Thousands of paedophiles active in French Catholic Church since 1950, commission finds

[Andrewn]

Modesty Mandatory For Michelangelo's David Statue In Dubai

Why does the Catholic Church have a lot of statues and paintings like that over the centuries? Sure it's a masterpiece by Michelangelo himself, but does it give the proper religious image?

 

[tampasteve]

In my community we had a protestant lead the charge against a Catholic priest that molested 4 boys. That same Protestant later plead guilty too molesting 14 boys.

My 2 daughters attended a Catholic Elementary/Middle school, No other school in the area came close as far as security and background checks for volunteers and the priests refuse to be left alone in a room with a child.

Before you say this is a strictly catholic problem, you should look at what the numbers say.

I most certainly did not say it was a "strictly catholic problem", I actually made a point that it is not with my statement:

It does, certainly. It should be rooted out there as well, as it should be whoever it is found.

Saying that something happens somewhere else as well deflects blame and seemingly minimalizes the issue in the case at hand. The ongoing story here is that it is about the Catholic Church. What is more often than not a local (though widespread) problem in Protestant denominations due to the far less centralized nature of the denominations is apparently an institutional issue in the RCC. That church moved predator priests around dioceses and countries, and at times globally. That church covered up hundreds of thousands of cases in the last century alone. That church continues to not do enough to root out the problem and ensure it does not continue.

Does that happen in other churches? Yes, and it is egregious anywhere it happens. It should be rooted out, and justice dealt swiftly.

 

[tampasteve]

Modesty Mandatory For Michelangelo's David Statue In Dubai

Why does the Catholic Church have a lot of statues and paintings like that over the centuries? Sure it's a masterpiece by Michelangelo himself, but does it give the proper religious image?

I am not sure the David is the best example, it is not resident in a church. That said, there are examples of the nude form in art found in churches, but I don't think there is anything nefarious there. It is good to celebrate the creation of God in proper context, and these depictions are not intended to be sexual in nature, overall. I find many of these paintings to be incredibly inspiring and moving. His Pieta had literally moved me to tears, what he accomplished in stone and paint is awe inspiring.

 

[Andrewn]

I find many of these paintings to be incredibly inspiring and moving. His Pieta had literally moved me to tears, what he accomplished in stone and paint is awe inspiring.

Yes, I agree with this part. And no one can contest Michelangelo's genius and artistic stature.

 

[lismore]

I think the destructive issue will be that paedophiles were often sheltered by the hierarchy, moved around rather than prosecuted, protecting the hierarchy not the sheep. It can be similar in other hierarchical denominations and institutions, a lack of accountability and transparency, dehumanising and commodifying members. I think the antidote is in something the Lord said:

Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all (Mark 10:42-44)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I'd be interested in knowing if the cases in France are more like those in the United States
where there majority of sexual abuse cases by priest were not actually pedophiles but
homosexual priest with post pubescent teen boys and older seminarians.

Dr Philip Jenkins, did a study awhile back that showed less than 4% of sexual abuse cases
were committed by Catholic Priests over a 40 year period and of that number, less than 1%
were cases of pedophilia. The majority were homosexual priest with post pubescent teens
and young men. When the report came out just as the sexual abuse cases were revealed in
the Boston Archdioceses, the Vatican immediately prohibited men with homosexual tendencies
to become priest.

 

[Incendiary Minds]

I am not sure the David is the best example, it is not resident in a church. That said, there are examples of the nude form in art found in churches, but I don't think there is anything nefarious there. It is good to celebrate the creation of God in proper context, and these depictions are not intended to be sexual in nature, overall. I find many of these paintings to be incredibly inspiring and moving. His Pieta had literally moved me to tears, what he accomplished in stone and paint is awe inspiring.

 

[Incendiary Minds]

Unfortunately there have been a lot of Men erotically charged up by Vatican art from the David, the nude cherubs to even the infamous case of the painting of the martyrdom of young St. Sebastian pierced bodily by arrows. Some would blame the individuals, others would question the perspective and intent of the art.

For example, Michaelangelo's David was done that way to say that he had nothing to defend his vulnerable body EXCEPT the INVISIBLE armor of God. In constrast, in Eastern Orthodox Iconography. David is pictured as a very fully clothed, wizened OLD MAN, posing with a piece of writing on a parchment lamenting his sins. No eroticism there !

 

[lismore]

Unfortunately there have been a lot of Men erotically charged up by Vatican art from the David, the nude cherubs to even the infamous case of the painting of the martyrdom of young St. Sebastian pierced bodily by arrows. Some would blame the individuals, others would question the perspective and intent of the art.

Interesting point! It does give the impression that the church might have a two tier system of morality, one for the rich and powerful but another for the ordinary Joe. Generic 'inappropriate contentography' being bad but 'erotic art' aka high-brow inappropriate content being ok.

Another example might be in gambling. When the ordinary Joe gambles it's wrong (and I would agree so) but when rich and powerful 'Christians' like the Queen of England and the Tel-evangelist Pat Robertson own racehorses and profiteer from the gambling -'high brow gambling' then that's ok.

A two tier morality system might also help to explain why so many paedophiles have been shielded in the hierarchy.

The good news is that Jesus Christ will soon be coming to judge the earth and there won't be one rule for the rich and powerful and another for everyone else.

God Bless

 

[Andrewn]

Detail of The Last Judgment by Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel, Rome.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Only a fairly small minority of these sex offenders are pedophiles. Sexual abuse in the Catholic Church is most frequently against adolescent boys. After that, the second most common form of sexual abuse is against young adult men, generally seminarians and younger priests.

In other words, the problem is not “pedophiles” in the priesthood. It’s homosexuals in the priesthood.

 

[Andrewn]

Southern Baptist Convention CEO Ronnie Floyd resigns as the old guard finally crumbles
Change is coming slowly and painfully to an organization roiled by a sex abuse scandal that exposed the hypocrisy at its core.

Opinion | Conservative Baptists' shameful hypocrisy revealed in sex abuse scandal

 

[tampasteve]

Only a fairly small minority of these sex offenders are pedophiles. Sexual abuse in the Catholic Church is most frequently against adolescent boys. After that, the second most common form of sexual abuse is against young adult men, generally seminarians and younger priests.

In other words, the problem is not “pedophiles” in the priesthood. It’s homosexuals in the priesthood.

That is certainly one way to look at it. Honestly though, it doesn't matter.

Sexual abuse in the Catholic Church is most frequently against adolescent boys. After that, the second most common form of sexual abuse is against young adult men, generally seminarians and younger priests.

So, sexual abuse is rife and most common against adolescent boys. That is pedophilia, whether it is homosexual or heterosexual. We can't make it look like the "problem" is just gay priests - it is adults preying on children. Homosexuality is another issue to be sure, but it is also a completely different one.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

That is certainly one way to look at it. Honestly though, it doesn't matter.

So, sexual abuse is rife and most common against adolescent boys. That is pedophilia, whether it is homosexual or heterosexual. We can't make it look like the "problem" is just gay priests - it is adults preying on children. Homosexuality is another issue to be sure, but it is also a completely different one.

Pedophilia is sexual abuse with a pre-pubescent child.

Most of the cases with priest are with post-pubescent males or adult seminarians who are both often homosexuals themselves.

Heterosexual males have no desire to have sex with other males, young or old.

 

[tampasteve]

Heterosexual males have no desire to have sex with other males, young or old.

When I said "That is pedophilia, whether it is homosexual or heterosexual." I was meaning it does not matter if it is with male children or female children, it is a sin, crime, and just wrong.

Pedophilia is sexual abuse with a pre-pubescent child.

Most of the cases with priest are with post-pubescent males or adult seminarians who are both often homosexuals themselves.

Does it really matter if this scandal and scourge is with pre or post pubescent children? If this were with men over the age of consent it would be a scandal about homosexuality, which would be scandal enough...but this about children, let's not try and pretend it is just about homosexuality.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

When I said "That is pedophilia, whether it is homosexual or heterosexual." I was meaning it does not matter if it is with male children or female children, it is a sin, crime, and just wrong.

Does it really matter if this scandal and scourge is with pre or post pubescent children? If this were with men over the age of consent it would be a scandal about homosexuality, which would be scandal enough...but this about children, let's not try and pretend it is just about homosexuality.

It just gives the correct assessment of the problem. It wasn't priest molesting children, i.e. pedophilia. They later came out with the term to define post-pubescent sexual abuse as E-pedophilia. FYI, neither term was in psychiatric text books 40 years ago according
to one elderly retired clinical psychiatrist I heard speak on the issue years ago.

Of course all cases are sinful and wrong. But context is important when talking about the issue.

 

[tampasteve]

OK, let's not try and split hairs and call it what it is:

Adult men homosexually and heterosexually abusing children younger than the age of consent habitually, globally, and with the Church trying to cover it up over decades.

This is a crime, a sin, and should not be minimized in any way.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

OK, let's not try and split hairs and call it what it is:

Adult men homosexually and heterosexually abusing children younger than the age of consent habitually, globally, and with the Church trying to cover it up over decades.

This is a crime, a sin, and should not be minimized in any way.

It's not splitting hairs. There is a big difference between actual pedophilia and homosexual sex between a priest and a young teen or seminarian. Statistically,
the majority of sexual abuse cases involves young teens and young adult men,
with homosexual priest, these cases are less than 4% of the priest population.
Pedophilia less than 1% and is rare among the cases of sexual abuse. The media
has everyone believing that the majority of priests are pedophiles. Such is not the case.

FYI, the data was provided by Professor Philip Jenkins from Pennsylvania U. He's not a Catholic if anyone thinks he has a bias.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

That is certainly one way to look at it. Honestly though, it doesn't matter.

So, sexual abuse is rife and most common against adolescent boys. That is pedophilia,

No, the accurate term is pederasty.

When I said "That is pedophilia, whether it is homosexual or heterosexual." I was meaning it does not matter if it is with male children or female children, it is a sin, crime, and just wrong.

Crime yes, but psychologically, it’s a completely different profile.

Does it really matter if this scandal and scourge is with pre or post pubescent children? If this were with men over the age of consent it would be a scandal about homosexuality, which would be scandal enough...but this about children, let's not try and pretend it is just about homosexuality.

It absolutely matters. A substantial minority of these cases do involve men over the age of consent. Age of consent is a legal term, not a psychological one. It’s not as though you go through a radical transformation on your 16th, 17th, 18th birthday, whatever the age of consent might be in your state. Actually, I believe in France it’s 15. But legal technicalities don’t change the nature of the crime. Mostly, these sexual abuse cases are males who are post-pubescent, and often sexually mature. The main common denominator here is homosexuality. Not pedophilia, just plain old homosexuality.

 

[SilverBear]

Only a fairly small minority of these sex offenders are pedophiles. Sexual abuse in the Catholic Church is most frequently against adolescent boys. After that, the second most common form of sexual abuse is against young adult men, generally seminarians and younger priests.

In other words, the problem is not “pedophiles” in the priesthood. It’s homosexuals in the priesthood.

Child molestation is a crime of opportunity not of gender. Those men who molest (and yes it is almost exclusively men who do the molesting) will sexually abuse a child that is available to them without regard to the gender of the child. If it is a boy who is available then it is a boy that perpetrator will sexually assault. If that child is a girl then likewise that is who the perpetrator will assault.