Three Earth Ages

[n2thelight]

Just something I wanted too share.....


Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Does it say when the beginning was? No, it simply says, in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Credible science tells us the earth is billions of years old.

Genesis 1:2
"And the earth was (1961) without form (8414), and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Between these two verses we have the passing of a very large amount of time. In verse one we are told God created the heaven and the earth. In verse two we are told the earth was without form, void and darkness upon the face of the deep.

We have our first mistranslation. This is where you need a Strong’s Concordance. We are going to look at the word “was” which is number 1961 in the Strong’s. If you click on 1961, it will open another web browser and take you to the word with its meanings. Please take note for the rest of this study.

As you will see, the word “was” should have been translated “became”. Some KJV Bibles actually have a note in the margin telling you this fact. The change in words here alters the meaning tremendously! God didn’t create the earth void and without form, it BECAME that way. “Was” implies that God created the earth void, which we know is not the case. We will document that shortly. “Became” indicates that some event happened (we will document exactly what happened in a future study) that led to the earth becoming void and without form. We will continue to document this fact throughout this study.

We have another word we need to take note of, “without form”. Which is Hebrew word 8414 and it means, "desolation." Remember this, you will need it later. So properly translated, we have a world that "became a desolation." Let’s continue in our study…

Isaiah 45:18
"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (8414), he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."

As you can see from this account in Isaiah, God himself declares that he created the earth NOT in vain, NOT formless and NOT void but formed the earth to be inhabited. This is the same word from Genesis, "without form". It should becoming clearer to you by now that something happened... God didn’t create the world as some formless mess. He created a beautiful place, meant to be inhabited.

This is why using a Concordance with your studies is so important! If you did not know to use a Concordance you would be very confused by the contradiction in these two accounts from Genesis and Isaiah. God’s Word has no contradictions, it’s only us not properly understanding our Father’s Word.

Does the Bible have more to say about this topic? You bet!

II Peter 3:3
"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,"

In these last days we hear a lot of scoffers don’t we? We see twisted morality, right is now wrong and wrong is now right, men caught up with their own lusts and not caring who they may harm by their actions. The bailout fiasco in the United States and throughout the world for that matter should tip you off to this fact alone.

II Peter 3:4
"And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

There is no God, things have been the same since the beginning, come on you crazy Christians, wake up, they tell you. We are quickly learning that things have not been the same since the beginning. What’s God have to say about that?

II Peter 3:5
"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

What? World of old? What is God trying to tell us here?

II Peter 3:6
"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

The world that then was… There was an age before this one we presently live in. Same old earth, different age. Surely this is quite a bit of documentation on this subject to get you to think. But wait! You’re probably thinking this is Noah’s flood which would be incorrect. The world didn’t perish in Noah’s flood. At the very least Noah his family and all aboard the ark survived that flood. We will document this fact further as we continue in our study.

II Peter 3:7
"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

God defines two separate times in these last two verses. "The world that then was" from verse six and "the heavens and earth which are now" in verse seven. He explains, He destroyed that old earth age with a major flood, a flood of the whole earth. In the present age we currently live in, judgment will be of fire not water.

Before we leave II Peter, let’s take a look at one more verse.

II Peter 3:13
"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

A new heaven and earth from our time frame would put us in a third age, which is the final age. II Corinthians 12:2 mentions this third heaven. God destroyed that first earth and heaven age and He will destroy this age or dispensation of time as well. The earth will then be rejuvenated.

In Jeremiah chapter four, we see God talking to the nation of Israel. He is upset with them for not following His direction, but wandering after the ways of the world. He explains to them that He destroyed the previous age and He will do it again if they will not come back into His Word! Let’s hear it from God.

Jeremiah 4:22
"For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

Sottish means stupid. This sounds just like today, does it not? It’s so hard for people to do what is right, but very easy for them to accomplish evil deeds.

Jeremiah 4:23
"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form (8414), and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Here God is describing what He did to that first earth and heaven age. We also have that word again, 8414. I asked you to remember it, if you didn’t just click the link. He didn’t create the earth a "desolation" as the word describes, it "became" that way.

Jeremiah 4:24
"I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

Science tells us the continents used to be one large mass of land, but at some point in time they shifted away. Could this be what God is telling us?

​

If you doubt the continents were at one time joined then you need to visit, The Ashfall Fossil Bed State Historic Park in Nebraska. They have some fascinating fossils, some of which include: camels, rhinoceroses, zebras and alligators among other types of creatures that once walked the earth in this area. I shouldn’t have to tell you zebras are not native to the United States and you’re not going to spot one, unless of course you visit the zoo!

Jeremiah 4:25
"I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

God is telling us he destroyed everything upon the earth. This was NOT Noah’s flood folks. Noah and all aboard the ark survived for sure, this is our second witness to II Peter 3. Here, God says every man was gone. He explains further by telling us even the birds were removed. If you recall from Noah’s flood, Noah sent out a dove which returned to him an olive branch. We are definitely NOT talking about Noah’s flood here.

Jeremiah 4:26
"I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger."

There were even cities during that time period, all of which were destroyed. Including the tree’s and plants of the earth (Why was it destroyed? We will discuss this in a study in the not to distant future)…

In closing, I hope it has become apparent to you that the earth is not merely 6,000 years old, but that it is billions of years old as science tells us. Only by truly studying God’s Word can we come to understand it and rule out all of the misconceptions and misunderstandings that we have been taught over the years. Don’t listen to man, listen to God and His Word. The next time someone questions your beliefs by stating you think the earth is only 6,000 years old, you can explain and show them that the "world is of old" and God declares it!

The World That Then Was – The Age of the Earth - World Events and the Bible – Study, News & End Times Prophecy

 

[mark kennedy]

Just something I wanted too share.....


Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Does it say when the beginning was? No, it simply says, in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Credible science tells us the earth is billions of years old.

No, all it tells us about the creation of the heavens and the earth is that it was 'In the beginning'. The creation of life (Gen. 1:21) and the creation of man (Gen. 1:27) was during creation week that starts in Genesis 1:3. That can be dated about 6,000 years ago based on the genealogies.

Between these two verses we have the passing of a very large amount of time. In verse one we are told God created the heaven and the earth. In verse two we are told the earth was without form, void and darkness upon the face of the deep.

We have our first mistranslation. This is where you need a Strong’s Concordance. We are going to look at the word “was” which is number 1961 in the Strong’s. If you click on 1961, it will open another web browser and take you to the word with its meanings. Please take note for the rest of this study.

As you will see, the word “was” should have been translated “became”. Some KJV Bibles actually have a note in the margin telling you this fact. The change in words here alters the meaning tremendously! God didn’t create the earth void and without form, it BECAME that way. “Was” implies that God created the earth void, which we know is not the case. We will document that shortly. “Became” indicates that some event happened (we will document exactly what happened in a future study) that led to the earth becoming void and without form. We will continue to document this fact throughout this study.

The word is translated properly, to get to the kind of exegetical treatment you're talking about requires a good deal more work.

(Strong's H1961 - הָיָה hayah) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out. In can be translated ‘was’ (Gen. 1:2), ‘be’ (Gen. 1:3), ‘shall be’ (Gen. 1:29).

We have another word we need to take note of, “without form”. Which is Hebrew word 8414 and it means, "desolation." Remember this, you will need it later. So properly translated, we have a world that "became a desolation." Let’s continue in our study…

Isaiah 45:18
"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (8414), he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."

(Strong's H8414 - תֹּהוּ tohuw) 'formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness'. In Genesis 1:2 is simply means formless. The primeval earth was formless, the word can also be used figuratively of idols which are 'empty' or 'unreal', the idea being false or useless gods. It can also be used to speak of a 'wasteland or a wilderness' or a 'place of chaos' or 'vanity'.

As you can see from this account in Isaiah, God himself declares that he created the earth NOT in vain, NOT formless and NOT void but formed the earth to be inhabited. This is the same word from Genesis, "without form". It should becoming clearer to you by now that something happened... God didn’t create the world as some formless mess. He created a beautiful place, meant to be inhabited.

That's exactly what it says, it says that the earth was created 'without form', even though God always intended for it to be inhabited. Before life was created on the earth, the globe we inhabit had to be reformed as is described during creation week.

This is why using a Concordance with your studies is so important! If you did not know to use a Concordance you would be very confused by the contradiction in these two accounts from Genesis and Isaiah. God’s Word has no contradictions, it’s only us not properly understanding our Father’s Word.

Agreed. You might try Blue Letter Bible, it's a far better developed set of study tools then John Hurt's site even though John Hurt's stuff is very good.

I'm going to stop there, I just wanted to clarify those terms before I proceed with the rest of the post. Keep studying.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[n2thelight]

@ Mark

So are you saying the earth is only 6000 years old?

 

[SkyWriting]

Just something I wanted too share.....


Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Does it say when the beginning was? No, it simply says, in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Credible science tells us the earth is billions of years old.

When Jesus created wine, science might draw any number of conclusions.

Science proves nothing about the past. It can only predict future events.
People can test a theory about the past by recreating the event.
If the re-tested event shows the same results, then the theory
is said to be confirmed a second time. The only "valid" theories
are those that have been retested 100's of times.

The age of the earth is not one of those things that can be retested
100's of times. Only documented events can be recreated.

Science can only tell us about past events that are documented
so they can be retested. That is the limit of the scientific method.

 

[mark kennedy]

@ Mark

So are you saying the earth is only 6000 years old?

No, I'm saying the age of the earth in the Genesis 1 account of creation is 'in the beginning', it makes no reference to when that happened. The creation of life (Gen 1:21) and man (Gen 1:27) is another matter.

When Jesus created wine, science might draw any number of conclusions.

Science proves nothing about the past. It can only predict future events.
People can test a theory about the past by recreating the event.
If the re-tested event shows the same results, then the theory
is said to be confirmed a second time. The only "valid" theories
are those that have been retested 100's of times.

The age of the earth is not one of those things that can be retested
100's of times. Only documented events can be recreated.

Science can only tell us about past events that are documented
so they can be retested. That is the limit of the scientific method.

Science is more properly called, natural science, since it is focused on naturally occurring phenomenon. Science is ill-suited to investigate a miracle even though it can observe and demonstrate some overlapping issues. I've always thought, and see no reason to doubt, that the age of the earth is irrelevant to the testimony of Scripture regarding original creation.

 

[n2thelight]

Mark

No, I'm saying the age of the earth in the Genesis 1 account of creation is 'in the beginning', it makes no reference to when that happened. The creation of life (Gen 1:21) and man (Gen 1:27) is another matter.

That's what I said.....God destroyed the earth because of satan's rebellion,you can read about it in Peter,as a matter of fact Peter will give us all 3 ages

II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

That world age or cosmos that existed in that ancient time of the past, and everything that was a part of it was destroyed completely. All life on it was completely done away with. God destroyed it completely and it happened at Satan's overthrow. Many people believe that this flood was the flood of Noah's day, however, the flood of Noah's day did not destroy this world age, life from before that flood carried right over into the dispensation that followed one year later, after the waters had subsided.

II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

 

[mark kennedy]

That's what I said.....God destroyed the earth because of satan's rebellion,you can read about it in Peter,as a matter of fact Peter will give us all 3 ages

II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

That world age or cosmos that existed in that ancient time of the past, and everything that was a part of it was destroyed completely. All life on it was completely done away with. God destroyed it completely and it happened at Satan's overthrow. Many people believe that this flood was the flood of Noah's day, however, the flood of Noah's day did not destroy this world age, life from before that flood carried right over into the dispensation that followed one year later, after the waters had subsided.

II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Those verses are speaking of the Flood. I'm talking about the primordial earth, your describing something that came to be known as Catastrophism and it's not Creationism.

 

[Calminian]

Those verses are speaking of the Flood. I'm talking about the primordial earth, your describing something that came to be known as Catastrophism and it's not Creationism.

And also one needs to consider than the ancient idea of earth, was really that of dry land, since that's how God defined it. Genesis 1:2 may just be stating that the land we now walk on, in the beginning was unformed. It wasn't yet hardened and didn't yet have a solid foundation.

Planet earth, a land/sea unit, I don't think was in the ancient biblical writer's mind.

 

[mark kennedy]

And also one needs to consider than the ancient idea of earth, was really that of dry land, since that's how God defined it. Genesis 1:2 may just be stating that the land we now walk on, in the beginning was unformed. It wasn't yet hardened and didn't yet have a solid foundation.

Planet earth, a land/sea unit, I don't think was in the ancient biblical writer's mind.

Not unformed, just covered in water and a thick mesh of clouds. That's one of the features of creation that the land was separated from the water.

 

[Calminian]

Not unformed, just covered in water and a thick mesh of clouds. That's one of the features of creation that the land was separated from the water.

I actually don't hold that view anymore. When i read that earth is formless and void, and tend to look at the hebrew term erets, and read it as the land was formless and void. Land can be covered in water, but still solid, still have form. Perhaps the Holy Spirit was telling us the land was not yet solid, in the beginning, until day 3 came along.

 

[n2thelight]

Those verses are speaking of the Flood. I'm talking about the primordial earth, your describing something that came to be known as Catastrophism and it's not Creationism.

Are you referring to Noah's flood,if so ,Im not......

 

[n2thelight]

The earth was created perfect,God destroyed it,that's how it became void and without form....

V5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
V6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The word "perished" is Strong's 622 and means apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively.

We were on the earth in our spiritual bodies in the first earth age with the dinosaurs. Because of the rebellion of Satan God destroyed fully that earth age with a flood. This is not talking about Noah's flood which happened in this earth age because it was not destroyed fully.

What Im talking about is when the continents split up,to become as they are now....

Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and, lo it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Jeremiah 4:24; "I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

Jeremiah 4:25; "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Did you get that? No man, no animals, and not even the birds were left alive. The earth was covered with water, and life could not exist. There was no boat floating around on the surface, for the span of time could have been for thousands of years, or a much greater time.

Jeremiah 4:26; "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

In this flood there wasn't a tree or a blade of grass left with life in it. However, what about these "cities" that once existed? Yes there were cities at that time, and God's anger and fury against Satan, and the third of God's children that followed Satan, caused God to destroy that entire earth age, and all that was part of it.

That is what God meant in Hebrews 11:7 when He said, "I shook her once and know I'll shake her again." The only thing that will be left standing then, is that which is unshakeable, and it will only be those who have repented, and have Jesus Christ in their heart. They are those souls that were sealed in their minds, and did not bow to the Antichrist, his system, or take his name, nor his number.

Jeremiah 4:27; "For thus hath the Lord said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."

God allowed the waters of the first earth age to recede, and from it came a condition whereby we can live in this second earth age. Each soul, or God's child, will pass through this flesh earth age once, and we have the choice to chose either light or darkness; Jesus Christ or Satan. When God created each soul and gave it free will, He cannot force that soul to love Him. You cannot buy love, or it will be a false love. God is looking for your tender love; from within your free soul. It is your choice.

 

[Calminian]

The earth was created perfect,God destroyed it,that's how it became void and without form....

V5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
V6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The word "perished" is Strong's 622 and means apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively.

But you have have overlooked that the hebrew word for erets is land (not planet earth, as gap theorists contend). "And God called the dry land, earth." (Gen. 1:10) This passage is definitely speaking of Noah's flood, not a theoretical flood that took place between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2.

We were on the earth in our spiritual bodies in the first earth age with the dinosaurs. Because of the rebellion of Satan God destroyed fully that earth age with a flood. This is not talking about Noah's flood which happened in this earth age because it was not destroyed fully.

One of the other reasons I moved away from the gap theory (I used to be a gapper) is this issue of Satan falling long before Adam in the Garden of Eden. The problem is, the Bible clearly states both in Genesis 3 and Ezekiel 28 that Satan's fall was in the Garden of Eden, not millions of years before. Ezekiel 28 makes it clear he was at one time still good and un-fallen in "Eden, the garden of God." Take a look for yourself.

Jeremiah 4:25; "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Did you get that? No man, no animals, and not even the birds were left alive. The earth was covered with water, and life could not exist. There was no boat floating around on the surface, for the span of time could have been for thousands of years, or a much greater time.

But did you know that the word there for man is actually adam in the hebrew? Adam is what mankind is called in the Bible, since all come from Adam. This is very common. Israel, for instance, is generally referring to those that descended from Jacob. But we are all admites, because we have all come from him. Thus the general word for mankind is adam.

For that reason, that passage you quote above could not possibly be speaking about a pre-adamic race, which was destroyed before Adam existed. The "man" in that passage is referring specifically to the descendants of Adam. There's no possible way around it.

Brother, I was a gapper for many years. It solves some theological problems, but creates many more. It's an attempt to reconcile the Bible with modern ideas about deep time, while also preserving some important doctrines regarding sin and death. Unfortunately it requires hermeneutical backflips that just aren't feasible. On the surface, it sounds really cool, but once you dive into it, the problems abound.

 

[mark kennedy]

But you have have overlooked that the hebrew word for erets is land (not planet earth, as gap theorists contend). "And God called the dry land, earth." (Gen. 1:10) This passage is definitely speaking of Noah's flood, not a theoretical flood that took place between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2.

That's pretty straight forward and obvious. (H776 אֶרֶץ 'erets)

I'm not sure the point that was being made with apollymi G622, but I went ahead and did a word search anyway.

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, (apollymi G622) though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1Pe 1:7)

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished (apollymi G622) (2 Pe 3:6)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, (apollymi G622) but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pe 3:9)​

One of the other reasons I moved away from the gap theory (I used to be a gapper) is this issue of Satan falling long before Adam in the Garden of Eden. The problem is, the Bible clearly states both in Genesis 3 and Ezekiel 28 that Satan's fall was in the Garden of Eden, not millions of years before. Ezekiel 28 makes it clear he was at one time still good and un-fallen in "Eden, the garden of God." Take a look for yourself.

That's a new one on me but Satan was in open rebellion previous to the temptation in Eden. When God created life on earth the angels were already created, they even celebrated the event. There is really no way of being sure when or how the heavenly rebellion started but it was definitely before the temptation in Eden.

But did you know that the word there for man is actually adam in the hebrew? Adam is what mankind is called in the Bible, since all come from Adam. This is very common. Israel, for instance, is generally referring to those that descended from Jacob. But we are all admites, because we have all come from him. Thus the general word for mankind is adam.

Adam's name is used to speak of humanity for the same reason that Israel is called by their father's name, God sometimes refers to them as Jacob as well. In the New Testament Adam is never used to speak of humanity:

Adam: "the red earth", the first man, the parent of the whole human family.

• Adam, (Ἀδάμ G76) which was the son of God. (Luke 3:38)
• Nevertheless death reigned from Adam (Ἀδάμ G76) to Moses (Rom 5:14)
• For as in Adam (Ἀδάμ G76) all die (1Co 15:22)
• The first man Adam (Ἀδάμ G76) was made a living soul (1Co 15:45)
• For Adam (Ἀδάμ G76) was first formed, then Eve (1Ti 2:13)
• And Adam (Ἀδάμ G76) was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1Ti 2:14)
• And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, (Ἀδάμ G76) (Jude 1:14)

For that reason, that passage you quote above could not possibly be speaking about a pre-adamic race, which was destroyed before Adam existed. The "man" in that passage is referring specifically to the descendants of Adam. There's no possible way around it.

That's right, that's why 'Adam' is used to speak of humanity, Adam was our first parent.

Brother, I was a gapper for many years. It solves some theological problems, but creates many more. It's an attempt to reconcile the Bible with modern ideas about deep time, while also preserving some important doctrines regarding sin and death. Unfortunately it requires hermeneutical backflips that just aren't feasible. On the surface, it sounds really cool, but once you dive into it, the problems abound.

I don't know what 'Gap theory' is exactly but Satan's rebellion was obviously started before the creation of Adam. It has little, if any, bearing on Genesis 1 but it becomes significant in Genesis 3. There is nothing to support or refute the concept that Satan's rebellion started around the time Adam was tempted. It's an interesting thought but you're going to have to do some major expositions to support a concept like that and in the end, it's going to be speculative no matter what you do.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Calminian]

...but Satan's rebellion was obviously started before the creation of Adam....

I disagree just on this one point. Satan's rebellion was at the moment he tempted Eve. Look at the fall of Satan as described in Ezekiel. The text starts out talking about the King of Tyre, but then it becomes obvious God is rebuking the being who incited the King.

Ezek. 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, “Thus says the Lord GOD:
‘You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”[bless and do not curse]’[bless and do not curse]”​

Also, take a look at the curse in Genesis 3. There was a symbolic curse on the snake, but it's clear the real being being curse was Satan who incited the snake. It was in Genesis 3 God determined to crush him through the Messiah.

Gen. 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.” ​

If in six days God created the heavens earth and sea and all that is in them, then angels were created during that same week. If Satan is still described as being good, while in Eden, the Garden of God, then his fall must have come after the creation of Eden. I don't see any way around it.

 

[mark kennedy]

I disagree just on this one point. Satan's rebellion was at the moment he tempted Eve. Look at the fall of Satan as described in Ezekiel. The text starts out talking about the King of Tyre, but then it becomes obvious God is rebuking the being who incited the King.

I'm aware that there is an overlapping meaning in this passage, it's pretty common in Hebrew prophecy.

Also, take a look at the curse in Genesis 3. There was a symbolic curse on the snake, but it's clear the real being being curse was Satan who incited the snake. It was in Genesis 3 God determined to crush him through the Messiah.

Serpent is a proper name here, obviously it's the Devil. I see the prophetic significance of the heal that crushes his head, not problem there.

If in six days God created the heavens earth and sea and all that is in them, then angels were created during that same week. If Satan is still described as being good, while in Eden, the Garden of God, then his fall must have come after the creation of Eden. I don't see any way around it.

The creation being described as 'very good', the finished creation in all it's vast array is the earth and life on earth in that context. I don't see anything that warrants including Satan as part of the 'very good' creation or that somehow it must of been before his rebellion started. That's pure undiluted speculation.

 

[Calminian]

...The creation being described as 'very good', the finished creation in all it's vast array is the earth and life on earth in that context. I don't see anything that warrants including Satan as part of the 'very good' creation or that somehow it must of been before his rebellion started. That's pure undiluted speculation.

The speculation is about the angels of heaven existing before heaven was created. Angels are never directly taught about. They are always mentioned in passing, but to assume they existed before heaven which is their domain and before light which is one of their attributes is definitely pure undiluted speculation.

The biblical evidence, however, is overwhelming. We see Satan described as a good perfect being while in the Garden of Eden in Ezekiel. We see Satan being cursed in Genesis 3, along with Adam and Eve and the entire creation. Angelic preexistence is no where is scripture and contradicts scripture.

Moses tells us that God created the heavens and all that is in them within the 6 days (Ex. 20:11). That would include the clouds of heaven, the luminaries of heaven, and the angels of heaven. Any speculation beyond that goes beyond what is written, and actually contradicts it.

 

[mark kennedy]

The speculation is about the angels of heaven existing before heaven was created. Angels are never directly taught about. They are always mentioned in passing, but to assume they existed before heaven which is their domain and before light which is one of their attributes is definitely pure undiluted speculation.

Not entirely, you see, creation is transcendent. One of the associated principles is a consistent Biblical hermeneutic by which God not only creates originally but redeems and manifests throughout redemptive history. That is not confined to a Christian theology but also has great import from our Hebrew cousins, Judaism puts great emphasis on the 'light' of God's glory.

The biblical evidence, however, is overwhelming. We see Satan described as a good perfect being while in the Garden of Eden in Ezekiel. We see Satan being cursed in Genesis 3, along with Adam and Eve and the entire creation. Angelic preexistence is no where is scripture and contradicts scripture.

The Biblical evidence for Satan and his angels is marginal at best, either way it's speculative. Satan, aka the Serpent, facilitates the temptation just as he did at the temptation of Christ but what Satan's real history is remains a mystery. What we do know for sure is that Jesus overcame the temptation by quoting from the Law and what Adam disobeyed was the only law in Eden.

Moses tells us that God created the heavens and all that is in them within the 6 days (Ex. 20:11). That would include the clouds of heaven, the luminaries of heaven, and the angels of heaven. Any speculation beyond that goes beyond what is written, and actually contradicts it.

There are rules to my way of doing an exposition, you cannot go beyond what is written. What I am telling you about creation pertains explicitly to what is revealed in the creation account. I'm an evangelical so my thinking must begin and end with the Scriptures and what you are saying doesn't make the full circle. The approach follows a simple pattern; text, context, transcendence.

We know that God created the heavens and the earth before creation week actually started, all we know about when is that it was 'in the beginning'. Looking closely at the words used to describe creation acts of God we can discern explicit meanings that are anything but speculative as I have elaborated on often.

The 'light' of creation isn't the sun, the Scriptures are crafted in such a way, that the differences are evident and obvious. The context of Genesis puts God's work after creation on a path that leads to redemptive history focusing on Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The 'bara' creation isn't mentioned again in connection to redemption until Israel is falling under judgment in the 8th century BCE.

Here's my point, when it comes to essential doctrine I don't speculate. I'm talking about redemptive history and while speculation about Satan's rebellion is permissible it's a tangent and lacks any definitive Biblical proof.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Calminian]

...We know that God created the heavens and the earth before creation week actually started,....

We know for certain that the heavens, earth and sea and all that is in them were made during creation week.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them....​

The case is closed as far as that's concerned.

All that are in the heavens were made during creation week.
Angels are in the heavens.
Therefore, Angels were made during creation week.

Brother, I don't see a way around that.

And while you're right that it's not an essential doctrine for salvation, it can still have eternal consequences. Our kids (the next generation) are leaving church in record numbers, and I believe this is directly related to the church's concessions on Genesis. We certainly can believe the gospel while rejecting Genesis, but the next generation is looking at the foundation we're presenting and saying "no thank you." They know we don't believe everything in the Bible, so why should they believe anything in it? The church is slowly becoming irrelevant, and I believe there's a correlation between that and our compromise on Genesis. Belief in genesis is not essential to salvation, but it is essential to a healthy relevant church.

 

[mark kennedy]

We know for certain that the heavens, earth and sea and all that is in them were made during creation week.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them....​

The case is closed as far as that's concerned.

A different word is used in Genesis 1:1 then the one used in Exodus 20:11. Moses uses bara in Genesis 1:1; 21; 27 (Strong's H1254 - bara'). He uses asah (Strong's H6213 - `asah) in Exodus 20:11 as he uses asah in Genesis 1:7, 11, 12, 16 and 25.

God created the heavens and the earth 'bara' in Genesis 1:1, God made the heavens and the earth suitable for life then creates life (Gen 1:21) and man (Gen 1:27) in the sense of bara.

CREATE: bara' (baw-raw) "to create, make." This verb is of profound theological significance, since it has only God as its subject. Only God can "create" in the sense implied by bara'. The verb expresses creation out of nothing, an idea seen clearly in passages having to do with creation on a cosmic scale: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen. 1:1; cf. Gen. 2:3; Isa. 40:26; 42:5). All other verbs for "creating" allow a much broader range of meaning; they have both divine and human subjects, and are used in contexts where bringing something or someone into existence is not the issue. Bara is frequently found in parallel to these other verbs, such as 'asah, "to make" (Isa. 41:20; 43:7; 45:7, 12; Amos 4:13), yasar, "to form" (Isa. 43:1, 7; 45:7; Amos 4:13), and kun, "to establish." (F. F. Bruce, and W. E. Vine. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words)​

See also Made `asah ( עָשָׂה Strongs H6213 )

All that are in the heavens were made during creation week.
Angels are in the heavens.
Therefore, Angels were made during creation week.

The angels rejoiced at the creation of life on earth:

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? (Job 38:4-8)​

Brother, I don't see a way around that.

The Scriptures are clear on this point.

And while you're right that it's not an essential doctrine for salvation, it can still have eternal consequences. Our kids (the next generation) are leaving church in record numbers, and I believe this is directly related to the church's concessions on Genesis. We certainly can believe the gospel while rejecting Genesis, but the next generation is looking at the foundation we're presenting and saying "no thank you." They know we don't believe everything in the Bible, so why should they believe anything in it? The church is slowly becoming irrelevant, and I believe there's a correlation between that and our compromise on Genesis. Belief in genesis is not essential to salvation, but it is essential to a healthy relevant church.

Our seminaries have become a clearing house of Liberal Theology, people are leaving the church in record numbers because they are no longer churches. What is happening here has already happened in Europe where there are a lot of professing Christians, most of which would never accept a miracle and certainly never proclaim the New Testament Gospel.

This is where you take your stand:

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; (Eph 6:12-14)​

We may not like what we are up against but where else is there to go?

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. (John 6:67, 68)​

Grace and peace,
Mark