Thoughts on Ukraine and how to spare lives

FutureAndAHope

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Rom 12:17-19 Don't mistreat someone who has mistreated you. But try to earn the respect of others, and do your best to live at peace with everyone. Dear friends, don't try to get even. Let God take revenge.

It is not too late for peace. We should be pushing for a peaceful resolution. How to do that is not always clear or easy to see in the midst of conflict.



More recent idea:
===========

Proposed Peace Plan

This is a proposed peace plan to potentially bring an end to tensions in the Ukraine region. Obviously, it needs the support of both parties, so I am presenting it to both.

The plan is a simple two-step plan that I hope will satisfy both nations.


Problem

Russia

Russia has stated in the media that it has “security concerns” (a) in Ukraine, and that the war is an effort to demilitarize Ukraine (b), that it does not seek to occupy the region. I believe this “security concern” has been fueled by military investment by Western Nations (c) in Ukraine. There may be other grievances.

Ukraine

Ukraine also has security concerns, and now the war in the region. In particular their constant struggle with Russian Separatists in the East (d). Ukraine may have other grievances.

Proposed Peace Solution

Ukraine is to demilitarize on its own accord in accord with demand (b). It is not to receive arms or military aid from Western Nations in response to point (c).

Ukraine is to maintain its current governance and laws.

Russia is not to support financing or other activities toward the Russian Separatists in the region. Russia must cease to support the Separatists in line with grievance (d). To enforce this treaty, International Peace Keepers must be sent to Eastern Ukraine, financed by money that would normally be spent on military equipment by Ukraine, and its Western allies. These peacekeepers will be responsible for maintaining peace in the region. The force must be from nations approved by both Russia and the West, i.e. not US bases.

Russia is to leave Ukraine immediately, and cease it war.


Old Idea
=====
However, this is my opinion. It is my belief that the only way to end the conflict is to temporarily surrender the region of Ukraine, to not fight for it militarily, but rather through diplomacy. Why do I say this, this is primarily a humanitarian issue. War is raging and taking lives. The fact is that every moment the war continues more lives are lost, more people maimed, more families with lost ones separated and lost. Jesus made a comment, in the Bible.


Luke 14:31-32 What will a king do if he has only ten thousand soldiers to defend himself against a king who is about to attack him with twenty thousand soldiers? Before he goes out to battle, won't he first sit down and decide if he can win? If he thinks he won't be able to defend himself, he will send messengers and ask for peace while the other king is still a long way off.


The above verse, show us what wisdom is. When a battle is a losing one, or one that is likely to be lost, a wise king will send a peace delegation, to protect his own life and that of his people. What is it that we are up against? What are we losing? A humanitarian tragedy for Ukraine, and if it continues war that spills over to become a Global Conflict.


What will pacify this? I would suggest that giving into Putin’s demands for the short term would pacify his need for war. We as the West need to assure Putin that don’t have his nation as a target. Unfortunately, that means convincing Ukraine to give in to Russia, so that we can return to the negotiating table. A negotiation on behalf of Ukraine.


I know many would hate this idea. Giving up the apple to the bully, while we fetch the teacher, may be better, than beating each other up over it. Who is the teacher, the international community, the apple Ukraine.


But right now Ukrainians die. While we squabble. At least preserve them from death, while we seek a diplomatic solution.

I have been thinking that rather than a full-blown surrender. That Ukraine demilitarises itself, in line with Putin’s demands. That Ukraine has no military but maintains its government. And that international peacekeeping forces (approved by Russia so they do not feel threatened) be deployed into Eastern Ukraine to prevent rebel elements from harassing the legitimate government of Ukraine. Under these conditions, Russia must withdraw from Ukraine.
 
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pdudgeon

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Rom 12:17-19 Don't mistreat someone who has mistreated you. But try to earn the respect of others, and do your best to live at peace with everyone. Dear friends, don't try to get even. Let God take revenge.

It is not too late for peace. We should be pushing for a peaceful resolution. How to do that is not always clear or easy to see in the midst of conflict.


However, this is my opinion. It is my belief that the only way to end the conflict is to temporarily surrender the region of Ukraine, to not fight for it militarily, but rather through diplomacy. Why do I say this, this is primarily a humanitarian issue. War is raging and taking lives. The fact is that every moment the war continues more lives are lost, more people maimed, more families with lost ones separated and lost. Jesus made a comment, in the Bible.


Luke 14:31-32 What will a king do if he has only ten thousand soldiers to defend himself against a king who is about to attack him with twenty thousand soldiers? Before he goes out to battle, won't he first sit down and decide if he can win? If he thinks he won't be able to defend himself, he will send messengers and ask for peace while the other king is still a long way off.


The above verse, show us what wisdom is. When a battle is a losing one, or one that is likely to be lost, a wise king will send a peace delegation, to protect his own life and that of his people. What is it that we are up against? What are we losing? A humanitarian tragedy for Ukraine, and if it continues war that spills over to become a Global Conflict.


What will pacify this? I would suggest that giving into Putin’s demands for the short term would pacify his need for war. We as the West need to assure Putin that don’t have his nation as a target. Unfortunately, that means convincing Ukraine to give in to Russia, so that we can return to the negotiating table. A negotiation on behalf of Ukraine.


I know many would hate this idea. But we have to ask ourselves, if we just sit idly by and watch Ukraine be ravaged, while we sit in comfort, saying “Fight your own war”, what have we achieved. Either surrender Ukraine to stop violence and death, and return to the peace table. Or do more to support Ukraine militarily, and share in their sufferings. Knowing that it will unleash hell for the whole of humanity. Giving up the apple to the bully, while we fetch the teacher, may be better, than beating each other up over it. Who is the teacher, the international community, the apple Ukraine.


But right now Ukrainians die. While we squabble. At least preserve them from death, while we seek a diplomatic solution.

I have been thinking that rather than a full-blown surrender. That Ukraine demilitarises itself, in line with Putin’s demands. That Ukraine has no military but maintains its government. And that international peacekeeping forces (approved by Russia so they do not feel threatened) be deployed into Eastern Ukraine to prevent rebel elements from harassing the legitimate government of Ukraine. Under these conditions, Russia must withdraw from Ukraine.
No, simply no.
A bully is never right, nor should we ever side with them in order to appease them.
By your own logic, you would have told David to lay down his arms against Goliath.
 
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dqhall

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Rom 12:17-19 Don't mistreat someone who has mistreated you. But try to earn the respect of others, and do your best to live at peace with everyone. Dear friends, don't try to get even. Let God take revenge.

It is not too late for peace. We should be pushing for a peaceful resolution. How to do that is not always clear or easy to see in the midst of conflict.


However, this is my opinion. It is my belief that the only way to end the conflict is to temporarily surrender the region of Ukraine, to not fight for it militarily, but rather through diplomacy. Why do I say this, this is primarily a humanitarian issue. War is raging and taking lives. The fact is that every moment the war continues more lives are lost, more people maimed, more families with lost ones separated and lost. Jesus made a comment, in the Bible.


Luke 14:31-32 What will a king do if he has only ten thousand soldiers to defend himself against a king who is about to attack him with twenty thousand soldiers? Before he goes out to battle, won't he first sit down and decide if he can win? If he thinks he won't be able to defend himself, he will send messengers and ask for peace while the other king is still a long way off.


The above verse, show us what wisdom is. When a battle is a losing one, or one that is likely to be lost, a wise king will send a peace delegation, to protect his own life and that of his people. What is it that we are up against? What are we losing? A humanitarian tragedy for Ukraine, and if it continues war that spills over to become a Global Conflict.


What will pacify this? I would suggest that giving into Putin’s demands for the short term would pacify his need for war. We as the West need to assure Putin that don’t have his nation as a target. Unfortunately, that means convincing Ukraine to give in to Russia, so that we can return to the negotiating table. A negotiation on behalf of Ukraine.


I know many would hate this idea. But we have to ask ourselves, if we just sit idly by and watch Ukraine be ravaged, while we sit in comfort, saying “Fight your own war”, what have we achieved. Either surrender Ukraine to stop violence and death, and return to the peace table. Or do more to support Ukraine militarily, and share in their sufferings. Knowing that it will unleash hell for the whole of humanity. Giving up the apple to the bully, while we fetch the teacher, may be better, than beating each other up over it. Who is the teacher, the international community, the apple Ukraine.


But right now Ukrainians die. While we squabble. At least preserve them from death, while we seek a diplomatic solution.

I have been thinking that rather than a full-blown surrender. That Ukraine demilitarises itself, in line with Putin’s demands. That Ukraine has no military but maintains its government. And that international peacekeeping forces (approved by Russia so they do not feel threatened) be deployed into Eastern Ukraine to prevent rebel elements from harassing the legitimate government of Ukraine. Under these conditions, Russia must withdraw from Ukraine.
The only one attacking Ukraine is the Russian alliance. Some Ukrainian families were able to flee to NATO nations before the border was closed to fighting age men.

Putin promised he would not attack Ukraine. Later Putin made a speech saying he was going to decapitate the leadership of Ukraine. Faced with decapitation they decided to fight.

Putin makes military service for young men mandatory. They may wish to opt out of military service, but can’t. Russians protesting the war have been arrested. According to Amnesty International, Russians tortured prisoners.

If you want to help Ukrainian victims of the war, you may donate to the International Committee of the Red Cross.
International Committee of the Red Cross
 
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FutureAndAHope

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No, simply no.
A bully is never right, nor should we ever side with them in order to appease them.
By your own logic, you would have told David to lay down his arms against Goliath.

It is not that simple, Russia obviously fears the West, and is trying to exert its influence over the region. Their claims were that they wanted to demilitarise the region, it would appear from news I heard, that since 2014, the United States has provided over $2.5 billion in military aid to Ukraine, following the Russian annexation of Crimea. This military spending could very well be fueling Russia's fears of the West, and Ukraine. They mentioned before the war that they had "security concerns".

The plan above to appease Russia by demilitarizing the region may well be enough to rest Putin's fears. If we do not seek to genuinely address these fears, the war may spill over into something much bigger.

To further state why I think Ukraine is better to surrender its army. I quote what I put on Facebook:

Start Quote
=======

Seeing I do not have a direct line to heaven, I don't know what my "Christian" response should be to the Ukraine crisis. However, I do wonder, although it is unfair, I feel Ukraine should surrender, and take the fight to the international arena, to fight for its nation diplomatically. In doing so it will prevent the spread of violence, and save the lives of their people. Fighting will just take many Ukrainian lives, and not bring them victory. Russia will eventually control the region (in the short term), but the question is how many lives must be lost in the meantime. Nation pride/spirit is not worth it if they will eventually lose. War kills, war maims.

Am I saying just capitulate the area to become a part of Russia? No. But rather, that reality sets in, that the end game is seen. If all our nations are going to do is apply sanctions, the war will eventually be lost. Surrender will save lives. Surrender will bring the same outcome without loss of life.

End Quote
=======

That post is a little out of date, I now feel as I stated in my first post that: ...
I believe to save lives, Ukraine needs to demilitarises itself, in line with Putin’s demands. That Ukraine has no substantial military force but is allowed to maintain its current government. To stop the conflict in Eastern Ukraine, that international peacekeeping forces (approved by Russia so they do not feel threatened) be deployed there to prevent rebel elements from harassing the legitimate, and current, government of Ukraine. Under these conditions, Russia must withdraw from Ukraine, and cease to support subversive elements.
 
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hislegacy

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Rom 12:17-19 Don't mistreat someone who has mistreated you. But try to earn the respect of others, and do your best to live at peace with everyone. Dear friends, don't try to get even. Let God take revenge.

It is not too late for peace. We should be pushing for a peaceful resolution. How to do that is not always clear or easy to see in the midst of conflict.


However, this is my opinion. It is my belief that the only way to end the conflict is to temporarily surrender the region of Ukraine, to not fight for it militarily, but rather through diplomacy. Why do I say this, this is primarily a humanitarian issue. War is raging and taking lives. The fact is that every moment the war continues more lives are lost, more people maimed, more families with lost ones separated and lost. Jesus made a comment, in the Bible.


Luke 14:31-32 What will a king do if he has only ten thousand soldiers to defend himself against a king who is about to attack him with twenty thousand soldiers? Before he goes out to battle, won't he first sit down and decide if he can win? If he thinks he won't be able to defend himself, he will send messengers and ask for peace while the other king is still a long way off.


The above verse, show us what wisdom is. When a battle is a losing one, or one that is likely to be lost, a wise king will send a peace delegation, to protect his own life and that of his people. What is it that we are up against? What are we losing? A humanitarian tragedy for Ukraine, and if it continues war that spills over to become a Global Conflict.


What will pacify this? I would suggest that giving into Putin’s demands for the short term would pacify his need for war. We as the West need to assure Putin that don’t have his nation as a target. Unfortunately, that means convincing Ukraine to give in to Russia, so that we can return to the negotiating table. A negotiation on behalf of Ukraine.


I know many would hate this idea. But we have to ask ourselves, if we just sit idly by and watch Ukraine be ravaged, while we sit in comfort, saying “Fight your own war”, what have we achieved. Either surrender Ukraine to stop violence and death, and return to the peace table. Or do more to support Ukraine militarily, and share in their sufferings. Knowing that it will unleash hell for the whole of humanity. Giving up the apple to the bully, while we fetch the teacher, may be better, than beating each other up over it. Who is the teacher, the international community, the apple Ukraine.


But right now Ukrainians die. While we squabble. At least preserve them from death, while we seek a diplomatic solution.

I have been thinking that rather than a full-blown surrender. That Ukraine demilitarises itself, in line with Putin’s demands. That Ukraine has no military but maintains its government. And that international peacekeeping forces (approved by Russia so they do not feel threatened) be deployed into Eastern Ukraine to prevent rebel elements from harassing the legitimate government of Ukraine. Under these conditions, Russia must withdraw from Ukraine.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. It is stated clearly and I can tell you have put time and consideration into it.

However, it is obvious the Ukrainian population doesn’t share in that opinion.

That is evidenced by their willingness to fight and die for their country and freedom.

last I looked we in the uS do not have the ability to make them do anything including fight or lay down their arms and surrender their freedom.
 
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hislegacy

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I believe to save lives, Ukraine needs to demilitarises itself, in line with Putin’s demands.

They did that with Stalin and 4,00,000 people died.

Appeasement does not work.
 
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iarwain

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By your own logic, you would have told David to lay down his arms against Goliath.
Well, not exactly, The One David had with him was greater than Goliath. Goliath never had a chance.

However, Ukraine has decided to defend itself, to not give up its country. It's not crazy for a smaller country to fend off a superpower. Look at what North Vietnam did to us, and what Afghanistan did to us AND the USSR. The superpower will win the battles, but keeping control and keeping guerillas from harassing them is another thing altogether. That is Ukraine's decision, and apparently they want to defend themselves.

The question is do we help them? Obviously we can't get too direct with the Russians or we risk setting off a much bigger catastrophe. But I'm not so sure telling them to give in to the Russians is such a great idea either. If the Ukraine rolls over, who's to say who Putin attacks next? The best thing for us (outside of a negotiated peace or Ukraine victory) is for the Russians to get bogged down there for many years to come.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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They did that with Stalin and 4,00,000 people died.

Appeasement does not work.

You are right that it may not work. But there is a slender chance of peace and preserving life without compromise. Let's have a look at this idea:

I believe to save lives, Ukraine needs to demilitarises itself, in line with Putin’s demands. That Ukraine has no substantial military force but is allowed to maintain its current government.

Putin was partly uneased by the support for Ukraine coming from the West prior to this conflict. Sure there should not have been subversive Russian elements in the region in the first place, and Crimeria should not have been anexed. But that is for another day. Right now we need to look at his thinking, he is fearful of too much Western power in Ukraine, hence him not wanting them to go to Europe. By submitting to his demands to stop pumping weapons into the region, and to remove western influence, we put to bed the fear that we are looking for a fight.

This plan allows for Ukraine to maintain it's current governance, people's lives can go on as normal. They just will not have a large army. But at this point what is more important? An army or the lives of your people.

To stop the conflict in Eastern Ukraine, that international peacekeeping forces (approved by Russia so they do not feel threatened) be deployed there to prevent rebel elements from harassing the legitimate, and current, government of Ukraine.

Peacekeepers from the International community enforce peace between the separatists and the Ukranians. This force could be funded by the money normally spent on the domestic military. Note the force would be international, not Russian, but approved by Russia, so as not to cause tension, a tension that would occur by putting US bases in Ukraine as an example.


Under these conditions, Russia must withdraw from Ukraine, and cease to support subversive elements.

Russia given security guarantees above would leave the region to self-governance, and stop subversive activities in the state. Ukraine would still be Ukraine but just no longer be at war. The war would end. The conflict in the East is stopped, by the international community.

Because Russia is not occupying or governing the country, no threat would be on their people.
 
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hislegacy

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You are right that it may not work. But there is a slender chance of peace and preserving life without compromise. Let's have a look at this idea:



Putin was partly uneased by the support for Ukraine coming from the West prior to this conflict. Sure there should not have been subversive Russian elements in the region in the first place, and Crimeria should not have been anexed. But that is for another day. Right now we need to look at his thinking, he is fearful of too much Western power in Ukraine, hence him not wanting them to go to Europe. By submitting to his demands to stop pumping weapons into the region, and to remove western influence, we put to bed the fear that we are looking for a fight.

This plan allows for Ukraine to maintain it's current governance, people's lives can go on as normal. They just will not have a large army. But at this point what is more important? An army or the lives of your people.



Peacekeepers from the International community enforce peace between the separatists and the Ukranians. This force could be funded by the money normally spent on the domestic military. Note the force would be international, not Russian, but approved by Russia, so as not to cause tension, a tension that would occur by putting US bases in Ukraine as an example.




Russia given security guarantees above would leave the region to self-governance, and stop subversive activities in the state. Ukraine would still be Ukraine but just no longer be at war. The war would end. The conflict in the East is stopped, by the international community.

Because Russia is not occupying or governing the country, no threat would be on their people.

you assume too much. There is no one in a position of authority recommending anything that even remotely resembles your thoughts.

Here is the issues as I see them.

1. Your position is not based in reality
2. Putin is on a quest to re establish the Russian Empire - that means he want Ukraine under his rule.
3. Putin has demonstrated, even within the last week that he cannot be trusted. Remember just a week ago he said he was withdrawing his troops.

Your plan is not tenable in real life. It is reminiscent of the words coming from the League of Nations in the 30"s - if we just give him Austria we will avoid bloodshed - followed by Poland -

Appeasement only enables and emboldens tyrants like Putin.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Your plan is not tenable in real life. It is reminiscent of the words coming from the League of Nations in the 30"s - if we just give him Austria we will avoid bloodshed - followed by Poland -

Appeasement only enables and emboldens tyrants like Putin.

There are some differences here, for a start it is not giving Ukraine to Russia, Ukraine remains under its own sovereign government. But that said, yes, it is giving in to his demands, which could embolden him. But that is "could", while could remains we need to be pushing for peace.

The only option at the moment is war. With the plan I am presenting, at least there is a chance of normalization. If the step emboldens nations to more evil, the emboldement will only result in what we have now which is war (again).
 
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hislegacy

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The only option at the moment is war. With the plan I am presenting, at least there is a chance of normalization. If the step emboldens nations to more evil, the emboldement will only result in what we have now which is war (again).

well good luck with that.
 
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