Thousands Celebrate the First Landing

[Foolish_Fool]

gruel

Now there's a word you don't hear everyday. For some reason I had a flashback to playing Guantlet as a child and heard the "MmmmMMmmmm" sound play in my head. Weird.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Now there's a word you don't hear everyday. For some reason I had a flashback to playing Guantlet as a child and heard the "MmmmMMmmmm" sound play in my head. Weird.

I use the word on purpose...the poster I was responding to, and many like him, seem terrified by the prospect of some group that they don't belong to getting a tiny extra benefit as an attempt to address an injustice, especially if it comes from "tax payer money"... yet such people rarely, if ever, seem to mind the massive tax breaks and special treatment given to multi million companies...

In Australia here, for example, we are in the middle of the biggest drought in a century. Neighbours are religiously dobbing in each other for breaking water restrictions over tiny, petty infractions, like watering pot plants or using hoses to wash cars... Yet Coca-Cola is paying 10c per MEGAliter... and no one cares. Same deal here... "I don't care that National air carriers get huge tax breaks and incentives, or that CEOs get multi million dollar golden handshakes, just so long as no one else gets given an extra $10 a week more than I do from the government! "

 

[Wolseley]

If you can accurately, geneologically trace your family back in such a way that you can link your family to any specific injustice, AND you can identify a grioup of people who are benefiting from that misjustice today, I would totaly support what you are saying.

The Irish side of my family arrived in America from County Kildare in the 1860's because they were forced off their land by an absentee landlord. The women went to England to work as domestic servants, and the men came here to try their luck.

The German side of the family came here in the 1840's from Alsace-Lorraine. Unfortunately I can't find much more than that because the records were all destroyed by bombing in World War II.

I'm Irish/English heritage myself, but I HAVN'T been abot to perform such an act of geneological research, and I suspect, nor have you.

I have a touch of English heritage myself. We've traced it all the way back to the time of William the Conquerer. Some minor baron from Normandy who went over with the invasion. I have a touch of Scots in there, too---got an actual clan badge and everything.

So what you are ACTUALLY doing, is whining for fear that someone somewhere may be awarding something you aren't entitled to. Its called sour grapes, and its really unattractive.

I'm not whining at all. I'm merely pointing out how tired I get with other people whining about how victimized they are over something that took place 200 years ago.

For a change, rather than worrying about other people getting a benefit you aren't entitled to, try to be HAPPY for an oppressed group getting SOME form of compensation... just try it, your blood pressure will go down and you'll live longer.

Oh, I have Verapamil and Tiramterene for that.

 

[BlackAndy]

Of all the horrors visited upon the Native American population, no one has mentioned the part THEY played in their loss of this country.
Tribalism and infighting aside, the Indians response to westward expansion by frontiersmen and their families was equally brutal and savage. Disembowlments, kidnappings, scalpings, mass slaughters of thousands of settlers was met in the end by a force more powerful than they, and by a force that looked upon them as less than human (largely as a result of their savagery).
It's an ugly reality of history, but borders are shaped and peoples come to control a territory through power and force than by any other means...

(On a side note, I find it funny that some people will equate the Ameican Indian and the Palestinians of today.)

 

[EnemyPartyII]

The Irish side of my family arrived in America from County Kildare in the 1860's because they were forced off their land by an absentee landlord. The women went to England to work as domestic servants, and the men came here to try their luck.

The German side of the family came here in the 1840's from Alsace-Lorraine. Unfortunately I can't find much more than that because the records were all destroyed by bombing in World War II.

So, have you tried to seek recompense for any injustice done your ancestors? Or is it simply easier to bad mouth those who do?

I have a touch of English heritage myself. We've traced it all the way back to the time of William the Conquerer. Some minor baron from Normandy who went over with the invasion. I have a touch of Scots in there, too---got an actual clan badge and everything

I've gotten as far back as the 1100s... but can I specifically tie any of my ancestors to any one elses, and then the two to a specific unadressed injustice? No. Can you?

American Indians can, African Americans can, European Jews can... why do you want to stop them?

I'm not whining at all. I'm merely pointing out how tired I get with other people whining about how victimized they are over something that took place 200 years ago.

Maybe if your entire culture had been wiped out, your family and people had been driven from their lands, and you had been reduced to a state of near begary, you might whine about it too, what do you think?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

First of all, surely you are aware that scalping was invented as a method for evaluating the amount of bounty to be paid by the government for dead Indians? Indian scalping was only ever an act of retaliation...

As for the rest of your claims (slauter of THOUSANDS of settlers? Source?)... I'm sure there were atrocities on both sides, as there are in any war.

But it still hardly justifies the actions of the invaders that the invaded fought back...

"Me:I'm going to punch you
Black Andy: Why? What did I do to you?
Me: well you're about to hit me!
Black Andy: What? Why would I do that?
Me: You're going to hit me in retaliation for me hiting you... so I'M going to hit YOU FIRST!"

Anyone else see the apparent error in this line of reasoning?

 

[marblehead]

So, have you tried to seek recompense for any injustice done your ancestors? Or is it simply easier to bad mouth those who do?I've gotten as far back as the 1100s... but can I specifically tie any of my ancestors to any one elses, and then the two to a specific unadressed injustice? No. Can you?

American Indians can, African Americans can, European Jews can... why do you want to stop them? Maybe if your entire culture had been wiped out, your family and people had been driven from their lands, and you had been reduced to a state of near begary, you might whine about it too, what do you think?

Is there really anybody who doesn't have ancestors who committed atocities or had them committed upon them?

 

[Wolseley]

So, have you tried to seek recompense for any injustice done your ancestors?

Well, we haven't gotten the land back, if that's what you're asking. Other than that, no. I see no reason to seek recompense for something that happened 100 years before I was born. I am responsible for my own destiny, and I make it or don't make it on my own, without asking for handouts.

I've gotten as far back as the 1100s... but can I specifically tie any of my ancestors to any one elses, and then the two to a specific unadressed injustice? No. Can you?

I told you---they got booted off a farm in County Kildare by an absentee landlord. We have the name of the landlord, and the line of descent from them to me.

American Indians can, African Americans can, European Jews can... why do you want to stop them? Maybe if your entire culture had been wiped out, your family and people had been driven from their lands, and you had been reduced to a state of near begary, you might whine about it too, what do you think?

Wouldn't it be better to just accept the past and drive on?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Is there really anybody who doesn't have ancestors who committed atocities or had them committed upon them?

Probably not. However, in the case of some groups, this isn't a hypothetical assumption... they KNOW the name of the guy who stole their land and killed their ancestors, AND the name of his decendant who is mega rich from the oil or diamonds found on the land, or from the artworks stolen from, or whatever... and if I knew for sure the name of the person making financial benefit from my ancestor's unjust suffering, I'D sure want to do something about it!

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I told you---they got booted off a farm in County Kildare by an absentee landlord. We have the name of the landlord, and the line of descent from them to me.

First... the legal status of a landlord/tennat relationship says more than you do... if you're a tennat, eviction is always a possibility, sad but true. Unjust, maybe, but a legal possibility that the tennant at some point agree to live under.

The American Indian were under no such agreement. In Western legal terms, they owned the land "freehold"... and were driven off it by people with absolutely no claim to it, other than the right of conquest. A somewhat different kettle of fish to the landlord led highland clearnces you mention.

Second... have you ATTEMPTED to seek any sort of recompense on behalf of your family? Or, as I suspect, is it merely easier to deride the initiative of those who are prepared to make the effort?

Wouldn't it be better to just accept the past and drive on?

YOU are, of course, free to accept the past and move on. However just because YOU are content to accept the loss of familial land, your culture, your roots, and the dispersion or attempted genocide of your people, does not mean that others should be content to "accept it and move on"

 

[marblehead]

Probably not. However, in the case of some groups, this isn't a hypothetical assumption... they KNOW the name of the guy who stole their land and killed their ancestors, AND the name of his decendant who is mega rich from the oil or diamonds found on the land, or from the artworks stolen from, or whatever... and if I knew for sure the name of the person making financial benefit from my ancestor's unjust suffering, I'D sure want to do something about it!

I just don't get that thinking. It'd be an endless cycle of people having to pay others for things their ancestors did.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I just don't get that thinking. It'd be an endless cycle of people having to pay others for things their ancestors did.

If you died in a car accident that was someone else's fault... would you want your family recompensed?

If your FATHER died of an illness caused by toxic waste dumping, would you seek compensation?

How about your GRANDFATHER?

Because in many cases, the timeline we are talking about isn't much more than that. There are still African Americans alive today whose parents were born slaves, and there are still NAtive American's alive today whose parents were put in reservations.

This ISN'T ancient history we're talking

 

[BlackAndy]

I just don't get that thinking. It'd be an endless cycle of people having to pay others for things their ancestors did.

We agree on something....
I guess there is hope yet in the world.

 

[doodofdoods]

I just don't get that thinking. It'd be an endless cycle of people having to pay others for things their ancestors did.

Yea, but I feel those who are rich from exploiting the poor should have to give up a good portion of their money to helping the poor
that they've exploited. exploiting them for years, then stopping isn't a good enough gesture, you have to make sure the people you were exploiting can have an equal future. That wasn't done with African Americans, they weren't truly equal until the 1960's, about a century after slavery was abolished.

Right now, jobs are outsourced or given to illegal immigrants, those who are exploiting these poor workers need to make sure that they help pave the way for a better tomorrow for those people instead of just profitting off of their misfortune.

 

[Wolseley]

A young teenage girl was about to finish her first year of college. She considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat but her father was a rather staunch Republican.

One day she was challenging her father on his beliefs and his opposition to taxes and welfare programs. He stopped her and asked her how she was doing in school.

She answered that she had a 4.0 GPA but it was really tough. She had to study all the time, never had time to go out and party. She didn't have time for a boyfriend and didn't really have many college friends because of spending all her time studying.

He asked, "How is your friend Mary?" She replied that Mary was barely getting by. She had a 2.0 GPA, never studied, but was very popular on campus, went to all the parties all the time. She often didn't show up for classes because she was hung over.

Dad then asked his daughter why she didn't go to the Dean's office and ask why she couldn't take 1.0 off her 4.0 and give it to her friend who only had a 2.0. That way they would both have a 3.0 GPA.

The daughter angrily fired back, "That wouldn't be fair, I worked really hard for mine and Mary has done nothing".

The father slowly smiled and said, "Welcome to the Republican Party".

 

[Morcova]

If that's your image of a democrat you haven't spent nearly enough time around young republicans.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

A young teenage girl was about to finish her first year of college. She considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat but her father was a rather staunch Republican.

One day she was challenging her father on his beliefs and his opposition to taxes and welfare programs. He stopped her and asked her how she was doing in school.

She answered that she had a 4.0 GPA but it was really tough. She had to study all the time, never had time to go out and party. She didn't have time for a boyfriend and didn't really have many college friends because of spending all her time studying.

He asked, "How is your friend Mary?" She replied that Mary was barely getting by. She had a 2.0 GPA, never studied, but was very popular on campus, went to all the parties all the time. She often didn't show up for classes because she was hung over.

Dad then asked his daughter why she didn't go to the Dean's office and ask why she couldn't take 1.0 off her 4.0 and give it to her friend who only had a 2.0. That way they would both have a 3.0 GPA.

The daughter angrily fired back, "That wouldn't be fair, I worked really hard for mine and Mary has done nothing".

The father slowly smiled and said, "Welcome to the Republican Party".

Um... are you implying that Native American genocide, or African American slavery, or the Holocaust against European Jews and other minorities, are somehow analogous to someone CHOOSING to party rather than study?

 

[Wolseley]

Take it any way you want to.

You will anyway.

 

[doodofdoods]

Um... are you implying that Native American genocide, or African American slavery, or the Holocaust against European Jews and other minorities, are somehow analogous to someone CHOOSING to party rather than study?

There's that and the fact that her GPA isn't equivalent to money. for some rich people shaving a percentage off of their net worth would be inconsequential to them, that girl shaving a point off her GPA could be disastrous to her future.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Take it any way you want to.

You will anyway.

Aww gee... did I point out the major flaw in your cutesy little "argument by soundbite" post? I'm sorry!

Fact is Mary makes a CHOICE to party rather thn study... Native Americans, African Americans, etc were never given a choice.