Thoughts on this...from Catholics or anyone else?

[Ignatius21]

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

Is this fairly reported? Is the Pope being taken out of context? Or is he actually proclaiming that "doing good" will lead everyone to heaven, atheists included?

 

[elman]

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

Is this fairly reported? Is the Pope being taken out of context? Or is he actually proclaiming that "doing good" will lead everyone to heaven, atheists included?

While I consider it dangerous to deny the existence of God, I am not convinced God grants eternal life based on our correct theology. I do see much of the Bible saying eternal life while a gift and not deserved or earned by anyone, will not be given to the wicked and it will be given to the righteous. The righteous are those who do good--are loving to others. I would say it is the more probable guess that God who is love will grant eternal life to the loving atheist and not to the one who claims to love and claims to believe but does not love. I of course do not claim to know what God will do. One thing I am certain of, is no one else--no other human beings knows that either.

 

[WisdomTree]

Taken out of context I reckon. Though the Catholic Church do teach that salvation is possible even for those who are not members of the Church, it is still through the Church and as such due to the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[pshun2404]

Without faith it is impossible to please God!

Paul

 

[WisdomTree]

Without faith it is impossible to please God!

Paul

We are not saved because we please God, rather we are saved because God is so gracious.

 

[elman]

Without faith it is impossible to please God!

Paul

faith without love is worthless.

 

[elman]

We are not saved because we please God, rather we are saved because God is so gracious.

God has not promised to grant eternal life to the wicked. They have no hope.

 

[Ignatius21]

God has not promised to grant eternal life to the wicked. They have no hope.

And how would you define "the wicked?"

 

[steamforthis]

While I consider it dangerous to deny the existence of God, I am not convinced God grants eternal life based on our correct theology. I do see much of the Bible saying eternal life while a gift and not deserved or earned by anyone, will not be given to the wicked and it will be given to the righteous. The righteous are those who do good--are loving to others. I would say it is the more probable guess that God who is love will grant eternal life to the loving atheist and not to the one who claims to love and claims to believe but does not love. I of course do not claim to know what God will do. One thing I am certain of, is no one else--no other human beings knows that either.

None are righteous (Romans 3:10).

Salvation is not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Jesus is the ONLY way, truth, and life (John 14:6).

 

[FireDragon76]

Post-Vatican II Roman Catholicism has the concept of "Anonymous Christian" as a theological opinion. I believe there is biblical and patristic support for this idea, too. I don't see how it would be incompatible with magisterial Protestantism or Eastern Orthodoxy, since they all draw on the same sources.

It's not sufficient to agree intellectually to a belief in God, that kind of belief is not salvific. It stands to reason a lack of such belief also isn't necessarily damnable.

I believe Pope Francis' approach is in many ways more virtous than his predecessor Benedict XVI, who took a confrontational approach to the post-Christian world and alienated some people, reinforcing the worst steorotypes of Catholicism (I really believe because he was so much an academic theologian, he didn't realize the audience he was addressing most of the time). Nobody wants to hear how they are a bad person just because they don't agree with you, and to most non-Christians, that is what "nonbelievers go to Hell" means. That doesn't make Christianity an appealing philosophy when they hear it.

Jesus is the ONLY way, truth, and life (John 14:6).

Taken out of context in this case, I'm afraid- and misquoted too (the use of the word "only" is unwarranted, implying an emphasis that Jesus himself did not). Brian McLaren has a good commentary on that passage- it has nothing to do with the kind of exclusivism that conservative Protestants want it to mean, but it has everything to do with reassuring and guiding Peter, who is asking Christ "Where are you going?". But by all means, if you want to worship a phony savior of theology divorced from sound exegesis, then go for it.

 

[PastorTeacher]

Salvation comes only by faith in Christ. There is nothing that man can do to save himself. If that were possible then God wouldn't have sent His Son to die for us. Saying that good works can lead salvation is fallacy. Saying that atheist can be saved (apart from Christ) is simply biblical ignorance.

 

[Skala]

Salvation comes only by faith in Christ. There is nothing that man can do to save himself. If that were possible then God wouldn't have sent His to die for us. Saying that good works can lead to fallacy. Saying that atheist can be saved (apart from Christ) is simply biblical ignorance.

I agree with you but many people on these forums who call themselves Christians still believe it....

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Taken out of context in this case, I'm afraid- and misquoted too (the use of the word "only" is unwarranted, implying an emphasis that Jesus himself did not).
...but it has everything to do with reassuring and guiding Peter, who is asking Christ "Where are you going?".

Ok, then let us put it back into context (and in the process possibly alienate some) and we will see that steamforthis quoted it quite well...

John 14:2-4
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.”
​

Peter asked the question at the end of chapter 13. His response is above. So tell me, is Jesus ONLY preparing a place for Peter? Is He ONLY coming again to receive Peter? If you say 'yes,' then take a Sharpie marker and cross out this section, for it is not for you. But since other scripture tells us that Jesus is returning for His church I tell you confidently that these verses are for the church, not just Peter.

Also, if you insist 'yes,' then Matthew 16:23 reveals to us that Peter himself is Satan. For your reading here so literally must be performed elsewhere for sure. But I digress.

John 14:5
5 Thomas said to Him...
​

Wait, our context shifted away from Peter? What? And it won't specifically come back to him [when it shifts to Philip in a moment]? Ah, but we can overlook that...it isn't important.

John 14:5-7
5 Thomas *said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
​

Ok, so to Thomas' question Jesus says: "I am the [ONLY] way, and the truth, and the life;"

Darn, I couldn't help inserting 'ONLY' in that statement. It seems to right to do so. Where did I get that?? Oh where could it have come from??

Ahh....the very next statement from Jesus: "NO ONE comes to the Father but through Me."

He DID NOT say "Peter, you can't come to the Father..." or "Thomas, you certainly can't come to the Father...." No. He said "No one....comes to the Father.....except through Me." So what other way is there to the Father? Only one. And who is Jesus talking about? "No one." That's everybody. For not one of 'everybody' will come to the Father except through Jesus.

Not by good works. Not by a loving attitude. Not by helping elderly women across busy streets. Only by the name of Jesus is one saved.

Acts 16:29-32
29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
​

The jailor asked, "what must I do to be saved?"

And they answered him: nothing, it is predetermined whether you will be saved.

Hmm. Nope.

And they answered him: love. All you need to do is love you atheist you!

Hmm. Nope.

They said: You must do.... The jailor has a part to play. He can accept the Word or reject the Word. They said: You must do...believe in the Lord Jesus to be saved.

Brian McLaren has a good commentary on that passage- it has nothing to do with the kind of exclusivism that conservative Protestants want it to mean, but it has everything to do with reassuring and guiding Peter, who is asking Christ "Where are you going?". But by all means, if you want to worship a phony savior of theology divorced from sound exegesis, then go for it.

McLaren? You mean the same McLaren who embraces homosexuality? And did so publicly only after finding out his son was gay? This McLaren? McLaren? One of the leaders of the emergent church? This McLaren? Hmm. No thanks.

And if my disdain is considered "exclusivism," then I'll stick with Jesus and the Bible over politically correct colored views of hypocrisy.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Salvation comes only by faith in Christ. There is nothing that man can do to save himself. If that were possible then God wouldn't have sent His Son to die for us. Saying that good works can lead salvation is fallacy. Saying that atheist can be saved (apart from Christ) is simply biblical ignorance.

Amen!!

 

[FireDragon76]

Ok, then let us put it back into context (and
Not by good works. Not by a loving attitude. Not by helping elderly women across busy streets. Only by the name of Jesus is one saved.

Jesus never is against works done in genuine love: "Whoever is not against us is for us".

And if my disdain is considered "exclusivism," then I'll stick with Jesus and the Bible over politically correct colored views of hypocrisy.

I find that sort of thing really hurtful, as I'm far from being "politically correct" in my thinking. I take the Lord Jesus Christ very seriously. I just don't think heaven will only have Christians there.

I would challenge you not to put religious ideologies over the living Lord. God isn't interested in our religion or our piety (even calling him Lord), at the end of our day, he's interested in what's inside our hearts. That is what he'll judge.

I don't believe in salvation by works. I believe Jesus Christ is the savior of all people, especially those that believe. And even those that don't believe, he will have mercy on them I'm sure, because that is in God's nature to be merciful.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Jesus never is against works done in genuine love: "Whoever is not against us is for us".

But that doesn't make them salvific. There is only one Way to salvation.

I find that sort of thing really hurtful, as I'm far from being "politically correct" in my thinking. I take the Lord Jesus Christ very seriously. I just don't think heaven will only have Christians there.

If "Christian" is defined as 'one who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior' and "non-Christian" is defined as 'one who did not know the name of Jesus Christ but offered only love as a ticket to heaven' then only Christians will be there.

The Bible states that there is only ONE WAY to heaven, and that is by acknowledging Jesus as your Savior. You can do all the "love" you can muster up, but without Jesus you are lost. Doesn't mean that Jesus was against your "love" but rather, and simply, that you are lost without Him.

I would challenge you not to put religious ideologies over the living Lord. God isn't interested in our religion or our piety (even calling him Lord), at the end of our day, he's interested in what's inside our hearts. That is what he'll judge.

Without the Blood of Christ washing away your sin you are not acceptable to be before the Lord. Isaiah 64 tells us that our own righteousness is like filthy rags.

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
​

It is not by our works, but by Jesus' work. It is through His blood we are saved, and not of ourselves. The "good works" that we do have been prepared such as a path that we will follow. This is the process of sanctification...the training of us to fit into our righteousness that Jesus has given us. Without Him we are unacceptable...no matter how much "love" you think you do, no matter how many "good works" you do. These things will NEVER stand up in the presence of a perfect God.

I don't believe in salvation by works. I believe Jesus Christ is the savior of all people, especially those that believe. And even those that don't believe, he will have mercy on them I'm sure, because that is in God's nature to be merciful.

You're sure?? How are you sure? Do you feel a burning in your bosom like a Mormon does? How are you sure of this? For my Bible says that all who have fallen short of the glory of God will not receive Mercy and will not spend eternity in Heaven.

We don't get to make up the rules and regulations. They've already been set before us: choose Life.

 

[FireDragon76]

You're sure?? How are you sure? Do you feel a burning in your bosom like a Mormon does? How are you sure of this? For my Bible says that all who have fallen short of the glory of God will not receive Mercy and will not spend eternity in Heaven.

I'm relatively sure. I know this stuff from personal experiences in my life, from my use of reason, and oh... of course the Bible.

We don't get to make up the rules and regulations. They've already been set before us: choose Life.

I do. But my biblical hermeneutic is not locked to the right and won't budge. That's the most life denying thing you can do. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. My God is not a God of rules and regulations, he is a God of grace.

Your view of sanctification is erroneous Our training for righteousness? No one is truly righteous but God. We can't have the righteousness of God given to us either except in a forensic sense, perhaps. Sanctification is just the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and doing the Mission of God in the world. There are no merit points for being sanctified.

Burning bosom? Hey, maybe the Mormon is saved. I'm not one to judge like that ,that is God's job.

 

[steamforthis]

wrong thread

 

[steamforthis]

Taken out of context in this case, I'm afraid- and misquoted too (the use of the word "only" is unwarranted, implying an emphasis that Jesus himself did not). Brian McLaren has a good commentary on that passage- it has nothing to do with the kind of exclusivism that conservative Protestants want it to mean, but it has everything to do with reassuring and guiding Peter, who is asking Christ "Where are you going?". But by all means, if you want to worship a phony savior of theology divorced from sound exegesis, then go for it.

WHAT? Taken out of context?

You have to be kidding me...

If Jesus is not the only way, I suppose I can curse God with all my heart, be a "good" person, and still go to Heaven?

If Jesus is not the only way, the entire Bible is useless.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I'm relatively sure. I know this stuff from personal experiences in my life, from my use of reason, and oh... of course the Bible.

But one must be careful of "Experiential religion." We do not define who God is nor what He expects "from personal experiences." That can mess us up faster than anything. This is why He gave us an inspired Word, and He gave us a Helper to understand. It is when we let "personal experiences," or carnality, lead us that we get in trouble.

I do. But my biblical hermeneutic is not locked to the right and won't budge. That's the most life denying thing you can do. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. My God is not a God of rules and regulations, he is a God of grace.

Amen. No disagreement here. But when scripture speaks of "the letter" it is speaking of the letter of the Law. We are not under law any longer, but under Grace.

Your view of sanctification is erroneous Our training for righteousness? No one is truly righteous but God. We can't have the righteousness of God given to us either because the Infinite cannot communicate properties to the finite. Sanctification is just the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and doing the Mission of God in the world. There are no merit points for being sanctified.

I disagree. Sanctification is a change that is going on in you, leading you toward a more perfect you and away from begin led by your carnality.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
​

Jesus took our sin and He gave us His righteousness. God sees us through Jesus' blood and sees us as righteous. There is no other way that we could stand spotless before Him and be accepted.