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Tim LaHaye´s New Book

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Defender of the Faith 777, Jul 3, 2002.

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  1. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

    It's possible to know at what time a thief is coming: "Know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready" (Matthew 24:43-44).

    Knowing when Jesus will come like a thief will help us believers (Matthew 24:43-44), but it will not help the devil or any of his followers. In his overwhelming power, Jesus will nonetheless "overtake" them like a thief (2 Thessalonians 5:4): "No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house" (Mark 3:27, compare Revelation 20:2).

    Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).

    "And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:40-41). Here Jesus wasn't asking "Could ye not watch with me for the imminent rapture for one hour?" And he wasn't saying "Watch and pray for the imminent rapture that ye enter not into temptation." He was asking "Could ye not stay awake with me for one hour?" And he was saying "Stay awake and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."

    Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

    Compare: "Be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). I believe this is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise you're saying that as long as we're looking for him he can't possibly come.
     
  2. Kyle

    Kyle Citizen of Heaven in Christ

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    That is a good argument against my use of "if" relating to one verse.

    However, your argument does not hold up against the Bible as a whole.

    For example:

    "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Mat 24:42).

    We can watch and see the birth pangs, but no one knows the day an hour.
    When the 7 years tribulation begins, anyone that knows their Bible will know that the end of the tribulation will occur 7 years from when the date began.

    As I stated, Christ will return at the end of the 7 year tribulation, and we both agree the Bible says this. So, a person that knew their Bible would know the exact day when Christ would return.

    There must be a Rapture, since it will come like a thief, and also no one [not the angels on earth or ANYONE] will EVER know the day Christ returns, until that day occurs.
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Again, compare: "Be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). I believe this is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise you're saying that as long as we're looking for him he can't possibly come.  

    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

    I believe that in Matthew 24:36-37 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Jesus is speaking to the same people in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

    Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

    Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

    Not for us (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).
     
  4. rainbow promise

    rainbow promise New Member

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    Postrib.....
    I came in here to leave a message and this was all I could come up with. you said everything in post #10 that I was going to say. You and I don't agree on some areas, but I have to say AMEN to #10......

    Sandi
     
  5. Kyle

    Kyle Citizen of Heaven in Christ

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    [[I believe this is a warning against our becoming unfaithful...]]

    Am I correct then that your belief here is an opinion and speculation of what the Scripture says?

    Why not take it literally? --No creature that has the ability to know God, but God knows that day when He will pull up Believers in Him to His dwelling place for His saints.

    No monkey. No human. No Believer. No angel.

    No one.

    Therefore, there must be a time on earth where no believer will know when Christ comes back to pull them up to Heaven.

    How could any Believer be watching and know the time, if as the Bible says NO ONE knows when the thief-like snatch out of nowhere is coming?

    It would be impossible for a Believer that knows this promise of God during a 7 year countdown to not know that Christ is coming at the end of the 7 year tribulation.

    The Bible tells us to accept His Word "like children," which means that His message is able to be understood by a child.

    I have found that many people get wrapped up in trying to read into what Scripture says too much, when in reality it is clear, plain, and straightforward. It has been translated into all languages today, and in each language has been written at a level simple enough for a child (at a basic reading level) to understand.

    I will assume you are a True Believer, thus, I also feel compelled to defend against the post-tribulation theory.

    Why?

    If pre-trib is true, then post-trib can mislead others to think that they can wait and be Saved when they see the amazing signs of the Bible predicted.

    Imagine this scenario:

    If pre-trib is false, and I, as a True Believer, discovered this after the anti-christ signed the treaty to begin the 7 year trib, then I will know I was wrong. But, since I am a Believer and know my Bible well, I would recognize my error immediately.

    Thus, there is no harm done since all Believers would go through the tribulation anyways.

    But even then, will the anti-christ be able to delude the majority of the world with so many strong Believers praying in the Word daily remaining on earth?

    Furthermore, I have found that most post-tribbers are not aware of the number of Christians persecuated daily in the world. Or the millions of True Christians fighting for their freedoms, that were horribly tortured in the world under governments attempting to dominate the world with their religioius authority.

    The tribulation is not the only time on earth where True Christians have and will continue to be persecuted, tortured, and murdered for their beliefs. Christ on the cross is an indisputable example for a Believer.

    In summary, I have Hope that we will one day meet in Heaven, and that you are a Believer now. Yet, I would like to respectfully encourage you to continue weigh both sides (as I am as I write now) together in Christ Jesus who is Lord of us all, in that my message to you is one of urgency.

    May we be linked together for One Purpose through Him that is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine at the center of our talks.

    Your friend in Christ,

    Kyle
     
  6. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

    For unbelievers, belief in an imminent pre-trib rapture isn't required to be motivated to repent because they never know when they're going to die (Luke 12:20, 2 Corinthians 6:2).

    For believers, knowing the rapture's timing matters because Jesus said it's possible for those who believe to subsequently "be offended" by tribulation and fall away:

    "The same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended" (Matthew 13:20-21).

    "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew 24:9-12).

    "They, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation [peirasmos] fall away" (Luke 8:13).

    "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try [peirasmos] you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

    I don't believe someone necessarily will fall away because they believe in a pre-trib rapture, or won't fall away because they believe in a post-trib rapture, but true believers -- whether pre or post -- can fall away in tribulation.

    And I believe Jesus told us everything we'd have to face beforehand for a good reason, so that we'd be less likely to be offended and fall away: "Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23). "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6). To be forewarned is to be forearmed: mentally, emotionally, and spiritually (and possibly even physically, if the Lord so leads).

    I believe the pre-trib doctrine may be setting up many in the church for great disappointment and confusion and the falling away from the faith: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith" (1 Timothy 4:1), and this departure from the faith (apostasy) will happen before Jesus comes to rapture us: "We beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [apostasy] first" (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 3).
     
  7. Million Pieces

    Million Pieces SHMILY

    +2,814
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    Married
    Defender, I have to point out something you alluded to way back in post #17. You mention the non-appearance of the Church in chapters 4-18 of revelation. One major thing you must keep in mind is that the events of the Revelation are NOT in chronological order. Chapters 12 to 14 are mostly allegorical insertions into the decription of Heavenly events.

    Also keep in mind that there are portions of events in these End times that are described in the book of Daniel too. You must study these books, Revelation and Daniel, together, I believe, to get a more complete picture of what God intends.

    Without getting into depth here, I got slammed royally the first time I tried this and I really don't care to go through that again, I have heard a wonderful comparison to the events of Christs' return to the various processes of the traditional Jewish marriage covenant. If someone knows what I'm talking about here and has the time, perhaps someone could look it up and post it here. It's an incredibly eye-opening read. It sure puts a lot of events in great perspective.
     
  8. Warrior4Jah

    Warrior4Jah Conservative on a mission

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    *shrugs* I love the books and theres nothing wrong or decieving about them. Its about kids living during the times after the rapture. Its evry simple. The ooks have not said anything false about what will happen. Its all straght from the bible.
     
  9. Million Pieces

    Million Pieces SHMILY

    +2,814
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    I think what's getting lost here is that the original question was about Dr. LaHaye's book The Rapture, NOT the Left Behind series. Yes, the new series book was in stores this month, but Dr. LaHaye also writes Biblical non-fiction.

    What are your opinions on THIS book? Not The Remnant.
     
  10. Kyle

    Kyle Citizen of Heaven in Christ

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    Present tense or future tense to "know," it's pretty clear it says "no one."
    Only God is all knowing-past, present, future, outside the box, etc.

    We can see the fig leaves change color and the contractions of the women ready to deliver the beast, but when he comes to gather the Believers up, it'll be the shock of all time; the theft of all time. "No one" but God has the ability to see it coming.

    This also shows the danger of believing or having an opinion that it will come at any sort of certain time. We are to watch as though it could come at any time.

    Rev 19:11-21, there is no mention of a resurrection. But there is mention in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

    1 Thess 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Mat 13:30-49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

    And, if the resurrection occurs at the 2nd coming, then who will populate the earth for the 1000 year reign? Believers would have been resurrected into Heaven if the post-trib theory fitting all events of Christ's resurrection and return are lumped together as one. Matt. 22:30 says they'll be physical bodies left on earth during this time.

    Here is a clear promise in Rev 3:10: “Since you have my command and endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live upon the earth.” The word “from”, in Greek, is “out of.” Meaning Believers will be taken out of the world and into Heaven, while those remaining will be under trial.
     
  11. Kyle

    Kyle Citizen of Heaven in Christ

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    "The Rapture" reflects the "Left Behind" series concerning the events of the last days. It's a excellent, and gives a superb Biblical study of the big picture in one book...versus having to buy the entire series and wait for the others to come out.

    That's the good news, the whole story is already in the Bible, and it's all Good News for Believers.
     
  12. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

    I believe that in Matthew 24:36-37 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Jesus is speaking to the same people in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

    Note again that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    Note again the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

    Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

    Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

    Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).

    "And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:40-41). Here Jesus wasn't asking "Could ye not watch with me for the imminent rapture for one hour?" And he wasn't saying "Watch and pray for the imminent rapture that ye enter not into temptation." He was asking "Could ye not stay awake with me for one hour?" And he was saying "Stay awake and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."

    Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

    Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse eight). I believe that Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31, which says all these will occur "after the tribulation." I don't believe the scriptures teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

    Note that no verse promises us a resurrection before the tribulation.

    I believe the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that this is why it says "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5).

    I believe the separation of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:40-43) will be at the white throne judgment after the millennium (Revelation 20:11-15), when I believe the wheat will enter the kingdom of their Father (Revelation 21:2-3), and the tares will enter the fire (Revelation 20:15). Note that only the Antichrist and False Prophet go into the fire at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20).

    I believe all of the following passages speak of the same coming and the same gathering together:

    "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3).

    "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

    "The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

    "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

    "They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52).

    I believe the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture would require that the 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28) be a 3rd coming, that the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) be the 9th from last (Revelation 8:6), and that the 1st resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) be the 2nd, so that it would not really make sense of scripture.

    I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40, Zechariah 14:16) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.

    Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time.

    The 1st century church of Philadelphia could have been kept from the Roman persecution without being physically removed from the world. Compare Revelation 3:10's "tereo ek" with John 17:15: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep [tereo] them from [ek] the evil."
     
  13. Kyle

    Kyle Citizen of Heaven in Christ

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    You make some outstadning arguments. I am not persuaded though, that post-trib is what's going to go down.

    However, you can take credit, for your superb arguments and research in post-trib has caused me to be reminded of something:

    It is not good to be absolutely dogmatic one way or the other concerning post vs pre-trib. I have been guilty of getting overally pumped up on The Left Behind Books. It has caused me to become to sided on the pre-trib side, and giving less consideration to the post-trib side.

    My mistake, thank you for helping me come to Christ for that.

    I will stand by that no one will ever be able to predict the return of Christ. Rather a pre-trib Rapture exists or not, which I still believe will occur but am not 100% on it and more like 98%, it should not interfere with witnessing to others the message of Christ. Last week I was probably 99.9999999%, and too close to 100%.

    Again, this should never take away the eternal 100% of the message of Christ: Only through Him can humans be forgiven and saved forever, and one day He is coming back. No one can prophesize this day besides God Himself, although there have been several cults that have attempted to do so in the past and will continue in the future.
     
  14. gus1701

    gus1701 New Member

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    I really enjoy the Left Behind Series even though I disagree with the whole rapture thing. The more I study the Bible the more I have to lean towards the post-trib view. In my opinion the book of Revelations was written to the believers of that time and warning them about the coming destruction of Jerusalem. I try not to put too much focus on all this and worry more about following Jesus because we may all be wrong about the end times.
     
  15. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Amen, and "surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).
     
  16. Yauming

    Yauming Member

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    Sorry I disargree. What about Enoch? In NIV Genesis 5:23-24

    "Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. <SUP>24</SUP> Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."

    Here was a person whom God took away from earth. And why?

    In the book of Hebrews, it is written...

    "By faith [Gen 5:21-24] <B>Enoch</B> was taken up so that he would not [Luke 2:26; John 8:51; Heb 2:9] see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God."


    You may also like to refer to Jude 1:14 and hear what Enoch prophecied.

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