• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. I just wanted to share something my fiance' came up with. She is a jewelry designer and has a shop with her daughter. They asked if I had an outlet for some of their items and I told them I would share it with everyone here at CF. So I started them an Etsy Shop account to showcase what they have done. And this is the first items! Check it out and let me know what you think!

    Thanks so much! - Rex

    Click here to see it!

Thread to determine some basic tenets of Christianity

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by FreedByte, Apr 6, 2014.

  1. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

    +10,172
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    I never really thought of it that way. I hope I have used it correctly. I think I normally don't say "canon" unless I mean "books chosen to be in the Bible". I think.

    Given that though - I didn't actually answer what I quoted in my recent reply. It was outside of my point anyway though.
     
  2. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

    +2,414
    Catholic
    Private
    Yes, canon is different from scripture in the way I mentioned. It is one of the wonders of God's grace that the canon, though not inspired, is truth. The men who composed the canon list for sacred scripture got it right because God was with them and in them working all things together for our good according to the good pleasure of his own will. They produced truth, so the table of contents of their bible, the canon, is reliable and trustworthy and true.
     
  3. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

    +3,216
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Which ones?

    Paul was mentoring Timothy so the letters were addressed to him to encourage him. These are pastoral letters. Timothy was young, not married, and had no children, so he did not meet the requirements for bishop per Paul's list that he included in 1 Tim. 3. Timothy's role during this period was to teach. You have no biblical basis for your statement.
     
  4. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

    +3,216
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Nope. The books of scripture are both the table of contents and the scriptures. There is no difference since the table of contents does not differ from the scriptures.
     
  5. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +2,617
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Then why do the Bibles of different Christian groups differ in content?
     
  6. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

    +3,216
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    All Christian churches have the same NT, including yours. The differences are from the OT and then mostly within churches like yours.
     
  7. sculleywr

    sculleywr trouble-making crazy guy

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Engaged
    US-Others
    The canon defines what is and isn't Scripture. The OT canon of the Protestants only existed in the 500-600s AD because Jews were fed up with Christians using the OT to prove Christ, so they removed a large number of Scriptures. They also happened to be from the Sadducees, so they leveled the statement that all Scripture is written in Hebrew, cutting out large portions of the canon known by Josephus.
     
  8. sculleywr

    sculleywr trouble-making crazy guy

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Engaged
    US-Others
    By that statement, Paul, himself, did not meet the qualifications of being a Bishop, since he was unmarried and had no children.

    Why was Timothy told the criteria to select bishops, and told to lay hands on them, if he did not have the right to lay hands on them? To clear things up here, laying hands on did not mean to pray over. It meant to ordain another. Paul clearly commanded Timothy to ordain bishops. Who ordains bishops aside from other Bishops and Apostles?

    And biblical basis is not needed, otherwise, I could just as easily say you have no biblical basis for your canon, since the canon was not inspired by God.

    See, we KNOW Timothy was martyred in the 80s AD from the same source that told us that Paul was beheaded. Timothy was preaching on the celebration of the Resurrection, which was brought such a large gathering that it filled the street. The pagans were trying to have their own parade, and when Timothy refused to vacate the street to allow them to celebrate their pagan festival, the angry pagans dragged him off in anger and stoned him.

    He was serving as a Bishop at that time. As to young, that is a relative term. Timothy was young, for a bishop.See, Timothy had previous experience with the Apostles and even with Christ Himself, having been, by the same source, one of the seventy disciples sent out by Christ.

    Timothy was maybe 20 at the time of the sending of the 70, and at the time he was made Bishop, he was in his 30s, which IS young for a Bishop, if it were not for his previous experience, first under his mother and grandmother, and then under Christ, and then under the tutelage of the Apostle Paul.

    Since none of the things I am stating here contradict Scripture, there is no problem EXCEPT that you don't accept any extra-scriptural information as relevant, ridding you of the necessary background, context, and history surrounding the writing of Scripture, which is crucial to understanding the message.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  9. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

    +2,414
    Catholic
    Private
    I see; I didn't realise that Zondervan was the inspired prophet of the holy table of contents.
     
  10. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

    +0
    I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. 22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
    1st epistle


    Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.


    2nd epistle




    in short ... huh ?
     
  11. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

    +78
    Humanist
    Private
    :D :D :D :D
     
  12. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

    +671
    Anglican
    Married
    CA-Greens
    I think what is really important though is not really why the Reformers made the change, but that they did. What it shows is that the Reformers understood quite well that the authority to define the canon was understood to reside in the Church and with the Holy Spirit working within the Church.

    And it would be pretty hard for anyone to accept their decision about the canon while also rejecting that they say the Church as having the ability and authority to discern that from outside the Scriptures themselves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  13. sculleywr

    sculleywr trouble-making crazy guy

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Engaged
    US-Others
    It would also be easy to reject their decision while still maintaining that the Church is only the Church so long as it maintains a real connection to the Apostles.

    There is no question of the motivation behind the changing of the canon. The change was motivated because people were rejecting the innovations of the Roman church. However, they determined the canon before they determined their doctrine, whereas the original canon of Scripture was determined AFTER the Church had a well established Doctrinal core. The Old Testament canon we use, in particular, ought to be the canon used by Christ and the Apostles. We can very easily guess that the canon was the Septuagint, since we have Christ blatantly quoting the Septuagint several times.

    Further historical research reveals that the Septuagint did, indeed, include the books questioned in the Protestant West, at the time of Christ. This is evidenced both within Scripture, where Christ and the Apostles quote from the popularly called apocrypha. When they don't quote, they allude to, reference, and in one arguable statement, even outright name the books (Christ is said by some to have been referencing the book titled "Wisdom of Solomon", though the reference can be said to be referring to the actual WISDOM, rather than the titular book).

    When Christ, the Apostles, and very early Christian authors are all making references to these books, one should question the reason they were removed.

    Protestants are very quick to say the OT was only written in Hebrew and Aramaic, but they never answer the question of why. Why was Hebrew the only language? Sure, the Sadducees believed that. But was it true? How do you know?

    This is where people get their cart before the horse. You cannot determine the proper Scriptures without a proper guideline. That guideline is proper Doctrine. That is how the canon was originally shaped.

    The Church does not reserve the right to change the canon. The Church has the right to display the canon. This is because, unlike the Roman teaching that doctrine develops as the Church shapes it, the Christian teaching is that doctrine does NOT develop. The Church is centered upon the Doctrine. Doctrine is to the Church what DNA is to a cell. It translates the statements of Scripture into useful parts of our spiritual life. Yes, it is shaped and maintained by Scripture, like protein shapes and maintains DNA, but they do a lot more. You cannot have one without the other.
     
  14. stan1953

    stan1953 Well-Known Member

    +47
    Christian
    Single
    CA-Liberals

    What following paragraph?
    What was asked was about tenets. That would come AFTER salvation.
     
  15. sculleywr

    sculleywr trouble-making crazy guy

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Engaged
    US-Others
    Except that salvation isn't taught by every church in the same way. Many say that salvation is justification, and that sanctification and glorification are separate from salvation.

    However, it is a much older teaching that salvation was all three. And if all three are part of salvation, then our repentant obedience to Christ in Baptism is also part and parcel.

    The following paragraph part, also, was a mistype. It missed the s at the end of paragraph. My bad. The OP clearly defines the topic. My main thrust is on infant baptism. But the topic of canon has also come up.
     
  16. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee Repentance works.

    +2,414
    Catholic
    Private
    I suppose 'salvation' is the most relevant of the basic tenets of Christianity and that makes it a likely source of contention. I've seen posts written by some that unless one has the correct doctrine of salvation then one cannot be saved and is not saved. Some say Arminians are not saved, which seems an odd exclusion, some say that Catholics are not, a few say that without submersion in baptism, upon profession of faith, one cannot be saved and so forth. So the doctrine of salvation is obviously one that does generate controversy.

    Catholic teaching about salvation is best summed up this way:
    SALVATION is the forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone.​
    Of course, how one can be saved is defined by Jesus Christ (all of Christianity is defined by Jesus Christ). Jesus taught these things (some of which are very unpopular nowadays):
    • Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Matthew 19:23-26 KJV)
    • Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13-14 KJV)
    • I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:1-10 KJV)
    The Lord had more to say about salvation but the above lessons are worth remembering in our day and age. Salvation is not as easy as a "sinner's prayer" and it is not as antinomian as "once saved always saved" can seem to be and it is not obtained by success and wealth and it requires arduous effort. But is that what you are taught and what you've come to believe?
     
  17. shturt678s

    shturt678s Regular Member

    +67
    Lutheran
    Single
    After one undergoes "salvation" then one needs to "remain in" "begin saved" ('running' the race) and "shall be saved," ie, no resting on the sidelines after the reduced from the 1.5 hours to the "1" hour church services on Sunday of today.

    Old 'walking fast' Jack
     
  18. stan1953

    stan1953 Well-Known Member

    +47
    Christian
    Single
    CA-Liberals
    I guess CF must have cleaned things up because I just got an email notice about this thread. Sorry for the late response.

    Yes indeed, Paul teaches that after we receive Jesus, we receive all three things.
    Rom 8:28-30;
    28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
     
  19. sculleywr

    sculleywr trouble-making crazy guy

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Engaged
    US-Others
    so, essentially, we are programmed to be Christians. We are in no way responsible if we can't even assent to His grace.
     
  20. stan1953

    stan1953 Well-Known Member

    +47
    Christian
    Single
    CA-Liberals

    No, not at all. God knew who would love and accept his son, and as such He predestined them to be conformed to be like His son, Christ-like, and at the same time He called, justified and glorified them. Don
    't get thrown off by the word 'predestined', as it ONLY refers to those who accept Jesus. It means that God has a plan for their lives. If we choose Him we need to also choose to follow His plan. Of course that is not always the case and many of us stumble.
     
Loading...