Thoughts on this...from Catholics or anyone else?

[FireDragon76]

. It all boils down to motives (after salvation). Some can be the greatest person ever, but with faith in Christ it means nothing.

You've just dismissed motive altogether from consideration, actually. You are saying God is so petty he only cares about words or ideologies, not the actual intentions of a person.

I'm no friend of atheism, either, and I do think belief in Jesus Christ matters, so I'm not "politically correct" or a relativist or anything like that. I just don't believe that every single atheist is damned. Likewise, Jesus Christ himself tells us that there will be many that call themselves "Christian" that will not make the cut.

 

[Arcoe]

The only problem with that is that no one has a good heart by nature. That's why we need a new heart.

And that is why God has shown us how to obtain a new heart. : )

And any person who freely wills, can make themselves a new heart.

 

[reformed ttL]

And that is why God has shown us how to obtain a new heart. : )

And any person who freely wills, can make themselves a new heart.

ahh the great doctor,,, man

 

[Arcoe]

ahh the great doctor,,, man

The Great Physician gave the cure for the old, deceitful heart. Man can obey and make himself a new heart, or be stubborn and try to do it by his way of thinking.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

Is this fairly reported? Is the Pope being taken out of context? Or is he actually proclaiming that "doing good" will lead everyone to heaven, atheists included?

We have no reason to not believe that Pope Francis is a godly man who loves God. With his good works/good fruit, or anyone's for that matter, the determining factor or motivation is the love of God in the heart. Good works are performed by evil people all the time, yet the ungodly man has no love for God in his heart. The spiritual sacrifice of denying the self, picking up your cross, and following Christ does not abide in the wicked.


Since believing in Jesus Christ, The One sent by God, is the only way to The Father, we we must obey the teaching of Christ Jesus and enter in through the narrow gate as instructed. This narrow-mindedness originates with God Himself, not man. The way to Heaven is clear, isn't it ?

 

[Ignatius21]

Obviously the Pope still believes that even if an atheist is saved, he will be saved by and through Christ, almost "in spite of himself" so to speak. He isn't saying that good works, in themselves, are handy for racking up some sort of Salvation Points that will get atheists into the gate.

Does this imply a belief on his part that there will be another chance, before the last judgment, for people to repent and believe?

Does anyone here believe that there will be a chance for someone to believe after earthly death but before Christ's second coming?

And as for reasons why atheists are what they are, I've known a fair number of them now, and generally speaking they've fallen into two categories. One set just seems self-assured and arrogant, and their attitude toward any supposed God is "You ain't the boss of me!" I very often find that they have little moral compass beyond what either creates enjoyment or avoids pain. The other set rejected "God" because of some usually bad upbringing where God was just the harsh lawgiver who watched their every move so he could smack them down into hell. Or they had a given faith shoved down their throats by families who never lived by it themselves. Often these people were more ethical and compassionate than many who called themselves Christians, and I always wondered, "If they were just shown a true example of humility and love like Christ commanded...would they come back?"

 

[elman]

You can't be saved without being united to Christ. You can't be united to Christ without personal faith/trust in Christ.

All atheists are going to hell.

According to you we cannot have personal faith/trust in Christ. It is a gift of God and that is the only wAY we can have it.

 

[elman]

And how would you define "the wicked?"

The same way Jesus does--unloving. Matt 25.

 

[elman]

None are righteous (Romans 3:10).

Salvation is not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Jesus is the ONLY way, truth, and life (John 14:6).

How do you explain there are righteous in Ezekiel 18?
Jesus taught eternal life is not given to the wicked. If Jesus is the only truth, maybe you should listed to that teaching.

 

[elman]

But no Bible verse supports it either. And that's the important issue. You seem to think that God will save everyone because of His mercy love etc. but that is simply not the case there is nothing in scripture that supports this belief. On the contrary it refutes this very ideology.

Rom. 3:23; "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Rom. 6:23; "For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ".

Rom. 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness".

Rom. 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God ".

These are just a few verses. So what about God being all warm and fuzzy and going to save everyone no matter of their belief?

Read Matt 25 where Jesus is separating the sheep and the goats. Where is belief discussed in that passage?

 

[steamforthis]

How do you explain there are righteous in Ezekiel 18?

Psalm 14:3

Do you really think Ezekiel 18 is referring to a perfectly sinless man?

That is clearly not the case.

Jesus taught eternal life is not given to the wicked. If Jesus is the only truth, maybe you should listed to that teaching.

Romans 3:22-23.

 

[elman]

=steamforthis;63148770]Psalm 14:3

Do you really think Ezekiel 18 is referring to a perfectly sinless man?

That is clearly not the case.

I agree.

Romans 3:22-23.1 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Do you think this says the wicked shall be given eternal life?
Did Job believe in Jesus? Job was righteous. Did the righteous in Ezekiel 18 believe in Jesus? Did the sheep in Matt 25 believe in Jesus? How do you explain what Paul means by believe in Jesus and faith, when Paul says in 1 Cor 13:2 that faith without love is worthless. When Peter said God was no respecter of persons in Acts 10:34 did he say God accepted all men of every nation who believed in Jesus? Did Peter think believing in Jesus was "doing the right thing"?

 

[steamforthis]

Do you think this says the wicked shall be given eternal life?

John 3:16. Anyone who believes will be given eternal life.

Did Job believe in Jesus?

Job did not know the exact name "Jesus". However, he acknowleged that he was an imperfect sinner. He trusted God to take care of his sin. This was taken care of on the cross.

Job was righteous.

Job was righteous? Romans 3:10 says otherwise.

You are picking out words. It's referring to the fact that he was devoted to God. It doesn't mean he was rewarded righteousness for his works.

Did the righteous in Ezekiel 18 believe in Jesus?

Again, Ezekiel 18 is not referring to that.

Did the sheep in Matt 25 believe in Jesus?

Yes, I would say so. Since Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9), I would be positive.

John 3:16, "whosoever believes". Now, if you truly believed, naturally you would love God. Jesus said "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

He is not advocating works salvation. No one has been able to keep the commandments fully. (Romans 3:23).

That would be ignoring the fact that He is the only way (John 14:6), and would render His death null.

How do you explain what Paul means by believe in Jesus and faith, when Paul says in 1 Cor 13:2 that faith without love is worthless.

Simple. If you have true faith, you will love.

The fruits reveal the heart.

When Peter said God was no respecter of persons in Acts 10:34 did he say God accepted all men of every nation who believed in Jesus?

John 3:16. "For whosoever believes"...

Did Peter think believing in Jesus was "doing the right thing"?

So, believing in Jesus is wrong all of the sudden?

 

[elman]

Originally Posted by elman View Post

Do you think this says the wicked shall be given eternal life?

John 3:16. Anyone who believes will be given eternal life.

Do the wicked believe? Do Demons believe?

Did Job believe in Jesus?

Job did not know the exact name "Jesus". However, he acknowleged that he was an imperfect sinner. He trusted God to take care of his sin. This was taken care of on the cross.

Job was declared righteous before the cross. Nothing in scripture says Job was only righteous after the cross.

Job was righteous.

Job was righteous? Romans 3:10 says otherwise.

So what do you do about the Bible saying Job was righteous? Do you believe the bible contradicts itself?

You are picking out words. It's referring to the fact that he was devoted to God. It doesn't mean he was rewarded righteousness for his works.

Where do you find that in the Book of Job?

Did the righteous in Ezekiel 18 believe in Jesus?

Again, Ezekiel 18 is not referring to that.

What is the righteous in Ezekiel referring to? Shall we let Ezekiel answer that question?
The one who sins is the one who will die.

5 “Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife
or have sexual relations with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between two parties.
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign Lord.

Did the sheep in Matt 25 believe in Jesus?

Yes, I would say so. Since Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9), I would be positive.

Explain why the sheep did not know that loving others is loving Jesus.

John 3:16, "whosoever believes". Now, if you truly believed, naturally you would love God. Jesus said "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

Jesus also said I give you a new Commandment--to love each other.

He is not advocating works salvation. No one has been able to keep the commandments fully. (Romans 3:23).

He is advocating a works salvation--not that we can earn or deserve eternal life since we all fall short. Being unable to be perfect and deserve and earn eternal life does not mean the Bible teaches our wicked choices have nothing to do with our receiving the gift of eternal life. Yes it is a gift. Yes receiving eternal life is based on grace because we cannot be without sin, but we can be without the sin that leads to death. First John five. We can chose to turn from being unloving to being loving and if we do we will live and not die. Ezekiel 18. If we do not we will die and not live. We can control being wicked and having no hope of receiving the gift of eternal life. We can control our being loving and being sheep upon whom Jesus can gift eternal life.
That would be ignoring the fact that He is the only way (John 14:6), and would render His death null.

How do you explain what Paul means by believe in Jesus and faith, when Paul says in 1 Cor 13:2 that faith without love is worthless.

Simple. If you have true faith, you will love.

And if you do not love you do not have faith.

The fruits reveal the heart.

When Peter said God was no respecter of persons in Acts 10:34 did he say God accepted all men of every nation who believed in Jesus?

John 3:16. "For whosoever believes"...

Are you going to deal with Act 10:34 or simply ignore it?

Did Peter think believing in Jesus was "doing the right thing"?

So, believing in Jesus is wrong all of the sudden?

Do you invent this out of the air to avoid the teaching of Peter? Nothing I have ever posted or said justifies the idea that I believe believing in Jesus is wrong.

 

[steamforthis]

Do the wicked believe? Do Demons believe?

That is irrelevant.

You asked if the wicked can be given eternal life. I said to all that believe.

Did Job believe in Jesus?

Yes, more or less. I would say the equivalent. He acknowleged his sin and trusted God to care for Him.

Job was declared righteous before the cross. Nothing in scripture says Job was only righteous after the cross.

Galatians 2:21.

If Job was justified without the cross, we don't need the cross. Jesus died in vain according to you.

I doubt an infinite being is bound by time.

So what do you do about the Bible saying Job was righteous? Do you believe the bible contradicts itself?

So what do you do about Romans 3:10? Think logically.

If Job was blameless, why did God allow Satan to afflict him? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Where do you find that in the Book of Job?

Since we are justified by Christ alone, it is a reasonable conclusion, no?

What is the righteous in Ezekiel referring to? Shall we let Ezekiel answer that question?
The one who sins is the one who will die.

Romans 3:23. We all sin.

Notice Ezekiel says "suppose".

Explain why the sheep did not know that loving others is loving Jesus.

There are so many things we do not know, aren't there?

What is the meaning of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats?

Jesus also said I give you a new Commandment--to love each other.

Have you (or I) kept this perfectly? Doubt it.

He is advocating a works salvation--not that we can earn or deserve eternal life since we all fall short. Being unable to be perfect and deserve and earn eternal life does not mean the Bible teaches our wicked choices have nothing to do with our receiving the gift of eternal life. Yes it is a gift. Yes receiving eternal life is based on grace because we cannot be without sin, but we can be without the sin that leads to death. First John five. We can chose to turn from being unloving to being loving and if we do we will live and not die. Ezekiel 18. If we do not we will die and not live. We can control being wicked and having no hope of receiving the gift of eternal life. We can control our being loving and being sheep upon whom Jesus can gift eternal life.

No. Think logically. If it's works salvation, it is a reward, not a gift.

Ephesians 2:8-9.

If it's works salvation, it is no different than any of the millions of other religions in the world.

And if you do not love you do not have faith.

The fruits reveal the heart.

If we love only to get eternal life, it is not true faith nor love. It is ironically selfish.

Works salvation is flawed.

Are you going to deal with Act 10:34 or simply ignore it?

It says God will accept anyone who believes, not just a Jewish person.

Again, John 3:16.

Do you invent this out of the air to avoid the teaching of Peter? Nothing I have ever posted or said justifies the idea that I believe believing in Jesus is wrong.

You asked me if Peter thought believing in Jesus was right.

 

[elman]

Originally Posted by elman View Post

Do the wicked believe? Do Demons believe?

That is irrelevant.

You asked if the wicked can be given eternal life. I said to all that believe.

Ezekiel says the wicked shall die and not live--that is not eternal life.

Did Job believe in Jesus?

Yes, more or less. I would say the equivalent. He acknowleged his sin and trusted God to care for Him.

And he was a man that did the right thing. Acts 10:34

If Job was justified without the cross, we don't need the cross. Jesus died in vain according to you.

I did not say Job was justified without the cross. I do say the cross does not justify the wicked.

So what do you do about the Bible saying Job was righteous? Do you believe the bible contradicts itself?

So what do you do about Romans 3:10? Think logically.

I am thinking logically and you are not addressing the issue.

If Job was blameless, why did God allow Satan to afflict him? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

The whole point of Job is that Job was not being punished for his sins. You are saying his friends were correct. The bible teaches they were not correct.

Where do you find that in the Book of Job?

Since we are justified by Christ alone, it is a reasonable conclusion, no?

No.

What is the righteous in Ezekiel referring to? Shall we let Ezekiel answer that question?
The one who sins is the one who will die.

Romans 3:23. We all sin.

Notice Ezekiel says "suppose".

Suppose does not justify your assumption that Ezekiel is talking about fictitious people who never existed and will never exist.

Explain why the sheep did not know that loving others is loving Jesus.

There are so many things we do not know, aren't there?

Yes and there so many way to avoid addressing an issue you want to avoid.

What is the meaning of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats?

The loving shall live and not die, but the unloving shall die and not live.

Jesus also said I give you a new Commandment--to love each other.

Have you (or I) kept this perfectly? Doubt it.

I did not say I did and that has nothing to do with the fact that there were sheep in existence for Him to admit into the presence of the Father and eternal life.

He is advocating a works salvation--not that we can earn or deserve eternal life since we all fall short. Being unable to be perfect and deserve and earn eternal life does not mean the Bible teaches our wicked choices have nothing to do with our receiving the gift of eternal life. Yes it is a gift. Yes receiving eternal life is based on grace because we cannot be without sin, but we can be without the sin that leads to death. First John five. We can chose to turn from being unloving to being loving and if we do we will live and not die. Ezekiel 18. If we do not we will die and not live. We can control being wicked and having no hope of receiving the gift of eternal life. We can control our being loving and being sheep upon whom Jesus can gift eternal life.

No. Think logically. If it's works salvation, it is a reward, not a gift.

You think logically we can be gifted with something without earning it and yet qualifying for the gift.

If it's works salvation, it is no different than any of the millions of other religions in the world.

If Jesus was teaching divine truth when He taught that we have the hope of inheriting eternal life based on our love for others, and if that is also taught by someone else, it remains divine truth.

And if you do not love you do not have faith.

The fruits reveal the heart.

If we love only to get eternal life, it is not true faith nor love. It is ironically selfish.

So you say, but Jesus did not say that.

Works salvation is flawed.

It is what Jesus and Ezekiel and John and many writers of the bible taught so you are saying their teachings are flawed.

Are you going to deal with Act 10:34 or simply ignore it?

It says God will accept anyone who believes, not just a Jewish person.

It says God will accept any man who does the right thing. Is that how you define believe--doing the right thing?

Again, John 3:16.

Again Acts 10:34.

Do you invent this out of the air to avoid the teaching of Peter? Nothing I have ever posted or said justifies the idea that I believe believing in Jesus is wrong.

You asked me if Peter thought believing in Jesus was right.

I do not believe so. I quoted from Peter that God accepts men from every nation that fear God and do the right thing.

 

[steamforthis]

Ezekiel says the wicked shall die and not live--that is not eternal life.

The wicked are made righteous in Christ. John 11:25, 2 Corinthians 5:21

I did not say Job was justified without the cross. I do say the cross does not justify the wicked.

You said Job was justified by his actions. This is APART from the cross.

I am thinking logically and you are not addressing the issue.

I did. Yet you refuse to address Romans 3:10.

The whole point of Job is that Job was not being punished for his sins. You are saying his friends were correct. The bible teaches they were not correct.

Yet, you are saying Paul is incorrect (Romans 3:10).

Elihu told Job he needs to humble himself. Job was trying to justify himself with his "righteous" actions.

No?

Eph. 2:8-9 disagrees with you.

Suppose does not justify your assumption that Ezekiel is talking about fictitious people who never existed and will never exist.

There is none that are righteous. Romans 3:10.

Yes and there so many way to avoid addressing an issue you want to avoid.

The loving shall live and not die, but the unloving shall die and not live.

What is the meaning of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats?

I did not say I did and that has nothing to do with the fact that there were sheep in existence for Him to admit into the presence of the Father and eternal life.

Because of what Christ has done. Christ alone mediates salvation (1 Tim. 2:5).

You think logically we can be gifted with something without earning it and yet qualifying for the gift.

You think we QUALIFY for salvation? You think you deserve salvation?

Eph. 1:7

Grace | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

If Jesus was teaching divine truth when He taught that we have the hope of inheriting eternal life based on our love for others, and if that is also taught by someone else, it remains divine truth.

Phil. 3:9

So you say, but Jesus did not say that.
It is what Jesus and Ezekiel and John and many writers of the bible taught so you are saying their teachings are flawed.

No. Just no.

Gal. 2:21

Eph. 2:8

John 3:16

Phil. 3:9

etc.

It says God will accept any man who does the right thing. Is that how you define believe--doing the right thing?

If you believe, you will (Matthew 7:20).

Again Acts 10:34.

I do not believe so. I quoted from Peter that God accepts men from every nation that fear God and do the right thing.

A) You have to actually believe in God to revere Him.

B) Christians are shown by their fruit (Matthew 7:20), not saved by their fruit (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[WisdomTree]

Is it just me or did this just turn into an "Arminianism" vs "Calvinism" debate?

 

[elman]

Originally Posted by elman View Post

Ezekiel says the wicked shall die and not live--that is not eternal life.

The wicked are made righteous in Christ. John 11:25, 2 Corinthians 5:21

When considering the rest of the bible do you really believe God choses some wicked people give eternal life to and others he does not?

I did not say Job was justified without the cross. I do say the cross does not justify the wicked.

You said Job was justified by his actions. This is APART from the cross.

The wicked are not saved by the cross apart from being loving.

I am thinking logically and you are not addressing the issue.

I did. Yet you refuse to address Romans 3:10.

No you did not and quoting some other verse is not addressing the issue presented.

The whole point of Job is that Job was not being punished for his sins. You are saying his friends were correct. The bible teaches they were not correct.

Yet, you are saying Paul is incorrect (Romans 3:10).

Avoiding the issue again. Are you unable to focus and address an issue when presented?

Elihu told Job he needs to humble himself. Job was trying to justify himself with his "righteous" actions.

The book of Job is teaching that a righteous man will suffer in this world and when he does that is not because of his sins. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man taught the same lesson. Die you understand the lesson being taught?

No?

Eph. 2:8-9 disagrees with you.

Probably not.

Suppose does not justify your assumption that Ezekiel is talking about fictitious people who never existed and will never exist.

There is none that are righteous. Romans 3:10.

Deal with the issue of there being righteous people in Ezekiel. Quoting Romans does not deal with the issue. It simply brings up the Bible contradicting itself.

Yes and there so many way to avoid addressing an issue you want to avoid.

The loving shall live and not die, but the unloving shall die and not live.

What is the meaning of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats?

I did not say I did and that has nothing to do with the fact that there were sheep in existence for Him to admit into the presence of the Father and eternal life.

Because of what Christ has done. Christ alone mediates salvation (1 Tim. 2:5).

No point in discussing anything with you.

You think logically we can be gifted with something without earning it and yet qualifying for the gift.

You think we QUALIFY for salvation? You think you deserve salvation?

I have already said no. Can you read?

Eph. 1:7

Grace | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

If Jesus was teaching divine truth when He taught that we have the hope of inheriting eternal life based on our love for others, and if that is also taught by someone else, it remains divine truth.

Phil. 3:9

So you say, but Jesus did not say that.

Have you read the story of the Good Samaritan and the verses preceding it? He says exactly that.

It is what Jesus and Ezekiel and John and many writers of the bible taught so you are saying their teachings are flawed.

No. Just no.

Gal. 2:21

Eph. 2:8

John 3:16

Phil. 3:9

etc

.Not addressing the issue.

It says God will accept any man who does the right thing. Is that how you define believe--doing the right thing?

If you believe, you will (Matthew 7:20).

Avoided the issue again.


Again Acts 10:34.

I do not believe so. I quoted from Peter that God accepts men from every nation that fear God and do the right thing.

A) You have to actually believe in God to revere Him.

Where is your scripture?

B) Christians are shown by their fruit (Matthew 7:20), not saved by their fruit (Eph 2:8-9).

The Bible does not say we are not saved by our fruit.

 

[PastorTeacher]

You've just dismissed motive altogether from consideration, actually. You are saying God is so petty he only cares about words or ideologies, not the actual intentions of a person.

I'm no friend of atheism, either, and I do think belief in Jesus Christ matters, so I'm not "politically correct" or a relativist or anything like that. I just don't believe that every single atheist is damned. Likewise, Jesus Christ himself tells us that there will be many that call themselves "Christian" that will not make the cut.

Actually no. Motive only matters when it concerns ones "works". Faith in Christ is still the only way to salvation but "good works" will be judged at the Bema Seat and "motives" play a large role in that.