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Through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all-Original Sin

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by redleghunter, Jan 15, 2019.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    That is not why babies die. It's not related to Adam's sin in the slightest.
     
  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Of course not.

    We are created mortal, from the dust of the Earth meant to return to it.
     
  3. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    We were created just mortal? But, how does that work with a worldview that we are to live forever in the new earth? So, if Adam didn't sin, or anyone, we would still die and wait for the resurrection? I'm confused.
     
  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    What do you mean by "just"? Of course we are mortals...we age and die.
    We need salvation and to be resurrected of course. It is written that we must die in order to be resurrected, 1Co 15:36.

    Yes. Mortals die.
     
  5. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    So [garden of] Eden was suppose to be temporal to begin with, even if man obeyed the command? I've never heard this in my life. What then was the purpose of the tree of life?

    Edit: I added [garden of]
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I assume you mean the garden in Eden not Eden itself.

    Adam was mortal so he would have died eventually and all sin so there was no way Adam was not going to sin in the garden.
     
  7. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    Yes, that was my mistake, the garden in Eden.

    I edited my post, I asked what was the purpose of the tree of life?
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Gen 3:22 says eating from it could make one live forever and it is implied Adam did not eat of it since he did die. I think it was some type of test to see which tree they would eat from. They made the wrong choice.
     
  9. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    Those are some interesting views, different from what I normally hear, but I suppose I don't hear enough.

    I am convinced that the malediction God pronounced against Adam referred to both a temporal bodily death, and an eternal death of body and soul in Gehenna. Adam should have died (in the body) immediately after breaching this covenant agreement (as federal head to all his posterity), and I argue that Genesis 3:21 proves that in mercy God relented of that immediate consequence in killing an animal as a temporal atonement for that particular sin in the body (although it had no real power to remove sin itself). The eternal malediction, fallen from all spiritual endowments he may have originally enjoyed, and the future consequence of damnation, was active immediately when he sinned. We are born corrupt and condemned, alienated from the life of God, with nothing to commend us to him with.

    I suppose we will continue to disagree, no point in pursuing this conversation.
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Why do you think that when he says:

    “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.”

    Everyone suffered the second death from Adam to Moses? Noah? Abraham?
     
  11. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Fair enough but allow me to post some scripture that disagrees with the above statement:

    Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


    Other translations:


    (CEV) I did learn one thing: We were completely honest when God created us, but now we have twisted minds.


    (ESV) See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.


    (GW) I have found only this: God made people decent, but they looked for many ways to avoid being decent."


    (MSG) Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things.


    upright


    3477

    03477 yashar {yaw-shawr'}


    from 03474; TWOT - 930a; adj


    AV - right 53, upright 42, righteous 9, straight 3, convenient 2,
    Jasher 2, equity 1, just 1, meet 1, meetest 1, upright ones 1,
    uprightly 1, uprightness 1, well 1; 119


    1) straight, upright, correct, right
    1a) straight, level
    1b) right, pleasing, correct
    1c) straightforward, just, upright, fitting, proper
    1d) uprightness, righteous, upright
    1e) that which is upright (subst)



    God hath made man upright, meaning righteous and good, but man seeks out things that alter this beginning.


    Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


    Psalms 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.


    Psalms 92:15 To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.



    Even God describes himself as 03477 yashar and creating man as 03477 yashar means we are not born in sin and not created imperfect and flawed.


    Matthew 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.


    Even here we see that a wicked man progressed in his wickedness. His ending state was worse than his beginning. Mankind is created upright and righteous but we all progress from that state in our unrighteousness. Not all end up as bad as the above example but we all do become more unrighteous than when we were first created.
     
  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The text says so. We all die. God said they would surely die and they did. The genealogy attests to people being fathered and then eventually dying. That is why Jesus rose from the dead Bodily.
     
  13. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    It means sin caused people to be spiritually dead which ultimately leads to the second death unless they are saved by Christ. Do you know why that reign ended at Moses? Because the law provided a way to cleanse someone from sin. That was perfected in Christ's sacrifice bringing in a better covenant.
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Good point. When they sinned in the Garden they were cast out cut off from the Tree of Life.

    Genesis 3: NASB

    22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
     
  15. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Actually the text says they would die that same day and they did. It was a spiritual death. Physical death was not mentioned as part of their punishment because it is natural for mortals to die.

    Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    This doesn’t pass the Genesis 3 test:

    22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. (NASB)

    Therefore, our physical deaths are caused by the sin of Adam.
     
  17. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one." - Job 14:4
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Please explain. This makes no sense.
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Wise 2have humblepride but not PridefulHumbleness. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    There is nothing there to support this claim. We die physically only because we are created mortal and intended to die.
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    That’s a bold assumption. He was cut off from the ToL and as such eventually dies as do his descendants.
     
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