Three Kingdom Baptisms Versus One Baptism For Today 01.20.2020

[Mathetes66]

One was forbidden to be preached to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5)

Amazing how those 11 apostles (minus Iscariot) went & preached to the Gentiles only 2 years later, starting with Peter! I already showed all 11 were preaching the same gospel as Paul. I showed the content of that. I showed again the reason why Paul, as well as the 11 had to FIRST PREACH THIS SAME GOSPEL TO THE JEWS FIRST, THEN THE GENTILES. Jesus commanded all of them to do that very thing. This all was prophesied by all the prophets! It had to be preached to the Jews first IN ORDER TO FULFILL ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ALL THE PROPHETS! This one gospel is an eternal gospel, not a stop-gap gospel for Jews only but not for Gentiles & then somehow a different gospel for Gentiles.

Acts 15:1ff But some men came down from Judea & were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved...It is necessary to circumcise them & TO ORDER THEM to keep the law of Moses.”

The apostles AND the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up & said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the EARLY DAYS God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear THE word of THE gospel & believe.

8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit JUST AS HE DID TO US & He made NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN US & THEM, having cleansed their hearts BY FAITH. Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing A YOKE ON THE NECK OF THE {GENTILE} disciples that NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BEAR? But WE BELIEVE THAT WE WILL BE SAVED THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS, JUST AS THEY WILL.”

They sent Judas called Barsabbas & Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter: “THE BROTHERS, both the apostles and the elders, TO THE BROTHERS WHO ARE OF THE GENTILES in Antioch & Syria & Cilicia, greetings.

24Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised & keep the law”—TO WHOM WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT—

25it has seemed good to us, having come to ONE ACCORD, to choose men & send them to you with OUR BELOVED Barnabas & Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas & Silas, who themselves will tell you THE SAME THINGS by word of mouth.

This negates your second point. Peter admits that none of them, clear back to Moses, could keep the Law! That is why they & the Gentiles are saved by grace through faith--the same way for both.

God makes no distinction between Jew & Gentile; all are saved by grace through faith in the promised Messiah, the Son of God, who was predicted (as I have shown already in many verses) thousands of years before to fulfill His sufferings, His death, His descent into heck (Sheol/Hades), His resurrection out from among the dead, His sacrificial, substitutionary death to bring us back to God, reconcile us, forgive us of our sins, regenerate us by the baptism & washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ. He is the baptizer in the Spirit.

Yes, there is a physical millenium where Christ rules on the earth for a 1000 years & there is a spiritual heavenly kingdom where resurrected saints inherit the New Jerusalem, which will come down out of heaven & come ON THE EARTH where it will be forever. Back on earth once again, in a new heavens & a new earth.

However, the saints, those pre-Jew (Enoch, Adam, Job, Abel, etc.), Jew & Gentile who have put their trust in Christ WILL REIGN WITH CHRIST ON EARTH during the millenial reign, including the 12 apostles, Paul & others. So believers in Christ will be involved IN BOTH, co-reigning with Christ, as Paul taught.

But carry on, I am moving on.

 

[Guojing]

One was forbidden to be preached to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5)

Amazing how those 11 apostles (minus Iscariot) went & preached to the Gentiles only 2 years later, starting with Peter! I already showed all 11 were preaching the same gospel as Paul. I showed the content of that. I showed again the reason why Paul, as well as the 11 had to FIRST PREACH THIS SAME GOSPEL TO THE JEWS FIRST, THEN THE GENTILES. Jesus commanded all of them to do that very thing. This all was prophesied by all the prophets! It had to be preached to the Jews first IN ORDER TO FULFILL ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ALL THE PROPHETS! This one gospel is an eternal gospel, not a stop-gap gospel for Jews only but not for Gentiles & then somehow a different gospel for Gentiles.

God makes no distinction between Jew & Gentile; all are saved by grace through faith in the promised Messiah, the Son of God, who was predicted (as I have shown already in many verses) thousands of years before to fulfill His sufferings, His death, His descent into hell (Sheol/Hades), His resurrection out from among the dead, His sacrificial, substitutionary death to bring us back to God, reconcile us, forgive us of our sins, regenerate us by the baptism & washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ. He is the baptizer in the Spirit.

Yes, there is a physical millenium where Christ rules on the earth for a 1000 years & there is a spiritual heavenly kingdom where resurrected saints inherit the New Jerusalem, which will come down out of heaven & come ON THE EARTH where it will be forever. Back on earth once again, in a new heavens & a new earth.

However, the saints, those pre-Jew (Enoch, Adam, Job, Abel, etc.), Jew & Gentile who have put their trust in Christ WILL REIGN WITH CHRIST ON EARTH during the millenial reign, including the 12 apostles, Paul & others. So believers in Christ will be involved IN BOTH, co-reigning with Christ, as Paul taught.

But carry on, I am moving on.

Nothing amazing about what you said.

Yes You are correct, that gospel of the kingdom expired after about a year into acts, around the time Stephen was stoned.

it was after that that Jesus raised Paul and revealed to him that brand new gospel Galatians 1:12, which is the gospel of the grace of God.

That gospel was opened to the gentiles

 

[Terral]

Hi Mathetes:

Thank you for writing on the Four Baptisms Topic. You wrote:

Thank you, too! But I'm not going to REPEAT what I believe is false teaching, distorting the gospel. I give people credit for being intelligent enough to read the OP.

In other words, you have a thousand arguments supportable by God's Living Word, but there is no reason to waste time proving what is evident to readers of this thread. Like King Ahab said to King Ben-hadad, "Let not him who girds on his armor boast like him who takes it off." 1Kings 20:11.

Terral wrote: 1. Do you see the Two Gospels (Gospel of the Kingdom and Gospel of the Grace of God) in the NT?
2. Do you see the Two Churches (bride and body) in the NT?

Answering "No" would explain why you appear to be mixing the doctrinal precepts teaching the Two Gospels and Two Churches together to create one gospel and one church that has no place in Biblical reality at all."

Mathetes replies: Absolutely I say NO to both false teachings that have only came in the recent past. This is not what has been passed down to the saints right up to today from the historic apostolic churches. So I reject your judgment on me mixing these things up. Scripture doesn't do that, men do, seeking to confuse the unity in the Spirit.

A good idea might be to actually make a case using Scripture, before laying out the substance of your unsupported opinions and conclusions. The fallacy of your "NO to both false teachings..." is easily proven by pointing to the truth that from God's Word:

A. Two Gospels of the NT:

1. Gospel of the Kingdom. Matt. 4:23, 9:35, 24:14, Acts 8:12.

"Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee (Matt. 4:23), preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand [Matt. 4:17]; repent and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:14-15.

Here we see Jesus Christ preaching the "gospel of God" saying the "kingdom of God is at hand" proclaiming that Israel would "repent" and believe in the gospel in Mark 1 proving clearly that the gospel of God is being preached by the Son of God right out of the starting gate. Mathetes can deny the truth until the cows come home, but God's Word teaches otherwise. Then, we see Peter, John, James, Cornelius and others obtaining the forgiveness of sins and salvation via the "Gospel of the Kingdom," while Israel as a nation had NOT obtained (Romans 11:7) what Israel was seeing for the rest (Herod, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, lawyers, hypocrites) to be "hardened" leading to Israel's "transgression*" Romans 11:7-11*.

2. Gospel of the Grace of God. Acts 20:25.

God raised up Paul (Acts 9) to give him his "gospel to the Uncircumcised" (Gal. 2:7) characterized by Paul as the "gospel of the grace of God" part of the "whole purpose of God." Acts 20:24-27. Paul even makes mention of "preaching the kingdom" (Acts 20:25) in referencing the "Gospel of the Kingdom" that he also preached to the sons of Israel.

Conclusion: There are two well-defined and distinct "good news" (gospel) messages preached in the New Testament, even though Mathetes believes in his heart of hearts that the ONLY good news message is our Gospel of the Grace of God for building the body of Christ in the world today.

Eph 4:4,5 There is ONE BODY & ONE Spirit, just as you were called to ONE hope when you were called; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism...

Methetes! You can quote a hundred verses from the Pauline Epistles about the Gospel of the Grace of God also characterized as the "Word of the Cross" (1Cor. 1:17-18), but none of that changes the fact that John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and the Twelve all preached the "Gospel of the Kingdom" (from above) that you do not believe is a "gospel" at all. Since you deny the truth of God's Living Word and simply remove all references to the "gospel of God" preached by Jesus Christ from Mark 1, then you are also willing to block out the truth concerning Christ's Great Commission commands to His Disciples, saying,

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father [#1] and the Son [#2] and the Holy Spirit [#3]...". Matthew 28:18-19.

"And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel [Matt. 4:23, Mark 1:14-15] to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." Mark 1:15-16.

Three of the four OP baptisms are listed right here in Matthew 28:19 (also Acts 8:12-17, 19:1-6) with the fourth and final baptism being our "one baptism" done by the Holy Spirit when we obey the "message of truth" (Eph. 1:13-14) to become a member of the "body of Christ" (Eph. 4:12). Everyone here should realize that the OP of this thread highlighting the "four" baptisms of the New Testament in no way suggests that all four baptisms are in force today. The ONLY good news message with power today is the "Gospel of the Grace of God" that has only "one baptism" precisely as Mathetes believes is the only good news message preached in the New Testament.

Eph 2:14ff For He Himself is our peace, who made BOTH GROUPS INTO ONE & broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that IN HIMSELF He might make THE TWO INTO ONE NEW MAN, thus establishing peace-- (snip, Mathetes quoting from Pauline Epistles ignoring the "Gospel of the Kingdom" and the three baptisms of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.)

Paul is teaching "grace doctrine" to the members of the "body of Christ" (Eph. 4:12) saying that Jews and Gentiles obeying the "gospel of the grace of God" are all baptized into one Body of Christ. However, that changes nothing about the absolute fact that John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and the Twelve all preached the "Gospel of the Kingdom" to Israel ONLY throughout the Four Gospels and Acts. Paul's Epistles are written "to" the members of the Body of Christ, while Peter, John, James and the other kingdom epistles are written "to" Kingdom Disciples living through the upcoming Day of the Lord to the "end of the age" (see Matt. 24:3+) like Christ says in Matthew 24:14! Members of Christ's body in the world today do not obey James from James 2:10 regarding the keeping of Mosaic Law! Those commands are written "to" Kingdom Disciples obeying the Gospel of the Kingdom part of Kingdom Doctrine having nothing to do with members of Christ's body in the world today. We are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14.

What Jesus taught is what the apostles taught & what the prophets taught, the same message!

No. Again, John the Baptist and Jesus Christ are preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom right out of the starting gate in Mark 1! If you want to prove just one gospel and one church (because Mathetes mixes Kingdom and Grace doctrine), then go ahead and try to make that case using Scripture! 2Tim. 2:15. Good luck, because you will look funny and incompetent trying to prove Jesus Christ is preaching the "Gospel of the Grace of God" (Acts 20:24) as the "gospel of God" in Mark 1, when obviously Christ has not shed one drop of blood for anyone and would not for three more years.

ONE eternal kingdom with ONE King, ONE flock with ONE Shepherd & ONE Lord, ONE spiritual household, ONE dwelling place of God in the Spirit, ONE body, ONE church that Jesus is STILL building, ONE holy temple, ONE building of God, ONE new man in Christ, ONE bride, ONE faith we all believe & follow that was ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS, ONE baptism (of the Spirit that Jesus does, that baptizes every believer into the one body of Christ), ONE group of believers, both Jew & Gentile into ONE, ONE holy nation, ONE people for God's holy possession--AND THE LIST GOES ON from Genesis to Revelation.

Hmmm, no. Peter, John and James (Lord's brother) are representing the Prophetic Kingdom Bride (gathered by Gospel of the Kingdom) when Paul, Barnabas, and Titus show up at the famous meeting in Jerusalem (Acts 15/Gal.2). You are trying to say (without any proof, Zero, NONE) that Peter and Paul are representing the same church (NOT), when Paul must oppose and rebuke Peter to his face about the "truth of the Gospel" (Gal. 2:11-14) more than a decade after Peter preached the Gospel of the Kingdom on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2! Just admit that John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve are preaching the "Gospel of the Kingdom" in the Four Gospels with the three baptisms of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and perhaps we will have areas of agreement. Add our "one baptism" from Eph. 4:5 and you have the four baptisms from the OP of this thread.

Blessings,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Com7fy8:

Thank you for writing on the Four Baptisms thread. You wrote:

"He who is not with Me is against Me" (in Matthew 12:30, and also in Luke 11:23).

Jesus has Jews who are with Him, along with Gentiles who are with Jesus.

And there are Jews and Gentiles who are against Jesus, because they are not with Him...(snip)

You can obviously invest time writing on these topics in most anyway you wish following CoC rules/guidelines. Please allow me to offer a few recommendations that might help to get your points across:

1. Always address the member you are addressing in the opening salutation (Hi Terral, Hi Mathetes, etc.). Otherwise participating members and readers can easily be confused about who you are addressing.

2. A good idea is to always address the Opening Post (OP) writer first to establish yourself as an "advocate" (share same views), or an "adversary" (have opposing views) about OP interpretations. Once the OP writer has been addressed, and readers recognize you as an advocate or adversary to the OP topic, then the door is open to address other participants in the topic deliberations.

3. "Quote >>" the OP writer, or other member, to then offer your rebuttal/counterargument using statements supported by Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. Using this method allows participating members and readers to understand the reasoning behind your statements for developing an advocating or adversarial type reply or opinion.

4. Lastly, try to write on or very near the OP topic. If the topic is on New Testament Baptisms (like this one), then your writing is also on the topic of NT baptisms. Quoting the entire OP to write about something else allows every word from the writing member to stand by default.

In reading your post, then I am unsure about whether you are addressing me or Mathetes (Post #3). Quoting from the OP in your initial reply on this thread would tell me (even without an opening salutation) that you are addressing me. There is also nothing in the content of your post on the baptisms topic, which means there is no reason to provide clarifying statements since nothing you wrote addresses the OP topic.

Blessings,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Guojing:

Thank you for writing on the Four Baptisms topic. You wrote:

What was preached in the 4 Gospels versus what was preached by Paul in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are they all the same message?

No. John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve are all preaching the "Gospel of the Kingdom" that has saved nobody in almost 2000 years. Paul is writing about his "gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24-27, 24) characterized as the "word of the cross" (1Cor. 1:18) to the Corinthians in 1Cor. 15:1-5. Those mixing the Two Gospels (my OP) for the Two Churches (my OP) together oftentimes mix the doctrinal precepts teaching BOTH together into a man-made good news message that God sent to NOBODY. Mathetes simply disregards the Gospel of the Kingdom and the three kingdom baptisms (F+S+HS) as no good news message at all and perhaps there is nothing we can point out or say to help him see the Light. After all, if the "gospel of God" that Jesus Himself preaches in Mark 1:14-15 does not exist, then neither do the three baptisms of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). We shall see...

Blessings,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Mathetes and Guojing:

Holy molies...

Mathetes66 said: ↑

What Jesus taught is what the apostles taught & what the prophets taught, the same message!

The only right answer to your query is NO as explained here. Period. Now Mathetes will write and twist God's Word out of shape for hours using a heavy hammer to force square pegs into round holes...

Short answer is yes. Long answer is to practice Acts 17:11 & do one's homework & study of the Scriptures. One must be careful not to pull I Cor 15:1-4 out of its context as Paul goes on to explain in further detail what he said at the beginning, in the chapter. (snip Mathetes quote 1Cor. 15...) to write:

You will notice that Paul says the simple foundational elements of 'the' one gospel message is first in importance, not to be ignored.

Nonsense. There is no "one" in the verse where Paul is writing on the topic of the "word of the cross" (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message, which is the good news message by which his reading audience of this passage was saved. Mathetes sees only "one" gospel message ( not the Gospel of the Kingdom "and" Gospel of the Grace of God), so "the gospel" (of the grace of God) in 1Cor. 15 says "one" gospel in his mind, which is simply not accurate.

Second, you will notice this wasn't 'the' gospel message Paul decided on his own to preach--HE ALSO RECEIVED IT. The also is referring to the other apostles who received it also from Jesus & they all in turn preached the one gospel message that ALL THE PROPHETS foretold about. That is the 'we' Paul is talking about.

More NONSENSE. Mathetes keeps twisting Paul's words to agree with his preconceived notions about his "one gospel" that mixes Kingdom and Grace Doctrine together into a man-made concoction that God sent to NOBODY. Paul received "the gospel I preach among the Gentiles" (Gal. 2:2) by a "revelation of Jesus Christ."

"For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man [Gospel of the Kingdom]. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it [gospel of the grace of God] through a revelation of Jesus Christ." Galatians 1:11-12.

Paul would have another series of "revelations" that led him to Jerusalem for a specific purpose:

"Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus [Body of Christ members] along also. It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation [Peter, John, James: Gal. 2:7-9], for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain." Gal. 2:1-2.

Here we see Paul, Barnabas, and Titus going to Jerusalem to submit the "gospel to the Uncircumcised" (Gal. 2:7) to Peter, John and James in fear of failure, but Mathetes wants everyone to believe Peter, John, James, Paul and everyone else are all preaching his "one gospel" that apparently has no official name at all. Would that be the "Gospel of the Kingdom" named in Matthew 4:23, 9:35, etc.? Or would that be the gospel of the grace of God that Paul references in Acts 20:25 ALONG WITH "preaching the kingdom" and the "whole purpose of God."

"But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God ["word of the cross" 1Cor. 1:18, "the gospel" 1Cor. 15:1]. And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom ["Gospel of the Kingdom" Matt. 4:23,etc.], will no longer see my face. Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God [two gospels, two churches, four baptisms etc.]." Acts 20:24-27.

All the evidence will show that God began gathering Kingdom Disciples (like Peter, John and James) through John the Baptist and Jesus Christ, until the Apostles picked up the Gospel of the Kingdom ball on the Day of Pentecost. God then used the account of Stephen (Acts 6-7) to highlight Israel's "transgression" (Rom. 11:11). God then raised up Paul to give him our "gospel of the grace of God" (word of the cross) to make Israel jealous. Paul eventually stopped "preaching the kingdom" (Gospel of the Kingdom) to focus full attention on his ministry to the Gentiles that is still in force to this day.

It wasn't Paul's gospel. It was the gospel of the Messiah.

More nonsense! Most everything Mathetes is saying is easily refuted using God's Word that says:

"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel*, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." Romans 2:14-16.

The Apostle Paul, God's Word, and the Holy Spirit refer to the "gospel of the grace of God" as Paul's "my gospel," because our gospel for today was given to Paul ONLY via a "revelation of Jesus Christ" as shown above in this reply.

"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel* and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen." Romans 16:25-27.

Paul's "my gospel" (2Tim. 2:8) is tied direction to "the revelation of the mystery" (Eph. 3:1-3, Col. 1:24-27) right here his closing remarks to the Romans that Peter characterizes as "the wisdom given him" in issuing warnings about those distorting (twisting) and mishandling the Holy Scriptures, saying,

"Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him [the mystery definition], wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand [Gal. 2:11-14], which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2Peter 3:14-16.

The deal in a nutshell goes like this: Some of the members/readers here can see the "wisdom given him" (Paul) to distinguish "these things" from the Gospel of the Kingdom, Peter's Kingdom Bride Church, the three Kingdom Baptisms (F+S+HS) and some among us simply DO NOT. Those unable to recognize the vast differences between the Peter's Kingdom Church and Paul's Grace Mystery Church are mixing the doctrinal precepts teaching the Two Gospels, Two Churches, Four Baptisms, etc. together to create their own man-made gospel, their own man-made church, and their own man-made baptism that God never ever sent to anybody. I like Paul "am innocent of the blood of all men" having explained the "whole purpose of God" (Acts 20:24-27) that includes Kingdom Disciples as "Intercessors/Priests" AND Brethren Members of Christ's Body as "Judges/Rulers" who judge the world and the angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3). Everyone here has the right to wake up on your beds every morning distorting the "wisdom given him" and create your one gospel, one church, and one baptism if you wish, but everyone here has been warned repeatedly about the consequences.

PS. Christ told Peter and the Disciples about "My church" (the Kingdom Bride Church) in Matthew 16 to then warn them, "Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ/Messiah." Matthew 16:20. That simple statement blows Mathetes' false claim out of the water about the Messiah's gospel...

Blessings,

Terral

 

[nolidad]

Greetings to All:

This thread is dedicated to deliberations on the differences between the Four Baptisms of the New Testament connected to the Two Gospels (link) and Two Churches (link) of the New Testament from previous deliberations. There are three baptisms for the "Gospel of the Kingdom" and just one baptism for Paul's "Word of the Cross" gospel message. Read Acts 19:1-6 to realize “preaching the kingdom” (Acts 20:24-27) includes three distinct baptisms of the Father (John’s Baptism; Acts 19:3), and the Son (“name of Jesus Christ;” Acts 19:5), and the Holy Spirit (“laid his hands upon them:” Acts 19:6) from Matthew 28:19.

There are three baptisms depicting passage or "The Way" through the three sections of the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple (diagram and diagram) for the disciples of the Prophetic Kingdom "Bride" (Church #1 here). However, Paul writes [my notes],
Ephesians 4:4-6.

Scripture is describing three separate baptisms in the first series of verses in Acts 19:1-6. These events become more dramatic when we realize that they occur about six years after Peter and Paul’s meeting in Jerusalem (Acts 15 = 50 AD), or in about 56 AD. That means that these Kingdom Disciples traveled the countryside for about 25 years with only the “baptism of John.” Then, after hearing the good news about Jesus Christ and His coming, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (second Kingdom Baptism into the "Holy Place" of the Temple). And yet, these disciples had not even heard of Christ nor the Holy Spirit and obviously did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Then, when Paul laid hands upon them (kingdom baptism #3), they all received the gift of the Holy Spirit and began speaking in tongues.

The writer of Acts is quoting Paul here in describing three individual and different baptisms for the "Gospel of the Kingdom." Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc.. This is in full agreement with Christ’s Great Commission commands to the Kingdom Disciples from Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15-16.

The Three Kingdom Baptisms:

1. Of the Father: John’s Baptism (sent by God; John 1:6, Luke 1:76-78) is the baptism of the Father. As it is written,
John 1:33.
2. Of the Son: This second baptism for the Gospel of the Kingdom was given after the disciple repented and confessed his sins to be water baptized by another kingdom disciple. Paul said,
Acts 19:4+5.
3. Of the Holy Spirit: This third for the Gospel of the Kingdom was done by someone like Peter or John who already had the 'gift of the Holy Spirit' from falling at Pentecost (Acts 2):
Acts 19:6.

Now these 'disciples' were shown "The Way" leading into the Holy of Holies where they could then receive the Holy Spirit by the WORK of laying hands. Scripture provides another good example of the three “Gospel of the Kingdom” baptisms in Acts 8:12-17. While our first example (Acts 19:1-6) was about men who knew only of the baptism of John, these people had received the first two baptisms of the kingdom (in water 'and' in the name of Jesus). They had to wait on Peter and John to come and lay hands on them to receive the “gift of the Holy Spirit.” These two examples show that it was possible for a period to pass between these baptisms of the Father (#1), Son (#2) and Holy Spirit (#3). However, Paul declares that there is only “one baptism” for members of Christ’s body. Eph. 4:5.

There is just one baptism for the members of the Body of Christ (Church #2) called to God via Gospel #2 (here). The first chapter to the Corinthians contains examples of Paul baptizing in water, because that two-port-city church had members from both the Kingdom (of Apollos and of Cephas) 'and' Grace Administrations. The Kingdom Epistles describe the three baptisms for the coming Kingdom Administration (diagram = in light blue). However today, the Holy Spirit seals (Eph 1:13-14, 4:30) the member of the Body of Christ (that's us) into 'Christ's Body' (1Cor 12:27) the moment we are obedient to the message of truth, the gospel of our salvation. Paul writes to Gentiles,

Under Paul’s Gospel (Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25, etc.), we are baptized into the Body of Christ on the cross at Calvary the moment we believe. It is through the “power of God” (Rom. 1:16+17) through Paul's Gospel of the Grace of God that 'we' become active participants in His death, burial and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:26-27.

All the words above take us back to the cross; and NOT to the Jordan River. There is no water in these Pauline verses at all. Zero! As members of His body, we died with Him on the cross (Gal. 2:20), were buried in His tomb and raised with Him to be seated in the heavenly places "IN" Christ Jesus. (See Eph. 2:4-7 again). Our lives are now hidden with Christ "IN" God. Col. 3:3.

Paul’s one baptism into Christ's Body is nothing like the three Kingdom baptisms for the "Gospel of the Kingdom," and they are to be understood totally separate from each other. Paul is seen preaching the three baptisms to the Kingdom disciples in Acts 19, because he preached both the Gospel of the Kingdom 'and' the Gospel of the grace of God (read very carefully Paul’s words in Acts 20:24-27).

To apply these things to this CF.com debate: There is one baptism for the members of the Body of Christ today. Those who seek to enter the Kingdom of God on earth as Disciples, in the coming Kingdom Dispensation, shall be baptized three times in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Do you see the four baptisms in the New Testament for the Kingdom Bride and Mystery Body of Christ? Good luck in the debate.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Well as your opening hypothesis is unbiblical, any conclusion drawn on Baptisms will be unbiblical as well. There is only one church which is the body of christ which as Paul said is comprised of Jew and Gentile!

 

[Terral]

Hi Nolidad:

Thank you for writing on the Four Baptisms topic:

Well as your opening hypothesis is unbiblical, any conclusion drawn on Baptisms will be unbiblical as well. There is only one church which is the body of christ which as Paul said is comprised of Jew and Gentile!

Quoting the entire OP to voice your unsupported opinion is throwing effort after foolishness. The OP says:

Greetings to All:

This thread is dedicated to deliberations on the differences between the Four Baptisms of the New Testament connected to the Two Gospels (link) and Two Churches (link) of the New Testament from previous deliberations. There are three baptisms for the "Gospel of the Kingdom" and just one baptism for Paul's "Word of the Cross" gospel message. Read Acts 19:1-6 to realize “preaching the kingdom” (Acts 20:24-27) includes three distinct baptisms of the Father (John’s Baptism; Acts 19:3), and the Son (“name of Jesus Christ;” Acts 19:5), and the Holy Spirit (“laid his hands upon them:” Acts 19:6) from Matthew 28:19.

Here we see two previously-proposed OP's and statements supported by three Scriptural passages from Matthew 28, Acts 19 and 20 that nobody posting in the Dispensationalism Forum has bothered to address. Let's start here:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father [#1] and the Son [#2] and the Holy Spirit [#3]...". Matthew 28:19.

The OP demonstrates how the #1 baptism is John's baptism (Mark 1:1-6) for the "forgiveness of sins" as the first baptism of the "Gospel of the Kingdom." If you would like to try and prove that baptism in the name of the Father "and" the Son "and" the Holy Spirit is anything other than three kingdom baptisms, then go ahead and make your case using Scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15. Good luck, because God's Word shows us the difference in Acts 8:12-17 and again in Acts 19:1-6. Do you need more proof, or am I the only member debating the Four Baptisms topic? Alrighty then,

"It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism [#1].” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus [the "Son" from Mat. 28:19].” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus [#2]. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them [a WORK by a human being], the Holy Spirit came on them [#3], and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying." Acts 19:1-6.

Now, are we going to pretend that we do not speak English? Or can we agree that these "disciples" had ONLY the Baptism of John (#1) without having the baptisms of the Son and Holy Spirit at the top of Acts 19?? These disciple had no idea about the baptism of the Son and Holy Spirit! Paul helped them to obtain baptism #2 (name of the Lord Jesus) and laid hands on them for baptism #3 in the name of the Holy Spirit and exactly as Christ says in Matthew 28:19. You know, debating everyone here at CF.com is easy when the Scriptures agree 100 percent with what is presented in my OP's. :0)

The bottom line is that there are three distinct baptisms (F+S+HS) for the "Gospel of the Kingdom" and just "one baptism" (Eph. 4:5) for the "Gospel of the Grace of God" presented in the Two Gospels OP (here). Guess what? Three Kingdom Baptisms and One Grace Baptism = Four Baptisms in the New Testament.

Blessings,

Terral

 

[nolidad]

The OP demonstrates how the #1 baptism is John's baptism (Mark 1:1-6) for the "forgiveness of sins" as the first baptism of the "Gospel of the Kingdom." If you would like to try and prove that baptism in the name of the Father "and" the Son "and" the Holy Spirit is anything other than three kingdom baptisms, then go ahead and make your case using Scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15. Good luck, because God's Word shows us the difference in Acts 8:12-17 and again in Acts 19:1-6. Do you need more proof, or am I the only member debating the Four Baptisms topic? Alrighty then,

Whjat yo do not realize is that I realize that Jesus came to establish the kingdom promised to Israel! Once Israel rejected that Kingdom- the gospel of the kingdom was no longer preached nor heralded.

Once Pentecost came- all who were and got saved joined one body, the Body of Christ which is one church compriosed of Jew and Gentile as inspired by God in Ephesians.

There are not two brides but one- the Bride of Christ which is the church. That is composed of all believers from Pentecost until the Rapture!

 

[Guojing]

Whjat yo do not realize is that I realize that Jesus came to establish the kingdom promised to Israel! Once Israel rejected that Kingdom- the gospel of the kingdom was no longer preached nor heralded.

Once Pentecost came- all who were and got saved joined one body, the Body of Christ which is one church compriosed of Jew and Gentile as inspired by God in Ephesians.

There are not two brides but one- the Bride of Christ which is the church. That is composed of all believers from Pentecost until the Rapture!

It is written in acts 3 that Peter offered the physical return of Jesus if the nation were to repent of crucifying Jesus and accept him as their messiah.

So your view that the kingdom gospel was no longer preached after cross is not backed by scripture

 

[nolidad]

It is written in acts 3 that Peter offered the physical return of Jesus if the nation were to repent of crucifying Jesus and accept him as their messiah.

So your view that the kingdom gospel was no longer preached after cross is not backed by scripture

You are misunderstanding the passage. Let us look at the direct verses.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Peter was not announcing a near time, but a simple truth that WHEN the times of refreshing come and WHEN the times of restitution come. Only a preconceived bias says it is a reoffering of the kingdom that Jesus ceased preaching and told that that generation would not see the kingdom. So if this was a reoffering either Peter is lying or Jesus was lying.

 

[Terral]

Hi Nolidad:

Thank you for writing on the Four Baptisms topic. Please forgive, typing out a few sentences of unsupported opinion is throwing effort after folly. What we realize is evidence of nothing regarding a correct interpretation of God's Living Word.

What yo do not realize is that I realize that Jesus came to establish the kingdom promised to Israel! Once Israel rejected that Kingdom- the gospel of the kingdom was no longer preached nor heralded.

Right. And, if memory serves, your claim is that the Gospel of the Kingdom is not preached beyond Matthew 12 which is simply ridiculous. Let's actually quote God's Word and allow these readers to decide if the Gospel of the Kingdom is no longer heralded in the Four Gospels as you claim. The great part is that these readers will see the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached by Philip in Acts 8, but they will also see the three baptisms (my notes):

"But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God [gospel of the kingdom] and the name of Jesus Christ [kingdom baptism #2; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; Matt. 28:19*], they were being baptized [Great Commission commands; Mark 16:15-16], men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized [John's baptism in water #1, name of Jesus #2], he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem [Peter, John, James] heard that Samaria had received the word of God [Gospel of the Kingdom], they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He [Holy Spirit; baptism #3] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized [in water #1 "for the forgiveness of sins" Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38] in the name of the Lord Jesus [#2*]. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit [#3]." Acts 8:12-17.

Here again, debating the truth of God's Word is easy when Scripture says exactly what appears in the Opening Post of any topic. At the top you see Philip preaching the "good news about the kingdom of god" that includes baptism (in water for the forgiveness of sins #1) and in the "name of Jesus [#2]," which is the "name of the Son" from Matthew 28:19. None of these people received the Holy Spirit, because Philip "simply" baptized them in water and in the name of the Lord Jesus. Peter and John went and laid hands on them, so they received the third and final baptism of the Holy Spirit [#3].

The bottom line here is that God's Word here in Acts 8 refutes the false notion that the gospel of the kingdom was no longer preached after Matthew 12!! Do you need more evidence? Let's revisit the truth of God's Word at the top of Acts 19:

"It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism [#1].” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance [Mark 1:4; "for the forgiveness of sins"], telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus ["name of the Son" Matt. 28:19].” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus [#2]. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them [#3], and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying." Acts 19:1-6.

Now, for those actually following along, here we are in Acts 19, that is about 25 years after Pentecost, and Paul comes upon "disciples" who have only the baptism of John (#1). They are called "disciples" (#3101, "A "disciple" was not only a pupil, but an adherent; hence they are spoken of as imitators of their teacher") because they had already received John's baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4). This is the same "baptism" for the forgiveness of sins that Peter preached in Acts 2:38 that is part of the "Gospel of the Kingdom." Paul then helped these disciples receive baptism #2 "in the name of the Son/Lord Jesus" to then lay hands upon them for the Holy Spirit (#3).

Again, God's Word clearly disproves the false notion that the Gospel of the Kingdom was no longer preached after Matthew 12. Paul is clearly "preaching the kingdom" (Acts 20:25) right here in Acts 19 to these "disciples" that only had the baptism of John as baptism #1. The Opening Post of this thread clearly details these things, but members choose to believe whatever they want to believe. Paul will make reference to these events in the next chapter, saying,

"But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God [#2 in my OP here*]. And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom [#1*, like with the "disciples" from Acts 19:1-6], will no longer see my face. Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men [me too]. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God." Acts 20:24-27.

Paul is clearly "preaching the kingdom" (Gospel of the Kingdom) in Acts 19 like Philip in Acts 8 and Peter in Acts 2 long after Matthew 12. Paul is describing the "whole purpose of God" that includes God calling disciples to the Kingdom Bride (Church #1 from my OP here*) "and" brethren to the Body of Christ (#2*) representing Christ's "water" (kingdom for bride) ministry and Christ's "blood" (grace for mystery body) ministry from 1John 5:6-8.

Once Pentecost came- all who were and got saved joined one body, the Body of Christ which is one church compriosed of Jew and Gentile as inspired by God in Ephesians.

No. God's Word provides multiple accounts where Peter (Acts 2), Philip (Acts 8) and Paul (Acts 19) are all "preaching the kingdom" that includes three distinct baptisms in the name of the Father (John's) and the Son (name of the Lord Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (laying of hands).

There are not two brides but one- the Bride of Christ which is the church. That is composed of all believers from Pentecost until the Rapture!

No. I challenge you to quote a single verse where Paul makes reference to our "His body" Church (Col. 1:24), or the "Body of Christ" (Eph. 4:12) as the "bride." Good luck! Paul never uses the term nymphe (#3565) even once in any of his Epistles to the Gentiles.

Blessings,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Mathetes:

Thank you for writing. The evidence shows Mathetes quoting nothing from the OP, nothing from any member, and attempting to hijack this Four Baptisms Topic to SomeWhereElseVille. Very well. Let's quote the substance of your remarks:

One was forbidden to be preached to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5) [snip] But carry on, I am moving on.

That sounds like a great idea since quoting nothing from the OP, and quoting no participating members, and writing ten miles of off-topic commentary, makes a case for nothing. An example of how to "quote >>" a member to provide clarifying supported statements is presented here, if you ever want to actually debate the OP topic.

Blessings,

Terral

 

[nolidad]

Right. And, if memory serves, your claim is that the Gospel of the Kingdom is not preached beyond Matthew 12 which is simply ridiculous. Let's actually quote God's Word and allow these readers to decide if the Gospel of the Kingdom is no longer heralded in the Four Gospels as you claim. The great part is that these readers will see the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached by Philip in Acts 8, but they will also see the three baptisms (my notes):

But what Philip preached is the gospel of the kingdom as Jesus and the apostles preached prior to the blasphemy of the Spirit in Matthew 12. And also Philip was preaching in Samaria not Israel proper- that is very important to know!

Here again, debating the truth of God's Word is easy when Scripture says exactly what appears in the Opening Post of any topic. At the top you see Philip preaching the "good news about the kingdom of god" that includes baptism (in water for the forgiveness of sins #1) and in the "name of Jesus [#2]," which is the "name of the Son" from Matthew 28:19. None of these people received the Holy Spirit, because Philip "simply" baptized them in water and in the name of the Lord Jesus. Peter and John went and laid hands on them, so they received the third and final baptism of the Holy Spirit [#3].

The bottom line here is that God's Word here in Acts 8 refutes the false notion that the gospel of the kingdom was no longer preached after Matthew 12!! Do you need more evidence? Let's revisit the truth of God's Word at the top of Acts 19:

And again you fail to recognize that Philip was in Samaria and that they were not true Israelites and worshipped not at Temple Mount. These are important distinctions all need to know! Jesus withdrew the offer of the kingdom to that generation of Israel. Why would he have them preach the kingdom again?
Just because the word kingdom appears, does not necessitate it means the same gospel preached by John the Baptist, Jesus and the 70!

And Being baptized in Jesus name was not any part of teh kingdom gospel that was preached till Matt. 12.

Paul is clearly "preaching the kingdom" (Gospel of the Kingdom) in Acts 19 like Philip in Acts 8 and Peter in Acts 2 long after Matthew 12. Paul is describing the "whole purpose of God" that includes God calling disciples to the Kingdom Bride (Church #1 from my OP here*) "and" brethren to the Body of Christ (#2*) representing Christ's "water" (kingdom for bride) ministry and Christ's "blood" (grace for mystery body) ministry from 1John 5:6-8.

Well you can quote your OP all you wish, but I will stay with SCripture.

Ephesians 2:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

In Christ the two are made ONE! There is only one bride and one church!

As for Acts 19, Paul was speaking ot them of Jesus and the kingdom, but was not promising Jews a soon coming kingdom! He was pleading with them to enter the body of Christ. Anyone who accepts Christ is poart of one body, one bride, one church!

Ephesians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Tell me, do you believe that Jews should still be preached the gospel of the kingdom now or not? If not why not?

 

[Guojing]

You are misunderstanding the passage. Let us look at the direct verses.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Peter was not announcing a near time, but a simple truth that WHEN the times of refreshing come and WHEN the times of restitution come. Only a preconceived bias says it is a reoffering of the kingdom that Jesus ceased preaching and told that that generation would not see the kingdom. So if this was a reoffering either Peter is lying or Jesus was lying.

you are ignoring the literal meaning of vs20.

As for your last paragraph, recall what was the last question the 11 asked Jesus before he ascended to heaven? Acts 1 recorded

"Are you at this time, going to restore the Kingdom to Israel?

Notice Jesus did not reply them with "Don't be silly and ask that stupid question. Didn't I already tell you in the 4 Gospels that my kingdom is

1. not of this world? John 18:36
2. is already among you? Luke 17:21

So your understanding of what Jesus said in Luke 17 and John 18 does not gel with how Jesus and the 11 understood it.

 

[nolidad]

you are ignoring the literal meaning of vs20.

As for your last paragraph, recall what was the last question the 11 asked Jesus before he ascended to heaven? Acts 1 recorded

"Are you at this time, going to restore the Kingdom to Israel?

Notice Jesus did not reply them with "Don't be silly and ask that stupid question. Didn't I already tell you in the 4 Gospels that my kingdom is

1. not of this world? John 18:36
2. is already among you? Luke 17:21

So your understanding of what Jesus said in Luke 17 and John 18 does not gel with how Jesus and the 11 understood it.

Sorry, but you have failed to be correct.

The literal meaning of vse. 20 is found in verse 21!

Acts 3:
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

God will send Jesus back when the time of restitution takes place.

A half truth is a whole lie!

As for Acts 1?

Jesus simply said it is not for the 11 to know the time when the Father will restore the kingdom. but instead they were to stat in Jerusalem and spread globally sharing the good news!

What we have in teh bible is the Kingdom of 1,000 years that Israel will rule th eearth under Christ and the Church.

And the full kingdom which was a mystery in the old and revealed in the new! Many scholars write that we are living in the mystery form of the kingdom that Jesus expounded in the parables ( to keep the knowledge away from the nation of Israel) Which is God is now drawing into th ekingdom Jews and Gentiles equally! The Law has been removed and Gentiles can now approach God just as Jews could without the Law!

 

[Guojing]

Sorry, but you have failed to be correct.

The literal meaning of vse. 20 is found in verse 21!

Acts 3:
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

God will send Jesus back when the time of restitution takes place.

A half truth is a whole lie!

As for Acts 1?

Jesus simply said it is not for the 11 to know the time when the Father will restore the kingdom. but instead they were to stat in Jerusalem and spread globally sharing the good news!

What we have in teh bible is the Kingdom of 1,000 years that Israel will rule th eearth under Christ and the Church.

And the full kingdom which was a mystery in the old and revealed in the new! Many scholars write that we are living in the mystery form of the kingdom that Jesus expounded in the parables ( to keep the knowledge away from the nation of Israel) Which is God is now drawing into th ekingdom Jews and Gentiles equally! The Law has been removed and Gentiles can now approach God just as Jews could without the Law!

if the nation did accept Jesus as their messiah in acts 3, he would have returned to set up the promised kingdom.

We now know that they did not, but that does not mean they did not have the free will to make that choice

so my point was that neither Peter Nor Jesus was lying

 

[nolidad]

if the nation did accept Jesus as their messiah in acts 3, he would have returned to set up the promised kingdom.

We now know that they did not, but that does not mean they did not have the free will to make that choice

so my point was that neither Peter Nor Jesus was lying

Then Jesus lied in te gospels when He said the kingdom was removed from that generation.

Matt. 12 shows that, Matt. 21 shows that and Mt. 23 showes that that genersation of Israel lost their reward. So doesn't the portion of the Olivet discourse in Luke. That is a prophesu and not a maybe.

 

[Guojing]

Then Jesus lied in te gospels when He said the kingdom was removed from that generation.

Matt. 12 shows that, Matt. 21 shows that and Mt. 23 showes that that genersation of Israel lost their reward. So doesn't the portion of the Olivet discourse in Luke. That is a prophesu and not a maybe.

just because Jesus was omniscient and know the future, it does not mean it is predetermined already. We still have a legitimate choice to make.

That explains why the kingdom was still being offered in acts and why Jesus replied to their last question in acts the way he did.

 

[nolidad]

just because Jesus was omniscient and know the future, it does not mean it is predetermined already. We still have a legitimate choice to make.

That explains why the kingdom was still being offered in acts and why Jesus replied to their last question in acts the way he did.

Jesus withdrew the kingdom to that generation to Israel. He is not going to reoffer it to the same generation three years later! Think on that!

And if Jesus knows what is going to happen- Him being God the Son, then it is predetermined, for he knows what will and will not take place! There are no surprises to him!

And we cannot choose HIm until God the Father drags us to Jesus!

In our natural state we will never choose Jesus nor want to!