Timeline: animal domestication before the Flood?

[ViaCrucis]

That there were 3 phases of restoration in antiquity, each of lower quality than the preceding one was pretty much my entire thesis in a nutshell, so I think you are reading more into what I wrote than I intended.


A heavily polluting industrial civilization like ours would leave a huge array of clear traces. I'm talking about nothing more advanced than 17th-century technology as far as industrialization goes. That is still an extremely advanced level of society compared to what is thought of all prehistoric humans.

And there is zero evidence of any society that was that technologically advanced. Ten thousand years ago the most advanced human societies were neolithic agrarian societies.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Mike Reynolds]

And there is zero evidence of any society that was that technologically advanced. Ten thousand years ago the most advanced human societies were neolithic agrarian societies.

There was a globally navigating human race here before and there is clear evidence of declining stone masonry capabilities around the world and that they were doing this before the invention of agriculture such as is unquestionably true at Gobekli Tepe. As well as similar global themes such as the style of the hands around the waist at Gobekli Tepe is virtually identical to other sites around the world.

There are also lots of things where they don't belong. South American monoliths show statues of heavily bearded men. Mummies have nicotine and cocaine in them. Ancient Hindu statues depict goddesses holding ears of corn, just to name a tiny # of the "ooparts" as archeologists call them. Clearly, there was a globally navigating human race here before.

 

[ViaCrucis]

There is clear evidence of declining stone masonry capabilities around the world and that they were doing this before the invention of agriculture such as is unquestionably true at Gobekli Tepe. As well as similar global themes. The style of the hands around the waist at Gobekli Tepe is virtually identical to other sites around the world. South American monoliths show statues of heavily bearded men. Mummies have nicotine and cocaine in them. Clearly, there was a globally navigating human race here before.

People were working with stone in the neolithic. This isn't shocking.

People were traveling around the globe, spreading out from Africa beginning about 70,000 years ago, they took advantage of land bridges which existed during the last ice age, such as the Bering land bridge which connected eastern Siberia with Alaska, they used primitive water vessels to traverse short distances across the sea to populate island chains in Australasia. This isn't shocking.

And the claims of the discovery of nicotine and cocaine on mummies is heavily disputed on the basis that:

1) Results have been inconsistent from consequent examination.
2) The results can be easily accounted for as modern contamination of the mummies.

If the findings are authentic, rather than being a case of contamination or false findings, the most it would provide us with is an example of pre-Columbian contact between the old and new worlds; not technologically advanced civilizations in the neolithic period. This would certainly be a huge deal, but it wouldn't be an indication of an early-modern level of technology in any ancient human civilization.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Mike Reynolds]

And there is zero evidence of any society that was that technologically advanced. Ten thousand years ago the most advanced human societies were neolithic agrarian societies.

You are out of date in considering pre-historic world trade as Eric von Daniken pseudoscience.

Ancient civilizations may have been more connected than previously thought (newatlas.com)

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are out of date in considering pre-historic world trade as Eric von Daniken pseudoscience.

Ancient civilizations may have been more connected than previously thought (newatlas.com)

I'm not seeing anything in that article that is at odds with what I've said. Neolithic agrarian societies can still have economy and trade. Economically interdependent agrarian societies are still agrarian societies.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Mike Reynolds]

People were traveling around the globe, spreading out from Africa beginning about 70,000 years ago, they took advantage of land bridges which existed during the last ice age, such as the Bering land bridge which connected eastern Siberia with Alaska, they used primitive water vessels to traverse short distances across the sea to populate island chains in Australasia. This isn't shocking.

Multiple genetic studies over the last 6 years prove an ancient genetic connection between indigenous Amazonians and indigenous Australians.

Deep genetic affinity between coastal Pacific and Amazonian natives evidenced by Australasian ancestry | PNAS
A DNA Search for the First Americans Links Amazon Groups to Indigenous Australians | Science | Smithsonian Magazine
Indigenous peoples in the Amazon and Australia share some ancestry | New Scientist

 

[ViaCrucis]

Multiple genetic studies over the last 6 years prove an ancient genetic connection between indigenous Amazonians and indigenous Australians.

Deep genetic affinity between coastal Pacific and Amazonian natives evidenced by Australasian ancestry | PNAS
A DNA Search for the First Americans Links Amazon Groups to Indigenous Australians | Science | Smithsonian Magazine
Indigenous peoples in the Amazon and Australia share some ancestry | New Scientist

Which is very fascinating.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Andrewn]

After the eruption of the supervolcano Mt. Toba that wiped out most homo sapiens creating a "genetic bottleneck" of 3k to 10k people 75k years ago a more advanced form of homo sapien quickly navigated around the globe as Austral-Melanesians reached South America. The time period is disputed, going back as much as 40k years or further.

Do you think this is the Adamic creation?

Why are the 10K year old embossed images at Gobelki Tepe so much more advanced than the common rough-hewn standing stones so common 6,000 years ago? Stonehenge is artistic garbage compare to the far older Gobelki Tepe. Why are the pyramids of Giza on a giant stone platform that is clearly much older?

It is interesting that that site is close to the presumed Garden of Eden and to northern Syria where, "since approximately 10,000 BCE it was one of the centers of Neolithic culture (PPNA) where agriculture and cattle breeding appeared for the first time in the world. The Neolithic period (PPNB) is represented by rectangular houses of the Mureybet culture."

 

[Mike Reynolds]

Which is very fascinating.

It's proof of prehistoric world navigation and that the apparent prehistoric trading routes are real.

The Australians got there by boat at least 30k years earlier than the mongoloids because petroglyphs show them hunting giant tortoises which went extinct 40k years ago.

 

[Mike Reynolds]

Do you think this is the Adamic creation?

No, because geneticists find by far the most genetic diversity in East Africa. And in Genesis 2:8 "God planted a garden eastward, in Eden" east of what? Africa, it sounds like to me.

Before 10K years ago there was a land bridge over the Arabian Sea and an extension of the Fertile Cresent into a huge river delta basin in an exposed Persian Gulf. There was clearly an agrarian civilization there because once the flooding settled down 7.5K years ago that's where known Summerian culture kicks off out of nowhere on the shores of the Persian Gulf. They have many myths about the flooding of their homeland and the word edin in Summerian means coastal plains which is where the Akkadian and Aramaic words for Eden come from.

It is interesting that that site is close to the presumed Garden of Eden and to northern Syria where, "since approximately 10,000 BCE it was one of the centers of Neolithic culture (PPNA) where agriculture and cattle breeding appeared for the first time in the world. The Neolithic period (PPNB) is represented by rectangular houses of the Mureybet culture."

The problem with that site is that there are two other rivers mentioned besides the Tigris and Euphrates in Genesis 2:10-14. The one thing known for certain is that the Garden of Eden is now desolate in some fashion. There are 2 references to the Garden of Eden as desolate in Ezekiel 36:35 and Joel 2:3. And there are 3 references to the trees of Eden going down to Sheol in Ezekiel 31:16-18.

So I think it refers to the vast river delta extension of the Fertile Cresent that was submerged between 10k and 7.5k years ago. It would have been the most fertile place on the planet for 110k years over the last ice age. If humans got to Australia 60K years ago they surely found this fertile river delta not far to the east well before that.

 

[Mike Reynolds]

It is interesting that that site is close to the presumed Garden of Eden and to northern Syria where, "since approximately 10,000 BCE it was one of the centers of Neolithic culture (PPNA) where agriculture and cattle breeding appeared for the first time in the world. The Neolithic period (PPNB) is represented by rectangular houses of the Mureybet culture."

On a different archeological note, I think the Sons of God (Genesis 6) were Neanderthals. They weren't giants in size but in strength with 4 to 6 times the upper body strength of us. And they had giant eyes 3 times our size with a huge expansion of the occipital lob which processes visual data so that had what was called a "cranial bun" an expansion of the back of the skull to accommodate 200cc more brain tissue. They were super strong very incestuous evil geniuses.

They developed much more advanced flint napping techniques and 200K+ years ago the 1st industrial process creating birch bark tar which hardens like rock but has to be heated in huge quantities free from oxygen to 800 C for 10 hours to make enough for a few dozen spears. Their weapons were so superior they evolved to be 25% stronger in their right arm.

But in converting to nocturnal carnivores who ate 99% meat they had little use for the women so they were incredibly incestuous with average parents being half-siblings, uncle and niece, grandfather and granddaughter, and double first cousins.

So they were super strong evil geniuses but were very hick and reclusive in small bands of only a dozen individuals with a culture of indiscriminate sex with virtually any female in the group they wanted. But they found human females much more attractive than their own and their species was diluted and subsumed by their own lust. Along the way, some "were the heroes of old, men of renown." Genesis 6:4

It unleashed the evil of Neanderthals on the known world. Long after they were seemingly gone they still had a heavy genetic influence on humans and probably on their ancient lore and social norms. Thus the need for the Flood.

 

[Mike Reynolds]

It is interesting that that site is close to the presumed Garden of Eden and to northern Syria where, "since approximately 10,000 BCE it was one of the centers of Neolithic culture (PPNA) where agriculture and cattle breeding appeared for the first time in the world. The Neolithic period (PPNB) is represented by rectangular houses of the Mureybet culture."

On a more mysterious note, populations in India or that passed thru India have Denisovan DNA. We only have molars and a pinky bone, so we have no idea what they looked like, but they made higher quality stone axes than humans could and unlike Neanderthals they readily traded their axes which are found widely distributed by ancient human trading networks.

Trading networks were a clear distinction between humans vs Neanderthals and Denisovans who were homebodies as well as Denisovans being as incestuous as Neanderthals. They probably traded axes for female slaves.

But once the evil and strength of Neanderthals and Denisovans were mixed with the wanderlust of humans it unleashed an age of forgotten warfare.

 

[Andrewn]

There was clearly an agrarian civilization there because once the flooding settled down 7.5K years ago that's where known Summerian culture kicks off out of nowhere on the shores of the Persian Gulf.

It seems that the Göbekli Tepe / Mureybet culture of southern Turkey / northern Syria preceeded the Sumerian culture of southern Iraq.

After the eruption of the supervolcano Mt. Toba that wiped out most homo sapiens creating a "genetic bottleneck" of 3k to 10k people 75k years ago a more advanced form of homo sapien quickly navigated around the globe as Austral-Melanesians reached South America. The time period is disputed, going back as much as 40k years or further.

Beside navigation, between 75,000 and 40,000 years ago an unprecedented cultural explosion began to manifest itself in human communities. This resulted in art work, sophisticated jewelry, advanced stone tool technology, evidence of complex ritual systems and social structures, fishing and boat-building, the manufacture of projectile javelins for hunting, and other trappings of a relatively sophisticated material culture. The conclusion was clear: language must have emerged some 50,000 years ago.

I think the Sons of God (Genesis 6) were Neanderthals.

Why would Neanderthals be considered "sons of God?" It is possible that the evil "daughters of men" of Gen 6 are Neanderthals, Denisovans, and other less sophisticated humans whereas the "sons of God" are the relatively more advanced humans described above.

But once the evil and strength of Neanderthals and Denisovans were mixed with the wanderlust of humans it unleashed an age of forgotten warfare.

It's possible.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's proof of prehistoric world navigation and that the apparent prehistoric trading routes are real.

The Australians got there by boat at least 30k years earlier than the mongoloids because petroglyphs show them hunting giant tortoises which went extinct 40k years ago.

It's possible evidence that early human migrations may be more complicated than we previously thought. That's all it would mean.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Mike Reynolds]

It seems that the Göbekli Tepe / Mureybet culture of southern Turkey / northern Syria proceeded the Sumerian culture of southern Iraq.

That's because their original settlements didn't get hammered by the 200ft sea level rise between 10K and 7.5K years ago. Summer was clearly an older civilization whose homeland was flooded because fully developed agriculture appears out nowhere at 7.5K years ago on the shores of the Persian Gulf when the rising sea levels stabilized. And their legends talk about their homeland being flooded. So the evidence of older settlements is all submerged in the Persian Gulf.

There are no signs of grains or domesticated animals at Gobekli Tepe, just locally hunted game. But as to Turkey, if it was so much more advanced than Summer then why didn't civilization develop there before Summer?

Beside navigation, between 75,000 and 40,000 years ago an unprecedented cultural explosion began to manifest itself in human communities. This resulted in art work, sophisticated jewelry, advanced stone tool technology, evidence of complex ritual systems and social structures, fishing and boat-building, the manufacture of projectile javelins for hunting, and other trappings of a relatively sophisticated material culture. The conclusion was clear: language must have emerged some 50,000 years ago.

Neandertals and Denisovans had the FOXP2 gene now unique to humans that mediates speech, so archeologists assume language began far earlier than 50K years. MRI scans of flint nappers watching flint napping videos lights up Broca's Area which controls speech. Earlier weapons more dimly lit up the periphery of Broca's Area while the most advanced techniques light up the whole of Broca's Area brilliantly. So many archeologists think the development of language is a by-product of developing more advanced hunting technology.

There is evidence on Hobbit speech. While the most recent fossil remains on Flores Island are 17k years old, in her book the lead scientist has a large chapter on local legends about the Hobbits that they say were alive until 200 years ago. They are extremely fresh and vivid legends, like describing them as pot-bellied. You'd expect the intestines to have to grow substantially in size to eat an all raw diet, yet the islanders couldn't have known that.

But as to speech, despite how their brain had shrunk back to chimp size (only a 50% reduction from the Homo Erectus they devolved from) they could uncomprehendingly repeat words spoken to them. So there is evidence that clear enunciation is at least a million years old.

Why would Neanderthals be considered "sons of God?" It is possible that the evil "daughters of men" of Gen 6 are Neanderthals, Denisovans, and other less sophisticated humans whereas the "sons of God" are the more advanced humans described above.

In the Book of Enoch the sons of God are fallen angels. It may be pseudepigrapha but 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 quote from it. It is also suggested by many that Peter's reference to women needing to wear head coverings in church because of angels in 1 Corinthians 11:10 is also a reference to Enoch and the fallen angels' desire for human women. No one interprets it the other way around, it is very unorthodox to assume the daughters of men were not humans.

 

[Andrewn]

In the Book of Enoch the sons of God are fallen angels. It may be pseudepigrapha but 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 quote from it. It is also suggested by many that Peter's reference to women needing to wear head coverings in church because of angels in 1 Corinthians 11:10 is also a reference to Enoch and the fallen angels' desire for human women. No one interprets it the other way around, it is very unorthodox to assume the daughters of men were not humans.

In the past, I discussed Enoch's theory ad nauseam in these Forums. It is beneath what can be considered an intelligent discussion. I will refrain from discussing it again.

Neandertals and Denisovans had the FOXP2 gene now unique to humans that mediates speech, so archeologists assume language began far earlier than 50K years.

"FOXP2 is found in many vertebrates, where it plays an important role in mimicry in birds (such as birdsong) and echolocation in bats. FOXP2 is also required for the proper development of speech and language in humans. In humans, mutations in FOXP2 cause the severe speech and language disorder developmental verbal dyspraxia. Studies of the gene in mice and songbirds indicate that it is necessary for vocal imitation and the related motor learning. Outside the brain, FOXP2 has also been implicated in development of other tissues such as the lung and digestive system."

But as to speech, despite how their brain had shrunk back to chimp size (only a 50% reduction from the Homo Erectus they devolved from) they could uncomprehendingly repeat words spoken to them. So there is evidence that clear enunciation is at least a million years old.

And "molecular studies suggest that parrots evolved approximately 59 million years ago."

 

[Mike Reynolds]

In the past, I discussed Enoch's theory ad nauseam in these Forums. It is beneath what can be considered an intelligent discussion. I will refrain from discussing it again.

I could use a quick synopsis of relevant points. I think it's only interesting for its historical context. How do you respond to this: "A short section of 1 Enoch (1:9) is cited in the New Testament Epistle of Jude, Jude 1:14–15". Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

"FOXP2 is found in many vertebrates, where it plays an important role in mimicry in birds (such as birdsong) and echolocation in bats. FOXP2 is also required for the proper development of speech and language in humans. In humans, mutations in FOXP2 cause the severe speech and language disorder developmental verbal dyspraxia. Studies of the gene in mice and songbirds indicate that it is necessary for vocal imitation and the related motor learning. Outside the brain, FOXP2 has also been implicated in development of other tissues such as the lung and digestive system."

I was unaware of FOXP2 in birds. That makes sense. But they did not devolve from more intelligent animals. There are no selection pressures for apes or primitive hominids to develop it independently.

It was clearly a holdover in Hobbits who were described as frequently murmuring softly in each other's ears. Most likely they were not saying anything, just using the holdovers of speech as a social bonding tool.

Where do you get the 50K figure for the development of language, do you have a reference? That is a provocatively recent estimate.

 

[Andrewn]

Where do you get the 50K figure for the development of language, do you have a reference? That is a provocatively recent estimate.

Development of language is usually considered with other features of "behavioral modernity." These are some articles describing their evolution:

The Transition to Modern Behavior | Learn Science at Scitable

When did we become fully human? What fossils and DNA tell us about the evolution of modern intelligence

Refuting a Myth About Human Origins

Behavioral modernity - Wikipedia

Timeline of the human condition | Milestones in evolution and history

An Evolutionary Timeline of Homo Sapiens | Science | Smithsonian Magazine

The point I tried to make is that behavioral modernity and language development took place around the same time as the worldwide human migration that you described.

As far as Genesis is concerned, it is clear to me that the creation of Adam in Gen 2 is different from the creation of the world (including huminins) in Gen 1. But at some stage, these 2 groups had to completely mix together, genetically.

 

[Mike Reynolds]

Development of language is usually considered with other features of "behavioral modernity." These are some articles describing their evolution:

The Transition to Modern Behavior | Learn Science at Scitable

When did we become fully human? What fossils and DNA tell us about the evolution of modern intelligence

Refuting a Myth About Human Origins

Behavioral modernity - Wikipedia

Timeline of the human condition | Milestones in evolution and history

An Evolutionary Timeline of Homo Sapiens | Science | Smithsonian Magazine

I see few references to language as I skimmed.

The point I tried to make is that behavioral modernity and language development took place around the same time as the worldwide human migration that you described.

Now you're talkin'. I think it's specifically the development of dead reckoning in language that precipitated homo sapien wanderlust. To this day a quarter of all languages confer dead reckoning, the ability to always know exactly where N S E & W are, predominantly in the Pacific islands.

In Papa Negrini one of their languages has 96 directions, 8 by 12, which encompasses both of the most common directional divisions in human numerical systems. To say hello you have to say which of the 96 directions you are going in, which is an almost superhuman challenge.

A young graduate student who had studied the language so intensively as to speak reasonably well got no respect because she couldn't even say hello. After 2 weeks of overwhelming frustration from not being able to get past hello, she suddenly developed a video game-like compass in her mind where she could visually see her direction extremely precisely. Suddenly she could say hello and was immediately treated with much greater respect.

As soon as she was able to speak to gathered female elders she describes her new handy mental videogame-like radar window in her mind and asks if they know what she is talking about. They reply: "Doesn't everyone have this?"

As far as Genesis is concerned, it is clear to me that the creation of Adam in Gen 2 is different from the creation of the world (including hominins) in Gen 1. But at some stage, these 2 groups had to completely mix together, genetically.

I agree totally that adam (which is not a proper noun in Hebrew and actually means mankind or man in the generalized term) could easily refer to multiple similar events. For example, linguistically the oldest languages are in the farthest Southern Africa, despite the greatest genetic diversity being in East Africa.

You can tell how old a language is by the number of syllable consents it has. Languages shift and lose consonants, but they never gain new consonants.

There are 5 South African languages that are a superset of all consonant combinations and uniquely containing the "click consent" where you suck in hard and abruptly let your tongue free creating a quick "shnuk" sucking in sound. One of these 5 languages actually uses it as a consonant in words. The most well-known example is "g!nu" where the '!' represents the click consonant.

So it's assumed that there were survivors in the genetic bottleneck from both East Africa and Southern Africa because East Africa may have the most genetic diversity in the world but South Africa has the most linguistic diversity in the world.

 

[Andrewn]

So it's assumed that there were survivors in the genetic bottleneck from both East Africa and Southern Africa because East Africa may have the most genetic diversity in the world but South Africa has the most linguistic diversity in the world.

You're right that the migration from East Africa does not correspond with Eden, which is described as being in the Middle East.

I believe the Flood corresponds to Socrates' account of the destruction of all advanced civilizations which exactly matches the date 11.5k years ago of the Younger-Dryas mass extinction. But besides dogs, we didn't domesticate livestock animals or cats until after the Younger-Dryas mass extinction. So the story of Cain and Able must refer to a time *after* the Flood.

Why does the story of Cain and Able have to be *after* the Flood?