Three persons, one substance... Substance?

[Tellyontellyon]

What does one substance mean?
It's not the same as one mind, as the three persons have different knowledge, so what is it?

 

[Ceallaigh]

They are coequal.

 

[HTacianas]

What does one substance mean?
It's not the same as one mind, as the three persons have different knowledge, so what is it?

I have pondered that before. What is the substance? No one really knows. If you were to imagine a few things in the abstract, such as ghosts, spirits, thoughts, coincidences, ESP, and others you might reach a conclusion.

 

[Ceallaigh]

There's no line in the Bible that says God is "three persons, one substance".

Although one could ask a similar question; how is faith a substance? Because the Bible does say: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

 

[Vap841]

Although one could ask a similar question; how is faith a substance? Because the Bible does say: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

Sounds like dualism, a claim that non-physical properties are ontologically real and not just abstract concepts

 

[Marc Munday]

If you read the first 4 chapters of Genesis there is named:

chapter 1

God &
Spirit of God

chapter 2-3

Lord God

chapter 4

Lord

Are these all different but equal or One and same interesting concept why only "Lord" in chapter 4 when Adam is booted out of Eden?

 

[Mark Quayle]

What does one substance mean?
It's not the same as one mind, as the three persons have different knowledge, so what is it?

Why do you think the three persons must have different knowledge?

And why not one mind? Here the Philippians are told to be like Christ and the Spirit.
--Philippians 2: "2 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;"

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What does one substance mean?
It's not the same as one mind, as the three persons have different knowledge, so what is it?

All three persons of the Trinity are God but retain their individuality. Since humans are made to be like and look like God, it's the best parable - since we are human, we are made of the same substance but are different people. However, humanity is not one the same way God is one.

A contrasting form of unity is present in the paranormal forms of unity between humans presently living. Where all people participating in it are equal to one another, and there is no identity, and no sense of personality. Examples of this online are when people scoff at the idea of "duality." People pulled into this drama against their will tend to talk about "spiritual vampires." It tends to be summed up in the saying "I am you, and you are me, we are one."

However, the Christian form of oneness is based on the trinity since Jesus prayed to the Father "may they be one as we are."

 

[Cormack]

Maybe looking into Thomistic metaphysics could help answer some of your questions, @Tellyontellyon.

The philosophy uses ideas like God isn’t a being but rather being itself (e.g. in Him we live and move and have our being.) I mean, the whole enterprise can sometimes seem like word soup to me, and it’s easier to throw my hands up and ease into comfortable mystery. But I see that as a deficiency in me, not in the subject matter.

So yeah, God as pure being, Thomas Aquinas, maybe the whole philosophy could see you to a place of understanding.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

duplicate

 

[Andrewn]

What does one substance mean? It's not the same as one mind, as the three persons have different knowledge, so what is it?

One thing to understand is that neither the word "substance" means substance in the modern sense nor the word "persons" means persons in the modern sense.

The word "Substance" has been translated into "Being" in the 1975 ecumenical version of the Nicene Creed and this is basically what it means.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What does one substance mean?
It's not the same as one mind, as the three persons have different knowledge, so what is it?

• Lexicon :: Strong's G5287 - hypostasis
  
  
  
  ὑπόστασις
  Transliteration
  hypostasis ὑπό (G5259) and ἵστημι (G2476)
  Greek Inflections of ὑπόστασις ὑποστάσει — 2x
  ὑποστάσεως — 2x
  ὑπόστασις — 1x
  Dictionary Aids
  Vine's Expository Dictionary: confidence (2x), confident (1x), person (1x), substance (1x).
  Outline of Biblical Usage G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively):— confidence, confident, person, substance.
  Thayer's Greek Lexicon Psalm 68:3 (Ps. 69:3); τοῦ οἴκου, Ezekiel 43:11; τοῦ τάφου, Diodorus 1, 66.
  2. that which has foundation, is firm; hence,
  a. that which has actual existence; a substance, real being: τῶν ἐν ἀερι φαντασμάτων τά μέν ἐστι κατ' ἐμφασιν, τά δέ καθ' ὑπόστασιν, Aristotle, de mundo, 4, 19, p. 395{a}, 30; φαντασίαν μέν ἔχειν πλούτου, ὑπόστασιν δέ μή, Artemidorus Daldianus, oneir. 3, 14; (ἡ αὐγή) ὑπόστασιν ἰδίαν οὐκ ἔχει, γεννᾶται δέ ἐκ φλογός, Philo de incorruptibil. mundi § 18; similarly in other writings (cf. Sophocles Lexicon, under the word, 5; Liddell and Scott, under the word, III. 2).
  b. the substantial quality, nature, of any person or thing: τοῦ Θεοῦ (R. V. substance), Hebrews 1:3 (Wis. 16:21; ἴδε... τίνος ὑποστάσεως ἤ τίνος εἴδους τυγχάνουσιν οὕς ἐρεῖτε καί νομιζετε Θεούς, Epist. ad' Diogn. 2, 1 [ET]; (cf. Suicer, Thesaurus, under the word)).
  c. steadiness of mind, firmness, courage resolution (οἱ δέ Ῥόδιοι θεωροῦντες τήν τόν Βυζαντινων ὑπόστασιν, Polybius 4, 50, 10; οὐχ οὕτω τήν δύναμιν, ὡς τήν ὑπόστασιν αὐτοῦ καί τολμᾶν καταπεπληγμενων τῶν ἐναντίων, id. 6, 55, 2; add, Diodorus 16, 32f; Josephus, Antiquities 18, 1, 6); confidence, firm trust, assurance: 2 Corinthians 9:4; 2 Corinthians 11:17; Hebrews 3:14; Hebrews 11:1 (for תִּקְוָה, Ruth 1:12; Ezekiel 19:5; for תּוחֶלֶת, Psalm 38:8 (Ps. 39:8)). Cf. Bleek, Br. an d. Hebrew ii. 1, pp. 60ff, 462ff; Schlatter, Glaube im N. T., p. 581.
  THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
  Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
  All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com
  1:12
  Psalms
  38:8; 39:8; 68:3; 69:3
  Ezekiel
  19:5; 43:11
  2 Corinthians
  9:4; 11:17
  Hebrews
  1:3; 3:14; 11:1
  Word / Phrase / Strong's Search
  Next Strong's G5288 ››
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  Concordance Results Shown Using the kjv
  Strong's Number G5287 matches the Greek ὑπόστασις (hypostasis),
  which occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the tr Greek.
  
  2Co 9:4
  
  Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident G5287 boasting.
  2Co 11:17
  
  That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence G5287 of boasting.
  Heb 1:3
  
  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, G5287 and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
  Heb 3:14
  
  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence G5287 stedfast unto the end;
  Heb 11:1
  
  Now faith is the substance G5287 of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Norbert L]

I have pondered that before. What is the substance? No one really knows. If you were to imagine a few things in the abstract, such as ghosts, spirits, thoughts, coincidences, ESP, and others you might reach a conclusion.

I viewed a less than abstract geometrical visualization of a single 3D object intersecting a 2D plain in three different places.

 

[public hermit]

The original wording, if I'm not mistaken, is one essence (ousia) and three hypostases.

Basil of Caesarea: The distinction between ousia and hypostases is the same as that between the general and the particular; as, for instance, between the animal and the particular man. Wherefore, in the case of the Godhead, we confess one essence or substance so as not to give variant definition of existence, but we confess a particular hypostasis, in order that our conception of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit may be without confusion and clear.

Hypostasis (philosophy and religion) - Wikipedia

Perhaps we can say the essence or substance is divinity, of which there is only one? There are not three Gods, but only one God. But that one God is three hypostases, persons. They don't share that one essence or substance, they are one essence or substance

If we see three men, we would say they all share the same essence of being human, but we would not say of all three together, "There is a human." We would say, "There are three humans" However, in relation to the Trinity, we do not say they share the essence of divinity, so that "They are Gods." We say, "They are God." So, there is a definite break in the usual way we speak of essence/substance in relation to the Trinity. (That example comes from Gregory of Nyssa-On Not Three Gods)

 

[Tellyontellyon]

However, in relation to the Trinity, we do not say they share the essence of divinity, so that "They are Gods." We say, "They are God." So, there is a definite break in the usual way we speak of essence/substance in relation to the Trinity.

But what IS that essence? God, essence, substance are words... What are the definable qualities of that single essence... As it can't be knowledge, as the three 'persons' differ in their knowledge... Or at least they did at the time Jesus said that only 'the Father' knows, but not 'the Son'.

 

[mmarco]

But what IS that essence? God, essence, substance are words... What are the definable qualities of that single essence... As it can't be knowledge, as the three 'persons' differ in their knowledge... Or at least they did at the time Jesus said that only 'the Father' knows, but not 'the Son'.

When we talk about trascendental concepts, it is not possible to give a strict definition, because we should use other words which should be defined in their turn, in an infinite succession of definitions; these concepts can be grasped only through intuition.
In philosophy, the essence of a thing is described as that whereby a thing is what it is, and it is equivalent to the term "nature"; so the essence of God is the divine nature itself, the divinity itself. The point is that only God can comprehend and know the essence of God; we must accept that our limited and finite mind cannot comprehend God in His essence. Actually, I think that we cannot fully comprehend ourselves either; man remains always partially a mistery for himself. It is totally illogical to think we can comprehend the nature of God.

 

[public hermit]

what IS that essence?

The tradition holds that the divine essence is ultimately inscrutable. The Cappadocians were adamant that the divine essence, as it is in itself, is not something we can comprehend. Whatever it is, it is divine and therefore sui generis.

The doctrine of the Trinity makes no claim concerning the divine essence. What it claims is that the one and only divine essence is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Same essence-homoousia. Not similar essence-homoiousia. The Son is fully divine as is the Father.

The only difference within the Godhead that the Cappadocians allowed for was causal. The Father is eternal without generation. The Son is the only eternal generation of the Father. The Spirit proceeds eternally. But none of these distinctions have a temporal aspect. All eternally One.

As it can't be knowledge, as the three 'persons' differ in their knowledge... Or at least they did at the time Jesus said that only 'the Father' knows, but not 'the Son'

That's a great question. Traditionally, I think it would be explained by the communication of attributes/properties. Jesus, being both fully divine and fully human, did things both divine and human. All of which he did as one person. His lack of knowledge in this instance was a human property. Add to that the notion of kenosis, i.e. the 2nd Person "emptied himself" of certain aspects proper to divinity in order to become incarnate. But yeah, the mind boggles trying to get a handle on it.

Communicatio idiomatum - Wikipedia

Kenosis - Wikipedia

I think it's important to remember that the divinity of Christ was accepted very early on. If you mirror read the first chapter of 1st John, it is likely the backdrop issue was that people didn't believe Jesus was human. This is why John makes a point to say, "We saw him, we touched him, etc." So, it's virtually the opposite of how some might struggle today accepting his divinity. They didn't think he was human. All that to say, the virtually unquestioned acceptance of Christ's divinity (or something very close to divine) immediately raises the question of his relation to God. Is he God in a human body? Part God, part human? Something inbetween (Arius). The Trinity is mostly about the relationship between the Father and Son (and Spirit). Not so much about the details of divine essence.

 

[Albion]

What does one substance mean?

It means that there is only one being (God).

It's not the same as one mind, as the three persons have different knowledge, so what is it?

The three do not have separate knowledge.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

But what IS that essence? God, essence, substance are words... What are the definable qualities of that single essence... As it can't be knowledge, as the three 'persons' differ in their knowledge... Or at least they did at the time Jesus said that only 'the Father' knows, but not 'the Son'.

Telly, as a Buddhist, one way to look at it is the opening of the Tao de Ching.

The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.​

We use Greek philosophical terms because its was the first way that we humans, in our limited language, can describe the indescribable from the Christian point of view.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Interesting .. thank you all.