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Time is an illusion

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by eleos1954, Nov 24, 2021.

  1. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Well-Known Member

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    Which leads to the obvious question...how do you know that the other three dimensions aren't illusions as well?

    How many dimensions does light experience?
     
  2. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    Without observations, without the discovery of a wormhole allowing a direct observation into another time within a stateless universe, that time is a dimension remains a baseless assertion.

    That the speed at which information may be propagated has an upper limit, implies that change can only happen so fast, producing "time dilation", similar to a doppler effect relative to the motion of some body, which can affect the perceived passage of time relative to the perspective of an observer, implying that the classical physics descriptive of change and the passage of time can be transformed, explains the difference between the recorded time of the formerly synchronized watch of an astronaut who traveled closer to the speed of light and the watch of an observer on earth.

    That the astronaut simply took a shortcut through a traversible dimension, arriving at a location that has two distinct, yet correct time coordinates, is irrational on every front.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  3. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    you can't measure an expanding universe ... time is not physical ... can you hold it in your hand?

    You can call time the fourth dimension if you want .... but you can't measure the cosmos by it because the cosmos is continuously expanding.

    Time and space are non-matter existences. They don't exist in physical state. Therefore, unlike matter existence, they don't have physical properties.
     
  4. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Well-Known Member

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    And this too may be an illusion.

    If we ask how fast time passes, it's always one second per second for every observer. Therefore it must be a constant, because absolutely everybody is experiencing the exact same thing. Yet we know that the passage of time is fungible, at least from the perspective of other observers...just not to themselves. So is the passage of time a constant or isn't it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  5. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Let’s see what others say:

    Einstein's general theory of relativity established time as a physical thing: it is part of space-time, the gravitational field produced by massive objects. The presence of mass warps space-time, with the result that time passes more slowly close to a massive body such as Earth.Apr 18, 2018

    Why now doesn’t exist, and other strange facts about time | New Scientist
     
  6. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Einstein disagreed with you:

    Einstein's general theory of relativity established time as a physical thing: it is part of space-time, the gravitational field produced by massive objects. The presence of mass warps space-time, with the result that time passes more slowly close to a massive body such as Earth.Apr 18, 2018
    upload_2021-11-27_12-47-3.png
    Why now doesn’t exist, and other strange facts about time | New Scientist
     
  7. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    To paraphrase Descartes: it exists, therefore it is.

    If you think reality is an illusion, beat your head against a wall, and you will know it’s not very quickly.
     
  8. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Well-Known Member

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    Being an epistemological solipsist, I would question both of the above assertions.
     
  9. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    It doesn't. Einstein's relativity helps to explain why time is experienced differently, but it does not require that an object "slip out" of the present state (to cease to exist relatively) of a stateful universe.

    A stateful universe upholds Hawking's chronology protection conjecture. It explains why no time travellers showed for MIT's time traveller party, which I believe is still being advertised and will be indefinitely.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  10. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Time travel would take an unbelievable amount of energy, and any time traveler would have to take all the necessary equipment and power source with them, to be able to return.

    Just as it would take a fantastic amount of energy to warp the hundreds of light years of space in front of a spaceship to travel to distant star systems with a warp drive, per the Star Trek sci/fi type scenario.

    The fact is that energy, matter, time, and space are all essentially the same, according to physics.
     
  11. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    On the subject of closed time-like curves, worked out by Godel (starting at 0:50):



    Brilliance, unfortunately doesn't always reflect correctness, though I give Godel props obviously for his work elsewhere and for disproving his own hypothesis.
     
  12. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    The facts can be represented using any paradigm we can cook up, but the assumption that the universe is stateless is unproven. A stateful universe has not been disproven.
     
  13. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Hawking, the same “genius” who wrote that because gravity exists, the universe was able to create itself?
     
  14. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    Is correctness a right merited by genius, theism or some other virtue?

    If only, then our favorites would truly be absolute arbiters, but this is not how either science or reality works.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  15. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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  16. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Well-Known Member

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    At the risk of displaying my ignorance again, could you please give me a quick explanation of what you mean by "stateful".
     
  17. sjastro

    sjastro Newbie

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    Whether space-time and time are real or not is a debate physicists have been having for over a century but I suspect the pendulum are swung strongly towards both concepts being real.
    For me there is no doubt both are very real.

    The evidence comes from quantum mechanics supported by relativity.
    A common misconception is the incompatibility of quantum mechanics with relativity; this is true with the scale dependent theory of general relativity but not so with special relativity.

    The Schrodinger equation is based on non relativistic quantum mechanics, the Klein Gordon equation is the relativistic version of the Schrodinger equation incorporating space-time into the equation.

    [​IMG]

    The Klein Gordon equation was originally a nightmare for physicists; it predicted negative probabilities and negative energies.
    The latter provided a clue to antimatter where the energy levels are below a ground level through an earlier attempt of combining special relativity and quantum mechanics through the Dirac equation.

    The negative probabilities problem was solved by considering ψ as being a field in the Klein Gordon equation whereas in the Schrodinger equation it is a wavefunction.
    The field is an operator which can create and destroy particles.
    From this arose quantum field theories where a vacuum is space-time in the lowest energy level and with it came a prediction space-time can exert pressure which was confirmed by the Casimir effect.
    It’s very difficult to argue about space-time being a human construct when it can exert pressure.

    The issue with time can be dealt with non relativistic quantum mechanics.
    The Heisenberg uncertainty principle states;

    ΔxΔp ≥ h/4π

    h is Planck’s constant, Δx and Δp are the uncertainty in the measurements when the position and momentum mathematical operators X and P applied to the eigenvector |ψ> giving the eigenvalues x and p which are the measurements or observables according to the equations X|ψ> = x|ψ> and P|ψ> = p|ψ> respectively.

    The Heisenberg uncertainty principle can be expressed differently using energy and time.

    ΔEΔt ≥ h/4π

    Here E is the eigenvalue of the Hamiltonian operator H where H|ψ = E|ψ>.
    There is a problem with t as there no mathematical operator T such that T|ψ> = t|ψ>.
    t is not an uncertainty in the measurement but a time interval which depends on a physical process such as the energy level of an excited state depends on how long it is in that state.
    This connection between energy and time makes it difficult to conclude time is simply a human construction.
     
  18. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    In the simplest sense statefulness pertains to a thing that undergoes, experiences or can be changed.

    In the stateful interpretation of the physical universe, the difference between now and now + 30 minutes, is found in differences of state, form, configuration, etc. If there is no change of state, there can be no perceptible progression of the passage of time. Progression or reversion through time is achieved only in changes of state.

    In the stateless interpretation of the physical universe, the universe cannot be changed. The future exists now, so in some strange mathematical sense, it might be possible that two points along the direction of time might be bridged, though from our perspective, if any object were to cross such a bridge, it would cease to exist relatively, and would "slip out" of the present perceptible state of the universe, even if state transition is but a mere illusion.

    This is not what Einstein's relativity requires. Though, with some additions it is a hypothetical possibility known as an Einstein-Rosen Bridge.

    It's the fundamental assumptions that may be erroneous and presentism, the stateful interpretation of the physical universe, has never been disproved.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  19. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    For the life of me I don't know why you put so much effort into internet posts, but I for one am not going to try to deconstruct what you're trying to say.

    Math is simply an axiomatic system. Axiomatic systems are grounded on axioms, postulates, and assumptions. Some of those assumptions are philosophical, and accidental.

    The bottom line is, it doesn't matter what the math, proceeding from our assumptions says; for time travel to be possible, past or future must first exist so that it can be traveled to. Time dilation does not prove that this is the case because anything that undergoes time dilation doesn't fall out of the state of the present universe. These objects, observers or what have you, remain with us regardless of any perceptible difference in the passage of time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  20. sjastro

    sjastro Newbie

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    Your response indicates this since it seems to bear no relevance to anything I said.

    There is a flaw in this argument; my post was not about pure mathematics but an example of applied mathematics in physics.
    By definition applied mathematics is nowhere near as rigorous as pure mathematics as 'proof' is not the objective.
    Approximate solutions to the Navier Stokes equations are used extensively in physics ranging from climate models to how water flows in a pipe but exact solutions is one of the great unsolved problems in pure mathematics with a one million dollar reward to any mathematician who solves it.

    Did I mention anywhere in my post about time travel or time dilation?
     
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