Thriving not surviving

mindlight

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In the Nineteenth Century in much of Europe indeed most of the world most people were motivated by physical survival for most of their lives. Absolute poverty, poor diet, poor health and bad working and living conditions, lack of welfare, health care provision, pensions, poor public infrastructure were all major issues. Indeed some of the best authors of this period addressed these kinds of issues e.g. Charles Dickens.

But today lifespans have doubled and quality of life for most improved by far more, we have a welfare state, universal healthcare, pensions, good housing, good public infrastructure. Most people are not wrestling with physical survival on a daily basis even though the stresses and strains of modern existence often make people feel like that.

Of course no one is suggesting undoing these achievements nor Aid budgets to countries yet to achieve them. But the spirit of European culture does need to move on from a primary focus on physical survival to how we can thrive as people in the Twenty First Century.

We need to thrive:

1) Places to grow – into a space faring civilization and into one that can live in the oceans and better manage the ocean spaces.

2) Higher and more sociable cultural visions than narcissistic egotism and comfort obsession e.g. Christian revival, restored families and modes of cultural identity that can survive the tests of globalization, modern stress, mobility and change.

3) A healthy engagement with the new technologies like robotics, genetics, telecommunications and computing as servants of human purposes not the masters of them. Technology should be our Butler not our Master. More Jeeves than Skynet basically

What do you think?
 

Tanj

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1 and 3 look good to me. 2 is silly. You are suggesting we grow and evolve regards where we live and what tools we use to live there, but throwback to a 2000 year old model which has shown absolutely no efficacy in doing any of the things you want it to do (surviving those various tests).
 
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mindlight

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1 and 3 look good to me. 2 is silly. You are suggesting we grow and evolve regards where we live and what tools we use to live there, but throwback to a 2000 year old model which has shown absolutely no efficacy in doing any of the things you want it to do (surviving those various tests).

Actually many of the early colonies in the Americas only survived cause of the religious faith and discipline of their founders. The strength to deal with change and uncertainty requires a rock solid foundation. Also are you really defending the essential selfishness and egotism of the modern world against a vision which recognises social obligations and connections.

There are things that do need to change and things which do not. If everything is up for grabs people are just confused with the major mental health issues our society faces today.
 
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Tanj

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Actually many of the early colonies in the Americas

Are entirely irrelevant to the question, which is about today's society.

Also are you really defending the essential selfishness and egotism of the modern world against a vision which recognises social obligations and connections.

Nope. Perhaps you could connect the dots on that one.


There are things that do need to change and things which do not. If everything is up for grabs people are just confused with the major mental health issues our society faces today.

Sure. We just disagree on the nature of that change. I'd like to move forward, you are intent on moving backwards.
 
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mindlight

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Are entirely irrelevant to the question, which is about today's society.

Right and history teaches us nothing!? In an era where space and ocean colonies are now a real possibility the question needs to be asked what is the key to the success of such places in extremely difficult circumstances. Christian faith has clearly proven a part of that in the past and will most likely in the future also.

Sure. We just disagree on the nature of that change. I'd like to move forward, you are intent on moving backwards.

This idea of liberal progress to an undefined and rather confused end is the problem not the solution. Where so many people have dissolved the reference points to their sanity by disregarding what is true for what is new and what works for what looks interesting no wonder there are so many mental health cases. You cannot improve on perfection, you cannot add to truth, you cannot become better than good or purer than pure. So much change is actually regression that weakens the person who succumbs to it.

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths" 2 Tim 4:3-4
 
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only a sojourner

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Health care in the United States is not universal and there are millions of people here
who live in a state of extreme insecurity, financial and otherwise in which basic needs are not being met. However the majority are reasonably comfortable and probably fit the description you state which is why there is resistance to and litle progress made toward fundamental, more comprehensive reforms.
 
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mindlight

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Health care in the United States is not universal and there are millions of people here
who live in a state of extreme insecurity, financial and otherwise in which basic needs are not being met. However the majority are reasonably comfortable and probably fit the description you state which is why there is resistance to and litle progress made toward fundamental, more comprehensive reforms.

The USA does not have a major issue with absolute poverty but its safety net does not really compare with Europes. Europe needs a higher vision while America still need to fix the basics - e.g. health , deficit etc
 
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jayem

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Right and history teaches us nothing!? In an era where space and ocean colonies are now a real possibility the question needs to be asked what is the key to the success of such places in extremely difficult circumstances. Christian faith has clearly proven a part of that in the past and will most likely in the future also.

What particular Christian faith do you have in mind? Christianity runs the gamut from Quakers, and Unitarians, through mainstream Protestants, and Catholics, and Evangelicals, and Messianic Jews, and the various Orthodox traditions. Not to mention the LDS (who consider themselves Christian. And in the US is one of the 5 largest faiths in the country,) and Christian Science, and Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Anabaptists, and hundreds of other denominations. What would be the status of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Bahai's, and Jains, among others? And what about all of us non-religious/secular/non-affiliated folks? Who collectively are the 3rd largest "faith" group in the world.

'No Religion' Is World's Third-Largest Religious Group After Christians, Muslims According To Pew Study | HuffPost
 
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mindlight

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What particular Christian faith do you have in mind? Christianity runs the gamut from Quakers, and Unitarians, through mainstream Protestants, and Catholics, and Evangelicals, and Messianic Jews, and the various Orthodox traditions. Not to mention the LDS (who consider themselves Christian. And in the US is one of the 5 largest faiths in the country,) and Christian Science, and Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Anabaptists, and hundreds of other denominations. What would be the status of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Bahai's, and Jains, among others? And what about all of us non-religious/secular/non-affiliated folks? Who collectively are the 3rd largest "faith" group in the world.

'No Religion' Is World's Third-Largest Religious Group After Christians, Muslims According To Pew Study | HuffPost

The pluralism within Christianity is often stressed at the expense of Christian unity in Christ. But all Christian denominations share the advantage of Gods grace and mercy and real presence.

What the Catholic Jesuits accomplished building a church in hostile places like China or Japan , or missionaries of various Protestant groups throughout the British empire or what Puritans achieved building the early American colonies are examples of this indefatigable spirit for good.

Determined groups of atheists have achieved some pretty awful things like Mao and Stalins genocides, or the modern liberal atheist genocide of the unborn. But I cannot see much good that they have achieved.
 
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jayem

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Determined groups of atheists have achieved some pretty awful things like Mao and Stalins genocides, or the modern liberal atheist genocide of the unborn. But I cannot see much good that they have achieved.

Don't forget that millions of Christians died in the Catholic/Protestant religious wars that ravaged Europe in the 17th century. It was religious persecution that lead the Puritans to escape King James' England. First going to Holland, and eventually to establish the Plymouth colony in the new world. Back in the day, Christians killed each other over such nonsense as whether you baptize infants or adults. The reason we don't see these atrocities anymore is because of the liberal values of the Enlightenment. Which ultimately broke the temporal power of churches. This same liberal thinking gave us the US Constitution. Which states that no particular religious faith can ever be established by law. And no type of lawful worship can be prohibited. If you're a religious believers, you should thank God for that.
 
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mindlight

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Don't forget that millions of Christians died in the Catholic/Protestant religious wars that ravaged Europe in the 17th century. It was religious persecution that lead the Puritans to escape King James' England. First going to Holland, and eventually to establish the Plymouth colony in the new world. Back in the day, Christians killed each other over such nonsense as whether you baptize infants or adults. The reason we don't see these atrocities anymore is because of the liberal values of the Enlightenment. Which ultimately broke the temporal power of churches. This same liberal thinking gave us the US Constitution. Which states that no particular religious faith can ever be established by law. And no type of lawful worship can be prohibited. If you're a religious believers, you should thank God for that.

You have an idealised view of reality if you think the European religious wars gave way to liberalism or indeed were entirely to do with religion in the first place. They were displaced by nationalism and imperialism which proved far more bloody as the 2 world wars of the last century demonstrated.

Also English persecution was not like on the continent or indeed in the Muslim world today. The numbers actually killed was very low. The stakes for the Puritans were far higher than just life and death.

The desire for freedom for poor people, slaves, women and other races was a distinctively Christian thing also. The recent cooption of the drive for freedom by gay rights activists, extreme feminists and freaks is a corruption of this godly instinct.
 
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jayem

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You have an idealised view of reality if you think the European religious wars gave way to liberalism or indeed were entirely to do with religion in the first place. They were displaced by nationalism and imperialism which proved far more bloody as the 2 world wars of the last century demonstrated.

Most wars are ultimately about power. But religion is an accessory. It provides a veneer of godliness for brutality and persecution. History shows this. I'll resort to Godwin for an example: I won't claim the Nazi architects of the "Final Solution" were practicing Christians. (Though all came from Christian families.) But do you think they could have murdered millions of Jews if the European church had not taught for centuries that Jews were cursed as being responsible for Jesus's death? The Nazi's found fertile soil for their hateful racial ideas because the Catholic and Protestant churches had so poisoned people's mind with anti-Semitic dogma. And where was the church when German, Polish, Austrian, Dutch, and French Jews were removed from their homes and being deported to death camps? With a few exceptions like Pastors Bonhoeffer and Niemoller, Christians were largely silent. Christianity was not directly responsible for the Holocaust. That was the Nazi's doing. But European Christianity enabled it. Far too few German religious leaders lacked the courage to stand openly against Hitler. And if Christianity is supposed to promote virtue and righteousness, then this was an epic moral failing for the ages.

The desire for freedom for poor people, slaves, women and other races was a distinctively Christian thing also.

Not all Christians. The Southern Baptist Convention, which is one of the largest American Protestant denominations, was founded on the support of slavery. Before the Civil War, they split from northern Baptists who were largely anti-slavery. And even after slavery was abolished, the SBC strongly supported legally enforced racial segregation for about another 100 years. To their credit, they finally admitted their error, and apologized. But not till the mid 1990s. They even elected a Black president of their convention. I'm sure you'll agree that confession and repentance is good for churches too. And I have no doubt that the day is coming when churches will repent for their teachings about LGBT persons.
 
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mindlight

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Most wars are ultimately about power. But religion is an accessory. It provides a veneer of godliness for brutality and persecution. History shows this. I'll resort to Godwin for an example: I won't claim the Nazi architects of the "Final Solution" were practicing Christians. (Though all came from Christian families.) But do you think they could have murdered millions of Jews if the European church had not taught for centuries that Jews were cursed as being responsible for Jesus's death? The Nazi's found fertile soil for their hateful racial ideas because the Catholic and Protestant churches had so poisoned people's mind with anti-Semitic dogma. And where was the church when German, Polish, Austrian, Dutch, and French Jews were removed from their homes and being deported to death camps? With a few exceptions like Pastors Bonhoeffer and Niemoller, Christians were largely silent. Christianity was not directly responsible for the Holocaust. That was the Nazi's doing. But European Christianity enabled it. Far too few German religious leaders lacked the courage to stand openly against Hitler. And if Christianity is supposed to promote virtue and righteousness, then this was an epic moral failing for the ages.


The passion for doing anything is ultimately about worship as it is from God that our life and gifts are given. But many people lose focus and worship as their highest reality power, money, sex or the creation itself for instance. It is this idolatry that motivates false wars and obedience to God that fuels good ones like against the Nazis, Communists or Islamic Extremists for instance. So I will not say that war is always an evil thing. I would not be living in a free Germany right now had not a war been fought by Christians from nations like the USA and Britain against the Nazis. Sometimes the stakes are so high that even violence is justifiable.


That so many German Christians whether because of the wounds of the First War, or fear of the Nazi regime, cause of an idolatry of nation and volk over God or because they chose the easy way over what is hard did not see the Nazis for what they were until it was too late is bad. Not all did, many died opposing Hitler and this is often forgotten by those who wish to make the Nazis an excuse for unbelief. But the vast majority of the worlds Christians fought against this regime. Also as in the days of the brutal Roman Empire Christians are not urged to be revolutionaries but rather to submit to the authorities that be. In time God achieves his will as he did with Constantine in the Roman Empire for instance. Gods will was done in the humiliation of German defeat. The Jews achieved the promised land and an Eurocentric Imperial order founded on white racism was irretrievably shattered. Today the Germans are amongst the most peaceable of peoples on the planet. Indeed too much so in my view, to the point of being easy prey were it not for their membership of NATO.



Not all Christians. The Southern Baptist Convention, which is one of the largest American Protestant denominations, was founded on the support of slavery. Before the Civil War, they split from northern Baptists who were largely anti-slavery. And even after slavery was abolished, the SBC strongly supported legally enforced racial segregation for about another 100 years. To their credit, they finally admitted their error, and apologized. But not till the mid 1990s. They even elected a Black president of their convention. I'm sure you'll agree that confession and repentance is good for churches too. And I have no doubt that the day is coming when churches will repent for their teachings about LGBT persons.


It was Christians that drove the abolition of slavery aka Wilberforce and the Clapham Sect in the UK. That some Americans took their time to catch up with Christs teaching is not my problem and again is not an excuse for unbelief.The global church has always been multiracial. Augustine was an African for example.


In America today 50% of the wealth is controlled by about 1% of the population. Many people work in jobs they hate to pay mortgages for their homes and massively inflated health costs. Often slaves had an easier lifestyle. God made us to be free but the loaded labels we employ to defy him need more serious examination because they do not survive scrutiny.
 
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