly obey the greatest two commands. There are more ways to love God and our neighbor than what the law lists, so if we correctly understand the essence of the law or the spiritual principle of love, then our love will go above and beyond what the law requires, but at least do what it requires. We should not follow God's command to love while ignoring His commands for how he wants us to love, but rather we should seek to love in the way that He wants us to love according to the example of obedience that Jesus gave.

    In Romans 7:14, Paul said that the law is spiritual, so while there are no Levites for us to support, we should still follow the same spiritual principles of tithing to support those who work in ministry and to support the poor.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
  20. robert skynner

    robert skynner Beware of religion and religious people

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    Thank you for going to so much trouble writing this, I will save this to my memory stick and read this again later.