Time for a Lewis update!

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Didaskomenos

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I periodically present quotes from the theologian C.S. Lewis, partly because he is championed by evangelicals and partly because he said things much better and thought things through so much better than I. Here, for your reading pleasure, is a passage from Reflections on the Psalms.

C. S. Lewis said:
I have been suspected of being what is called a Fundamentalist. That is because I never regard any narrative as unhistorical simply on the ground that it includes the miraculous. Some people find the miraculous so hard to believe that they cannot imagine any reason for my acceptance of it other than a prior belief that every sentence of the Old Testament has historical or scientific truth. But this I do not hold, any more than St. Jerome did when he said that Moses described Creation "after the manner of a popular poet" (as we should say, mythically) or than Calvin did when he doubted whether the story of Job were history or fiction. The real reason why I can accept as historical a story in which a miracle occurs is that I have never found any philosophical grounds for the universal negative proposition that miracles do not happen. I have to decide on quite other grounds (if I decide at all) whether a given narrative is historical or not. The Book of Job appears to me unhistorical because it begins about a man quite unconnected with all history or even legend, with no genealogy, living in a country of which the Bible elsewhere has hardly anything to say; because, in fact, the author quite obviously writes as a story-teller not as a chronicler.

I have therefore no difficulty in accepting, say, the view of those scholars who tell us that the account of Creation in Genesis is derived from earlier Semitic stories which were Pagan and mythical. We must of course be quite clear what "derived from" means. Stories do not reproduce their species like mice. They are told by men. Each re-teller either repeats exactly what his predecessor had told him or else changes it. He may change it unknowingly or deliberately. If he changes it deliberately, his invention, his sense of form, his ethics, his ideas of what is fit, or edifying, or merely interesting, all come in. If unknowingly, then his unconscious (which is so largely responsible for our forgettings) has been at work. Thus at every step in what is called--a little misleadingly--the "evolution" of a story, a man, all he is and all his attitudes, are involved. An no good work is done anywhere without aid from the Father of Lights. When a series of such retellings turns a creation story which at first had almost no religious or metaphysical significance into a story which achieves the idea of true Creation and of a transcendent Creator (as Genesis does), then nothing will make me believe that some of the re-tellers, or some one of them, has not been guided by God.

Thus something originally merely natural--the kind of myth that is found amongst most nations--will have been raised by God above itself, qualified by Him and compelled by Him to serve purposes which of itself would not have served. Generalising this, I take it that the whole Old Testament consists of the same sort of material as any other literature--chronicle (some of it obviously pretty accurate), poems, moral and political diatribes, romances, and what not; but all taken into the service of Gods word. Not all, I suppose, in the same way. There are prophets who write with the clearest awareness that Divine compulsion is upon them. There are chroniclers whose intention may have been merely to record. There are poets like those in the Song of Songs who probably never dreamed of any but a secular and natural purpose in what they composed. There is (and it is not less important) the work first of the Jewish and then of the Christian Church in preserving and canonising just these books. There is the work of redactors and editors in modifying them. On all of these I suppose a Divine pressure; of which not by any means all need have been conscious.

The human qualities of the raw materials show through. Naivet, error, contradiction, even (as in the cursing Psalms) wickedness are not removed. The total result is not "the Word of God" in the sense that every passage, in itself, gives impeccable science or history. It carries the Word of God; and we (under grace, with attention to tradition and to interpreters wiser than ourselves, and with the use of such intelligence and learning as we may have) receive that word from it not by using it as an encyclopedia or an encyclical but by steeping ourselves in its tone or temper and so learning its overall message.

To a human mind this working-up (in a sense imperfectly), this sublimation (incomplete) of human material, seems, not doubt, an untidy and leaky vehicle. We might have expected, we may think we should have preferred, an unrefracted light giving us ultimate truth in systematic form--something we could have tabulated and memorised and relied on like the multiplication table. One can respect, and at moments envy, both the Fundamentalists view of the Bible and the Roman Catholics view of the Church. But there is one argument which we should beware of using for either position: God must have done what is best, this is best, therefore God has done this. For we are mortals and do not know what is best for us, and it is dangerous to prescribe what God must have done--especially when we cannot, for the life of us, see that He has after all done it.

We may observe that the teaching of Our Lord Himself, in which there is no imperfection, is not given us in that cut-and-dried, fool-proof, systematic fashion we might have expected or desired. He wrote no book. We have only reported sayings, most of them uttered in answer to questions, shaped in some degree by their context. And when we have collected them all we cannot reduce them to a system. He preaches but He does not lecture. He uses paradox, proverb, exaggeration, parable, irony; even (I mean no irreverence) the "wise-crack". He utters maxims which, like popular proverbs, if rigorously taken, may seem to contradict one another. His teaching therefore cannot be grasped by the intellect alone, cannot be "got up" as if it were a "subject". If we try to do that with it, we shall find Him the most elusive of teachers. He hardly ever gave a straight answer to a straight question. He will not be, in the way we want, "pinned down". The attempt is (again, I mean no irreverence) like trying to bottle a sunbeam.
 

TwinCrier

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Vance said:
Odd how no YEC's responded to our Mr. Lewis' idea.
Respond to what. He clearly admits right off he's not a fundamentalist Christian. All I know about this man is he wrote some children's books with witchcraft and some novels. I think I read that he said he was visited by ghosts too.
 
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Vance

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TwinCrier said:
Respond to what. He clearly admits right off he's not a fundamentalist Christian. All I know about this man is he wrote some children's books with witchcraft and some novels. I think I read that he said he was visited by ghosts too.

But what is your response to what he is saying here? Which points do you not agree with, and why?

And, he says he is "suspected" of being a fundamentalist.
 
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California Tim

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C.S. Lewis said:
His teaching therefore cannot be grasped by the intellect alone, cannot be "got up" as if it were a "subject". If we try to do that with it, we shall find Him the most elusive of teachers. He hardly ever gave a straight answer to a straight question. He will not be, in the way we want, "pinned down". The attempt is (again, I mean no irreverence) like trying to bottle a sunbeam.
I agree with this completely. In fact it is why the TE argument is suspect, being based almost entirely on intellect and treated as a "subject" of (or more precisely "subject to") science. So while I agree with some of what CS Lewis says and disagree with other things, on this issue we happen to agree. The only objections I've heard to YEC so far have been intellectual and extra-Biblical - that being it doesn't seem to add up to the current prevailing interpretation of the evidence.
 
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Vance

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California Tim said:
I agree with this completely. In fact it is why the TE argument is suspect, being based almost entirely on intellect and treated as a "subject" of (or more precisely "subject to") science. So while I agree with some of what CS Lewis says and disagree with other things, on this issue we happen to agree. The only objections I've heard to YEC so far have been intellectual and extra-Biblical - that being it doesn't seem to add up to the current prevailing interpretation of the evidence.

Tim, you keep ignoring all of my arguments that are NOT extra-biblical, and not at all based on interpretation of scientific evidence. I know that this does not fit your model of the bases for TE beliefs, but it is not proper to use words like "only" or even "almost entirely".

But you DON'T really agree with him even on the point you cite, because you can see that from what he says earlier what he really MEANS by that statement. He STILL will completely accept extra-biblical information to assist in proper exegesis, and will USE the evidence to help understand things, he just won't let it be the sole factor, the way minimalists or strict naturalists do.

And TE's agree with that entirely. We are NOT strict naturalists or minimalists, no matter how much YEC's want to paint us as such to ease their arguments along. We, just as Lewis does, just as St. Augustine does, and most of the great theologians of Christian history do, use our minds and information gathered from textual analysis, source analysis, history and culture, theological considerations, etc, and yes, even the current state of knowledge about the natural world ALL TOGETHER to come to a proper exegesis.
 
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shernren

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Personally, I admire CS Lewis. But he is not the Word of God, the Bible is; and there have been other slip-ups before, most notably the salvation of Emeth in The Final Battle. I don't think I will take non-literalness seriously, not now.

And can someone please label me? XD What are fundamentalists? And do they play loud music in church? wakaka.
 
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notto

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California Tim said:
The only objections I've heard to YEC so far have been intellectual and extra-Biblical - that being it doesn't seem to add up to the current prevailing interpretation of the evidence.

I would add to that that the explainations they give for physical evidence often fail to actually explain the evidence that is there regardless of how it is interpreted by current prevailing mainstream science..

The explanation that a YEC scientists would give for the formation of the Grand Canyon does not match the physical evidence we find there. This isn't a matter of current interpretation of the evidence. Their notions often don't address the evidence. Their 'interpretation' is to deny or ignore vast amounts and only include what they can try to explain while ignoring the rest.

Regardless of current interpretation by mainstream science, their explanations fail because of their own internal lack of detail and inconsistencies.

For example, the flood was both violent and gentle, deep and shallow, sustaining completely or periodically fluctuating to uncover land intermediate during the flood. This is not a consistent model and show the ad-hoc nature of their ideas. When explaining one piece of evidence, the flood has one set of characteristics. When that model fails to explain another piece of evidence, they will use a flood with completely different (and contradictory) characteristics to explain it.
 
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seebs

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TwinCrier said:
Respond to what. He clearly admits right off he's not a fundamentalist Christian. All I know about this man is he wrote some children's books with witchcraft and some novels. I think I read that he said he was visited by ghosts too.

Then you're missing one of the greatest theologians of the 20th century.
 
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California Tim

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notto said:
The explanation that a YEC scientists would give for the formation of the Grand Canyon does not match the physical evidence we find there. This isn't a matter of current interpretation of the evidence. Their notions often don't address the evidence. Their 'interpretation' is to deny or ignore vast amounts and only include what they can try to explain while ignoring the rest.
Like this evidence?

EVIDENCE FOR DEEP WATER DEPOSITION OF THE TAPEATS SANDSTONE, GRAND CANYON, ARIZONA, U.S.A.

Chadwick, A. and Kennedy, E.

The Tapeats Sandstone forms the basal Cambrian deposit of the Tonto Platform and generally has been interpreted as a shallow marine deposit. In the Grand Canyon, the sandstone was deposited on a low relief Precambrian surface broken by scattered remnant cliffs of Shinumo Quartzite and isolated granitic hills. Paleoslope measurements, sedimentological features and trace element distributions have been documented and analyzed from 91 Mile Canyon and Red Canyon in the Grand Canyon. Debris flows containing Shinumo clasts with a Tapeats sand matrix were catastrophically eroded and transported along the Precambrian surface topography from the cliff-faces basinward. These submarine flows were deposited on a surface with over 140m of vertical relief. Sedimentary structures and contacts indicate that even the shallowest material was deposited in excess of 200m below storm wave base. Th/U ratios from the breccia matrix and primary glauconite in the Tapeats Sandstones at both localities indicate sediment deposition in a reducing/low oxygen environment. Such conditions are highly unlikely in a high-energy, near shore facies. A reevaluation of sedimentary structures used to identify the Tapeats Sandstone as a shallow water marine facies reveals these features to be consistent with the deep water model. To explain the features documented in this research, we propose that the Tapeats Sandstone was deposited as a deep-water, submarine fan complex.*

*The model was revised for the presentation of the paper at the IAS Congress in Alicante: We proposed that the Tapeats Sandstone was deposited when a continental shelf collapsed, generating high energy movement of sediments down slope, blanketing the Precambrian surface.

Published in: 15th International Sedimentological Congress, Alicante, p. 247-248, 1998. Source
 
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