Thoughts on this...from Catholics or anyone else?

[steamforthis]

I'm relatively sure. I know this stuff from personal experiences in my life, from my use of reason, and oh... of course the Bible.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part in the Bible where it says that we don't even have to believe in God to go to heaven.

I must have also missed the part where it says Jesus is not the only way.

Mind showing this to me?

Sorry for the sarcasm. But seriously, please back it up with scripture.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part in the Bible where it says that we don't even have to believe in God to go to heaven.

I'm not encouraging anybody to be atheist, certainly. I don't think atheism in necessarily good, but it doesn't follow from that, that all atheists are going to hell. Some people are atheists for innocent reasons.

Sorry for the sarcasm. But seriously, please back it up with scripture.

Not all Christians are into "sola scriptura", if it means proof texts for every belief. Theology is rarely so simple- the Trinity cannot be proven from the Bible with only a single verse, for instance. I can't spend pages and pages talking about theology (or maybe I could, in another thread perhaps). Needless to say, inclusivisim is a well-respected opinion in Christian tradition. Justin Martyr immediately comes to mind as someone who articulated this opinion in early post-apostolic times.

 

[steamforthis]

I'm not encouraging anybody to be atheist, certainly. I don't think atheism in necessarily good, but it doesn't follow from that, that all atheists are going to hell. Some people are atheists for innocent reasons.

Since when is there an innocent reason to be an atheist?

Not all Christians are into "sola scriptura", if it means proof texts for every belief.

We can't just make things up without evidence.

I could then say for example, at the age of 150, all humans gain the ability to turn into unicorns at will. No Bible verse refutes this.

 

[Skala]

I'm not encouraging anybody to be atheist, certainly. I don't think atheism in necessarily good, but it doesn't follow from that, that all atheists are going to hell. Some people are atheists for innocent reasons.



Not all Christians are into "sola scriptura", if it means proof texts for every belief. Theology is rarely so simple- the Trinity cannot be proven from the Bible with only a single verse, for instance. I can't spend pages and pages talking about theology (or maybe I could, in another thread perhaps). Needless to say, inclusivisim is a well-respected opinion in Christian tradition. Justin Martyr immediately comes to mind as someone who articulated this opinion in early post-apostolic times.

You can't be saved without being united to Christ. You can't be united to Christ without personal faith/trust in Christ.

All atheists are going to hell.

 

[Tigger45]

There where two criminals crucified with Christ but He only told the one who acknowleged who He was that he would see Him in paradise.

 

[WisdomTree]

You can't be saved without being united to Christ. You can't be united to Christ without personal faith/trust in Christ.

All atheists are going to hell.

No man can decide who goes to hell or not, only God can. We can assume that it's likely all atheists will go to hell, but like I said, it's an assumption.

 

[PastorTeacher]

Since when is there an innocent reason to be an atheist?



We can't just make things up without evidence.

I could then say for example, at the age of 150, all humans gain the ability to turn into unicorns at will. No Bible verse refutes this.

But no Bible verse supports it either. And that's the important issue. You seem to think that God will save everyone because of His mercy love etc. but that is simply not the case there is nothing in scripture that supports this belief. On the contrary it refutes this very ideology.

Rom. 3:23; "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Rom. 6:23; "For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ".

Rom. 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness".

Rom. 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God ".

These are just a few verses. So what about God being all warm and fuzzy and going to save everyone no matter of their belief?

 

[Hammster]

Jesus never is against works done in genuine love: "Whoever is not against us is for us".



I find that sort of thing really hurtful, as I'm far from being "politically correct" in my thinking. I take the Lord Jesus Christ very seriously. I just don't think heaven will only have Christians there.

I would challenge you not to put religious ideologies over the living Lord. God isn't interested in our religion or our piety (even calling him Lord), at the end of our day, he's interested in what's inside our hearts. That is what he'll judge.

I don't believe in salvation by works. I believe Jesus Christ is the savior of all people, especially those that believe. And even those that don't believe, he will have mercy on them I'm sure, because that is in God's nature to be merciful.

Is it in God's nature to be true to His promises?

 

[FireDragon76]

But no Bible verse supports it either. And that's the important issue. You seem to think that God will save everyone because of His mercy love etc. but that is simply not the case there is nothing in scripture that supports this belief. On the contrary it refutes this very ideology.

I'm not saying God saves everyone. But it is in God's character to show mercy and that is indeed part of the tradition that I am familiar with.

These are just a few verses. So what about God being all warm and fuzzy and going to save everyone no matter of their belief?

My views about God are not that he is warm and fuzzy. I'm not the one that believes in "Jesus is your buddy" here.

Is it in God's nature to be true to His promises?

Yes, with the caveat that I don't think understanding the "biblical message" in this area, what God's promise is, is necessarily straightforward.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, with the caveat that I don't think understanding the "biblical message" in this area, what God's promise is, is necessarily straightforward.

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[steamforthis]

But no Bible verse supports it either. And that's the important issue. You seem to think that God will save everyone because of His mercy love etc. but that is simply not the case there is nothing in scripture that supports this belief. On the contrary it refutes this very ideology.

Rom. 3:23; "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Rom. 6:23; "For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ".

Rom. 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness".

Rom. 2:5 "But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God ".

These are just a few verses. So what about God being all warm and fuzzy and going to save everyone no matter of their belief?

That wasn't me that said that God would save everyone.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm not sure what you mean.

I mean that obviously I do believe faith in Jesus Christ is the normative means by which people are saved. But this doesn't mean that I think the Bible teaches that those who are not Christians necessarily are damned.

 

[Hammster]

I mean that obviously I do believe faith in Jesus Christ is the normative means by which people are saved. But this doesn't mean that I think the Bible teaches that those who are not Christians necessarily are damned.

Where does the bible teach of alternatives?

 

[PastorTeacher]

My views about God are not that he is warm and fuzzy. I'm not the one that believes in "Jesus is your buddy" here.

I'm not trying to pick on you I promise. But here is a really cool verse that shows Jesus is our friend. Just some information for ya.

John 15:14-15 "You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you". (NASB)

 

[steamforthis]

I'm not trying to pick on you I promise. But here is a really cool verse that shows Jesus is our friend. Just some information for ya.

John 15:14-15 "You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you". (NASB)

Don't forget verse 13.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm not trying to pick on you I promise. But here is a really cool verse that shows Jesus is our friend. Just some information for ya. (NASB)

OK.. ok... (and actually that is one of my favorite verses).

I just don't necessarily have a "warm and fuzzy" view of God, whatever that means (God has demands on us, sure, but God is also merciful... he makes those demands not because he likes to be cruel, arbitrary- just because he can, but because he wants what is best for us). I just agree with what the Pope Francis said, that if you have a good heart that is what matters to God. You know a tree by its fruit, didn't the Savior say that? I can't believe this is something people argue about, sadly.

 

[Hammster]

OK.. ok... (and actually that is one of my favorite verses).

I just don't necessarily have a "warm and fuzzy" view of God, whatever that means (God has demands on us, sure, but God is also merciful... he makes those demands not because he likes to be cruel, arbitrary- just because he can, but because he wants what is best for us). I just agree with what the Pope Francis said, that if you have a good heart that is what matters to God. You know a tree by its fruit, didn't the Savior say that? I can't believe this is something people argue about, sadly.

The only problem with that is that no one has a good heart by nature. That's why we need a new heart.

 

[FireDragon76]

The only problem with that is that no one has a good heart by nature. That's why we need a new heart.

I can understand that sentiment and I know exactly where you are coming from. I'm just not sure it's sound philosophically (it may be a good preaching point but I'm not sure its a good basis for a systematic theology), or that it is even something the Bible emphasizes that strongly. I see good in people in general, good that isn't just fake or superficial, like the pharisees. I do think this is the result of God's grace and God making us in the divine image. Now, is it salvific in all cases? Maybe not. But I do think there is something true about the catholic/arminian idea of prevenient grace or common grace.

People were created good but we are damaged by the fall. But I believe we are still created for good, that is how we find our fulfillment and what we are redeemed for.

 

[Hammster]

I can understand that sentiment and I know exactly where you are coming from. I'm just not sure it's sound philosophically (it may be a good preaching point but I'm not sure its a good basis for a systematic theology), or that it is even something the Bible emphasizes that strongly. I see good in people in general, good that isn't just fake or superficial, like the pharisees. I do think this is the result of God's grace and God making us in the divine image. Now, is it salvific in all cases? Maybe not. But I do think there is something true about the catholic/arminian idea of prevenient grace or common grace.

People were created good but we are damaged by the fall. But I believe we are still created for good, that is how we find our fulfillment and what we are redeemed for.

It's not a philosophical argument. It's a biblical one.

 

[PastorTeacher]

OK.. ok... (and actually that is one of my favorite verses).

I just don't necessarily have a "warm and fuzzy" view of God, whatever that means (God has demands on us, sure, but God is also merciful... he makes those demands not because he likes to be cruel, arbitrary- just because he can, but because he wants what is best for us). I just agree with what the Pope Francis said, that if you have a good heart that is what matters to God. You know a tree by its fruit, didn't the Savior say that? I can't believe this is something people argue about, sadly.

It is actually a bigger issue then some may think. Having a "good heart" has nothing to do with salvation. Someone can "do good" all they want, but if they do have faith in Christ all that is "filthy rags". It all boils down to motives (after salvation). Some can be the greatest person ever, but with faith in Christ it means nothing.