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Three stars in the sky

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by chunkofcoal, Jul 16, 2016.

  1. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    If I understand correctly the end of Sabbath is when three stars appear in the sky. I've been thinking about this and wondering if the three stars symbolize someone, or something. There are threes in the Bible - like when Yeshua went up on the mountain and Moses and Elijah appeared with Him, or like in Zechariah 4 there are two anointed ones who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.
    Do the three stars have some deeper meaning in Judaism and/or Messianic Judaism?
     
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  2. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

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    Shalom CoC! :wave: good to see you again!

    That's a good question.

    Today's parsha was on Numbers 20 where Miriam died.

    Many don't look at these three siblings as the leaders of Israel in the wilderness.

    But there were three of them, Miriam who was the 'savior' of Moses, Aaron who was the High Priest
    and Moses.

    Don't know if that has any significance or not but that's what's brought to mind right now.


    Great Rabbis of the previous generations (especially Rav Tukachinkski zt"l) calculated that these three stars (and the absence of red in the western sky) occurs 32 minutes after sunset in winter, and up to 38 minutes in summer. This is when the sun is 8 degrees below the horizon. This calculation of 8 degrees below the horizon is used in many (most?) countries - and comes out to 50-60 minutes in Europe and America. It gets longer as one goes north.
    ------------------------------------------------

    IN all that I've read on this there doesn't seem to be any reason behind the choice of three. Some say three small stars, others say three medium stars (which means the small stars would mean others could be seen), so after finding no specific reason in the Talmud a thought came to me that it was G-ds witnessing that Shabbat is over.



    Deuteronomy 17:6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a ...

    Yeshua taught the same:

    Matthew 18:16
    But if they will not listen, take one or two others ... ... But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' ...
     
  3. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    It relates to the witnesses. Scriptures say "two or three" (a Hebrew way of saying "two or more") witnesses are required in any serious matter, and as regards shabbat halaka settled on three just in case someone were to mistake a planet for a star.
     
  4. ShaulHaTarsi

    ShaulHaTarsi Active Member

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    The concept in Hebrew is known as צאת הכוכבים, Tze'et Hakokhavim, lit. "when the stars go out". Jewish culture has a longstanding affinity to the number three as being meant to signify fortification and confirmation (Hazakah, חזקה). Nehemia 4:15 is used as a partial reference for stars signifying the end of day.

    The three stars themselves have little meaning in Judaism itself; the Bible being replete with mentions of A Star, or The Star. In fact, the Sabbath begins and ends sometime between sunset (Shkiah) and Tz'et Hakokhavim. The latter of the two being used only as a certainty of something that has already passed.
     
  5. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    Hi Lulav! Thanks for remembering me!

    I hadn't thought about the three stars being three "witnesses." That makes sense! Thanks!
     
  6. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    Nehemiah 4:15?
     
  7. ShaulHaTarsi

    ShaulHaTarsi Active Member

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  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    There is a mitzvah to "add from the profane to the holy." In simple words, this means that we celebrate Shabbat and Jewish holidays for at least a bit longer than the prescribed time, to show how precious this time is to us. IT protects the edges of the Sabbath.
     
  9. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    Thanks!
     
  10. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

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    But are we to take what is common and make it Holy? did not G-d alone sanctify that day and make it Holy? separate from the rest of the days of the week? It is a wonderful thing but should we as humans take it upon ourselves to make such a ordinance on time?

    Just thinking outloud here. STS
     
  11. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    In Deuteronomy, they were instructed to “Guard (shamor) the Sabbath day”. I think this was more than Exodus where it is commanded “Remember (zachor) the Sabbath day”.

    We guard against sin. In this sense, I think this extension of time is securing the fringes of twilight to ensure that the Sabbath is secure. The halacha of waiting for the three stars probably came from that. Regarding the grey area between day and night part of the Sabbath is keeping us from jumping the gun on the activities and thoughts towards activities filling first of the week. In this sense it is keeping it Holy, not by God per say, but by our actions and attitude.

    All through the week we are to have the Sabbath in mind and making preparation to keep it according to the commandment. Even the counting of the days of the weeks are numbered by how close are we to the next sabbath day. We are not merely to observe the Sabbath as a legal matter but run forward like a father towards the prodigal son. Long before it arrives we greet it, and long after it ends we hold that date with Him just a little longer. We are to understand its spiritual bearings upon all the transactions of life.

    Is 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father; for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

    Daily it will be the prayer of believers that the sanctification of the Sabbath may rest upon them. So more than the three stars, the reason we hang on to the glimmers of the sabbath as another wonderful time with Him has come to a close.

    When the Sabbath is thus remembered, the temporal will not be allowed to encroach upon the spiritual. No duty pertaining to the six working days will be left for the Sabbath. During the week our energies will not be so exhausted in temporal labor that on the day when the Lord rested and was refreshed we should be too weary to engage in His service or in His Presence. I hope that the real purpose of the three stars does not overshadowed the moments of lingering time with Him.
     
  12. Grafted In

    Grafted In Newbie Supporter

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    Orion's Belt
    This article is about the group of stars within the constellation Orion. For other uses, seeOrion's Belt (disambiguation).
    [​IMG]
    Astrophotograph of Orion's Belt.
    Orion's Belt or the Belt of Orion, also known as the Three kings or Three Sisters, is anasterism in the constellation Orion. It consists of the three bright stars Alnitak, Alnilam andMintaka.

    Looking for Orion's Belt in the night sky is the easiest way to locate Orion in the sky. The stars are more or less evenly spaced in a straight line, and so can be visualized as thebelt of the hunter's clothing. They are best visible in the early night sky during the Northern Winter/Southern Summer, in particular the month of January at around 9.00 pm.[1]

    Maybe? Ok, maybe not.
     
  13. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    The first things you'll see are planets (Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, Mars), then the brightest stars (closest, most massive, hottest) seen are Vega, Sirius, Arcturus, and Fomalhaut. Orion's Belt or the Belt of Orion which is also known as the Three kings or Three Sisters consists of the three stars named Alnitak, Alnilam and Mintaka but they are not the first.
     
  14. roamer_1

    roamer_1 Well-Known Member

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    Alright, I have a tangential question:

    What of the relationship between darkness and latitude?

    I am in NW Montana and darkness comes awfully late in the summertime - Sometimes the stars aren't out until after 11:00pm, and in the winter, it can be full on dark by 4:30pm... likewise dawn.

    And to extrapolate to the ridiculous, Alaska and points north have a good deal of time when darkness does not come at all

    I tend to start Shabbat in early evening, and end it likewise, mostly because internet based fellowship tends to be closer to the equator, but I am curious.
     
  15. Mockingbird0

    Mockingbird0 Mimus polyglottos

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    According to the early 20th-century Jewish Encyclopedia special rules are used at very high latitude. If I recall aright, days are started at local solar noon (when the sun never sets) and at local solar midnight (when the sun never rises.) Or maybe it's the other way around.
     
  16. roamer_1

    roamer_1 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks - that's really interesting... But impractical in practice, at least for me... I guess I could prepare on Thursday, instead of Friday in the winter... That being the most difficult - Pretty hard to get the house clean and get food prepared when it is dark before you even get off work...
     
  17. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    Nothing like fishing for pike.
     
  18. roamer_1

    roamer_1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand the statement, unless you are referring to where I live - Pike are an invader species here, and while I have caught my share, I don't find them particularly 'fun'... Kinda like dragging in a log comparably... But then, I am a trout fisherman - A big rainbow, cut, or dolly is more my style.

    But, a pike is passable in the pan if you've got enough beer batter. :)
     
  19. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    My biggest thing with pike is that they dive and wind themselves in the weeds and somehow shake the hook off leaving you with nothing but weeds to drag up. .. That and bones
     
  20. roamer_1

    roamer_1 Well-Known Member

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    LOL! yeah... the trick is that they take the bait and go somewhere to eat it... watch when he runs out, but don't set the hook until they stop running out... Count to 5 and set. The hook will be down his throat.

    They can be fun, I guess. Every once in a wile you get one that can tail-dance... But man, it's hard to beat a big trout. You know the minute you set the hook, it's gonna be a wild ride.
     
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