Thoughts on Tibetan Buddhism and Russian Orthodoxy/Lutheranism

Jacque_Pierre22

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So lately I have been studying the different forms of Buddhism, because I noticed a lot of connections between Christianity and Buddhism. This is just for info. Orthodoxy has hesychasm simlar to the meditative practices of Buddhism, but interestingly has icons just like how Tibetans have a lot of very colorful paintings, and icons used in their practice. The US and Russia are similar in that Tibetan Buddhism is very popular here as compared to Shin in Japan; There are 3 regions in Russia where Buddhism is the native religion, as well as Bhutan, and Mongolia which uses Cyrillic. There is a Lutheran theologian named Paul S Knitter who believes in the usefulness of Buddhism. There are others who have studied in from the Lutheran side. A Lutheran systematic theologian named Tillich was a big influence on such research, Tillich was influenced by Boehme, and both have influenced the Russian religious philosophy; however, these are disparate fields studied in isolation, not together so to piece the connections together comes with a lot of time. There is research on sunyata for example in the understanding of the trinity (this is all at the philosophical/systematic level). One of the main draws of Lutherans/ Orthodoxy to studying Buddhism is the idea of universal atonement since Buddhists seek to liberate all people, unlike a Reformed who believes only the elect can be saved. This idea of the gospel being "for you" in Lutherans and "radical Lutheranism" is believed to be key because without it, preaching the gospel to all seems disingenous (from a Lutheran view); however, Orthodoxy and Buddhism are most similar in the belief of free will, meditative practice, and iconography. I know there is interaction between Japanese "Kyoto" school shin Buddhists and Lutherans with Nishida at the philosophical level, but am curious as to why Lutherans have devoted so much time to the Shin branch rather than the Tibetan branch of Buddhism, or the philosophical arguments. There is a new Vietnamese religion called "Caodaism" which is similar to Christianity in that it is monotheistic, coming from a Mahayana country in Vietnam. This is mainly why I remain in the Lutheran camp despite agreeing with Presbyterians on some points because I can't see how many can be saved under such a branch, however, it seems that the most global impact on the world has been Lutheranism in multiple continents. Even in my rural area there is a Tibetan Buddhist temple area but no OPC churches or Eldona churches, showing the far reach of Tibetan Buddhism is actually greater than some denominations of Protestantism. Anyway, these are just some musings I have. I think meditation might be useful for anxiety but haven't tried it. It seems to be popular in evangelicalism, which makes sense when you consider the evangelicals, many of whom, convert to Eastern Orthodoxy, but then again, that kinda of contradicts Seraphim Rose's book railing against Hinduism (Tibetan Buddhism has more Hindu influence than Theravada and Shin); anyway, thought this was interesting so if anyone cares to muse with me, I'm not drawing any real conclusions from this.
 

FireDragon76

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Paul Knitter is a former Catholic priest, theologian, and professor. He is not Lutheran.

Paul Tillich was only Lutheran in an an historical sense. In Germany, both historic Lutheran and Reformed churches participate in the same state people's church (the EKD, the Evangelical Church of Germany) and are both known as practicing the same religion, which is just called "Evangelical". Theologically, Tillich was following liberal Protestants, such as Schleiermacher, who considered religion, as God-consciousness, a universal phenomenon, with Christianity being a particular expression of that universality.
 
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Jacque_Pierre22

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Paul Knitter is a former Catholic priest, theologian, and professor. He is not Lutheran.

Paul Tillich was only Lutheran in an an historical sense. In Germany, both historic Lutheran and Reformed churches participate in the same state people's church (the EKD, the Evangelical Church of Germany) and are both known as practicing the same religion, which is just called "Evangelical". Theologically, Tillich was following liberal Protestants, such as Schleiermacher, who considered religion, as God-consciousness, a universal phenomenon, with Christianity being a particular expression of that universality.
interesting; you seem to know a lot.
 
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FireDragon76

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interesting; you seem to know a lot.

I know alot about Christianity, Buddhism, and the philosophy of religion.

The quote by Alfred North Whitehead comes to mind on the question you ask, "Christianity is religion seeking philosophy. Buddhism is philosophy seeking religion".

The late medieval German mystic, Meister Eckhart, is the Christian mystic whose insights most closely match those of Buddhism.
 
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Jacque_Pierre22

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I know alot about Christianity, Buddhism, and the philosophy of religion.

The quote by Alfred North Whitehead comes to mind on the question you ask, "Christianity is religion seeking philosophy. Buddhism is philosophy seeking religion".

The late medieval German mystic, Meister Eckhart, is the Christian mystic whose insights most closely match those of Buddhism.
wasn't he the teacher of Martin Luther? and Albertus Magnus taught Aquinas, who was into magic and alchemy, actually it was Harun al Raschid's interest in alchemy that spurred the Islamic golden age and interest in science and books from ancient Greece
 
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public hermit

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The late medieval German mystic, Meister Eckhart, is the Christian mystic whose insights most closely match those of Buddhism.

The parallels are remarkable. But there's no intimate connection as far as I can tell and have never heard anyone argue otherwise. You can trace his thought straight back through the Christian faith, even back to Origen, according to Ilaria Ramell.

I think if you want to find a connection between eastern religion and western mysticism, it goes back to ancient Greece, Plato and perhaps back to Pythagoras. I have no idea, though, if there's any historical to that claim.

I think we first start seeing Buddhism's influence in the early to late modern era. Buddhism and Hinduism, maybe more so. What do you think?

ETA: But those influenced were still, unsurprisingly, German. Schopenhauer, exhibit 1.
 
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FireDragon76

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The parallels are remarkable. But there's no intimate connection as far as I can tell and have never heard anyone argue otherwise. You can trace his thought straight back through the Christian faith, even back to Origen, according to Ilaria Ramell.

Yeah, there's no genetic connection. Still, the parallels are striking.

I think if you want to find a connection between eastern religion and western mysticism, it goes back to ancient Greece, Plato and perhaps back to Pythagoras. I have no idea, though, if there's any historical to that claim.

I think we first start seeing Buddhism's influence in the early to late modern era. Buddhism and Hinduism, maybe more so. What do you think?

ETA: But those influenced were still, unsurprisingly, German. Schopenhauer, exhibit 1.

Schopenhauer was probably one of the first. However, his appropriation was alot darker than how most Buddhists themselves historically viewed the religion, like seeing the glass half-empty vs. half-full.
 
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FireDragon76

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wasn't he the teacher of Martin Luther? and Albertus Magnus taught Aquinas, who was into magic and alchemy, actually it was Harun al Raschid's interest in alchemy that spurred the Islamic golden age and interest in science and books from ancient Greece

No, Luther was not taught by Ekchart directly. One of Eckhart's students, Tauler, wrote the Theologica Germanica, which Luther read. The TG formed alot of lay spirituality in the Friends of God movement in Germany at the time of Luther.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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The EO and Buddhist practices may have similarities but did not influence each other. Meditative and hermetic practice came from the 4th century rise of Christian monasticism with St. Anthony. Iconography also has an early appearance and received its first formal defense by John of Damascus in the 8th century against iconoclasts and Islam.
 
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FireDragon76

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The EO and Buddhist practices may have similarities but did not influence each other. Meditative and hermetic practice came from the 4th century rise of Christian monasticism with St. Anthony. Iconography also has an early appearance and received its first formal defense by John of Damascus in the 8th century against iconoclasts and Islam.

The origins of monasticism may predate Christianity. The Essenes lived a monastic life, but they were a Jewish sect. The entire Near East had wandering ascetics or therapeutiae, whose way of life sounds very similar to the Indian sramanas, and some are recorded to have journeyed as far away as Greek-speaking areas. Some have said Sufi Islam really just reflects Muslim appropriation of pre-Islamic patterns of spirituality that were endemic to the region.

The inscription of Laghman in modern-day Afghanistan was written in Aramaic in 320 BC, and Buddhist missionaries regularly used the Silk Road routes.

 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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The origins of monasticism may predate Christianity. The Essenes lived a monastic life, but they were a Jewish sect. The entire Near East had wandering ascetics or therapeutiae, whose way of life sounds very similar to the Indian sramanas, and some are recorded to have journeyed as far away as Greek-speaking areas. Some have said Sufi Islam really just reflects Muslim appropriation of pre-Islamic patterns of spirituality that were endemic to the region.

The inscription of Laghman in modern-day Afghanistan was written in Aramaic in 320 BC, and Buddhist missionaries regularly used the Silk Road routes.

Agreed. I'm more pointing out that Christian monasticism began formally with St. Anthony. There were earlier ascetics within Christianity and as you say, the Essenes. However, I would think that early Christians would be following examples of Christ's days in the desert, or of the OT prophets in the desert, rather than Buddhist or Hindu practices.
 
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Agreed. I'm more pointing out that Christian monasticism began formally with St. Anthony. There were earlier ascetics within Christianity and as you say, the Essenes. However, I would think that early Christians would be following examples of Christ's days in the desert, or of the OT prophets in the desert, rather than Buddhist or Hindu practices.

There's debate among scholars how early Christians lived. Early Christians seemed to have expected an immanent apocalypse. There were all kinds of movements like the Montanists that were rigorists. The Shepherd of Hermas also seems to reflect something like this spirit.

Monasticism in the style of St. Anthony seems like a response to Christianity becoming popular, established, and more accommodating.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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There's debate among scholars how early Christians lived. Early Christians seemed to have expected an immanent apocalypse. There were all kinds of movements like the Montanists that were rigorists. The Shepherd of Hermas also seems to reflect something like this spirit.

Monasticism in the style of St. Anthony seems like a response to Christianity becoming popular, established, and more accommodating.
Right, and so after Christianity becomes accepted, there is the decline of red martyrdom, and the rise of white martyrdom, that is monasticism.

These degrees were mentioned by Pope Gregory I in Homilia in Evangelia; in it he wrote of "three modes of martyrdom, designated by the colors, red, blue (or green), and white".[41] A believer was bestowed the title of red martyr due to either torture or violent death by religious persecution. The term "white martyrdom" was used by the Church Father Jerome, "for those such as desert hermits who aspired to the condition of martyrdom through strict asceticism".[41] Blue (or green) martyrdom "involves the denial of desires, as through fasting and penitent labors without necessarily implying a journey or complete withdrawal from life".[41]
 
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Jacque_Pierre22

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I always thought that Ephraim the Syrian was an early hesychast and suspected that the Nestorians and Easterners traveled along to Western China; also Brahmi and Devanagari came from Aramaic maybe
Brahmi script - Wikipedia
 
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Nick Moser

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So lately I have been studying the different forms of Buddhism, because I noticed a lot of connections between Christianity and Buddhism. This is just for info. Orthodoxy has hesychasm simlar to the meditative practices of Buddhism, but interestingly has icons just like how Tibetans have a lot of very colorful paintings, and icons used in their practice. The US and Russia are similar in that Tibetan Buddhism is very popular here as compared to Shin in Japan; There are 3 regions in Russia where Buddhism is the native religion, as well as Bhutan, and Mongolia which uses Cyrillic. There is a Lutheran theologian named Paul S Knitter who believes in the usefulness of Buddhism. There are others who have studied in from the Lutheran side. A Lutheran systematic theologian named Tillich was a big influence on such research, Tillich was influenced by Boehme, and both have influenced the Russian religious philosophy; however, these are disparate fields studied in isolation, not together so to piece the connections together comes with a lot of time. There is research on sunyata for example in the understanding of the trinity (this is all at the philosophical/systematic level). One of the main draws of Lutherans/ Orthodoxy to studying Buddhism is the idea of universal atonement since Buddhists seek to liberate all people, unlike a Reformed who believes only the elect can be saved. This idea of the gospel being "for you" in Lutherans and "radical Lutheranism" is believed to be key because without it, preaching the gospel to all seems disingenous (from a Lutheran view); however, Orthodoxy and Buddhism are most similar in the belief of free will, meditative practice, and iconography. I know there is interaction between Japanese "Kyoto" school shin Buddhists and Lutherans with Nishida at the philosophical level, but am curious as to why Lutherans have devoted so much time to the Shin branch rather than the Tibetan branch of Buddhism, or the philosophical arguments. There is a new Vietnamese religion called "Caodaism" which is similar to Christianity in that it is monotheistic, coming from a Mahayana country in Vietnam. This is mainly why I remain in the Lutheran camp despite agreeing with Presbyterians on some points because I can't see how many can be saved under such a branch, however, it seems that the most global impact on the world has been Lutheranism in multiple continents. Even in my rural area there is a Tibetan Buddhist temple area but no OPC churches or Eldona churches, showing the far reach of Tibetan Buddhism is actually greater than some denominations of Protestantism. Anyway, these are just some musings I have. I think meditation might be useful for anxiety but haven't tried it. It seems to be popular in evangelicalism, which makes sense when you consider the evangelicals, many of whom, convert to Eastern Orthodoxy, but then again, that kinda of contradicts Seraphim Rose's book railing against Hinduism (Tibetan Buddhism has more Hindu influence than Theravada and Shin); anyway, thought this was interesting so if anyone cares to muse with me, I'm not drawing any real conclusions from this.
I think there's many good aspects to Buddhism however, salvation can only be found in Jesus Christ.
 
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