Thoughts on Orthodoxy in America

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Lotar

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Here's something that might be interesting to discuss.

We here things all the time about how Orthodoxy is growing quickly, and sometimes about not so rosey pictures about the growth of the Church. Either way we look at it, we are an insignificant minority on the American religious scene (I've heard the 1-5 million member estimates before, but I don't remember ever walking into a parish with 1,000-5,000 members).

So, how do we go from an extreme minority of the population to even a noticable minority?

I suppose the innitial reaction of most people is to seek converts, maybe pointing to the number of converts the Church is recieving at present. Nice as it may be, real growth through converts are usually localized around certain areas, usually were there is a popular priest. I would say that this growth most likely cannot be sustained, as the fad among some Protestant seminaries ends and more Protestant denominations begin anti-Orthodox polemics.

It is my belief that the best plan for sustained, and rapid, growth is not through looking without, but through looking within. This can be done by the proven method used by French Canadians in Canada and norther New England, Mormons in Utah, Albanians in Kosovo, Muslims in Lebannon, and others. That method would be by returning to the Church's teaching concerning the morality of contraception, and growing through birth rates.

Through the easily attainable TFR of approx. 7, each generation would be 3.5 times the size of the one that birthed it, leading to a population double time of about 18 years. That would be even without converts. With a positive inflow of converts, we could be doubling our presence here in this country in as little as every 10-15 years.

This method would not only sustain growth through periods with low or negative conversion rates, but would provide a more sturdy age structure for sustaining the retention in faith among our children by providing an Orthodox peer group. Instead of growing up with no or little in the way of Orthodox peers (a necessity in a culture that is geared towards assimilation), a group of a mere 10 married couples of childbearing age could provide around 5 children per year.


Just another example of how this can work is the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel. They have been able to bring their numbers up to 7% of the total population, with a population of around 25% of all school age children. This being possible in a nation with a higher birthrate and immigration growth rate than the USA.
 

Dust and Ashes

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That seems to be the way we are aiming here in Tupelo. We have a 7 month old, my cousin and his wife (catechumens) have a 15 month old and a new one on the way, another couple who will enter the catechumenate soon are expecting and my wife and I will start trying again in a few months. There is a family of new catechumens with 8 children, though they may be moving to the NW soon. It gives me a lot of comfort to know that my son will have Orthodox peers.
 
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choirfiend

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yay, let's just have children til we outnumber the Catholics! Sounds like a great idea. Good thing nowadays nearly all children live to adulthood, unlike the past, when you had a bjillion kids b/c at least a 1/3 were likely to die. Fabulous, I love it.

Breed more Orthodox soldiers! One day, if we breed enough, we can take over the world! Breed and conquer everything worldly! Breed, I say!





Not that that reduces the gift of children to sheer numbers and preconceived (pun intended) notions about what it means to be prosperous, and what the point of the Orthodox Church is.
 
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Rowan

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yay, let's just have children til we outnumber the Catholics! Sounds like a great idea. Good thing nowadays nearly all children live to adulthood, unlike the past, when you had a bjillion kids b/c at least a 1/3 were likely to die. Fabulous, I love it.

Breed more Orthodox soldiers! One day, if we breed enough, we can take over the world! Breed and conquer everything worldly! Breed, I say!





Not that that reduces the gift of children to sheer numbers and preconceived (pun intended) notions about what it means to be prosperous, and what the point of the Orthodox Church is.

LOL

Hilarious, but I seriously agree with this. True, Orthodox missions in America could be more widespread, but there's something a little too "imma baby-makin' machine uh yuhk!" about this idea. I'm not downing big families or anything, but isn't the individual allowance of birth control for some couples economy?

In addition to stronger missions, maybe better catechesis is needed in order to make sure those who grow up in the OC stay in there, perhaps?

Besides, there's no guarantee all the kids who are raised in Orthodoxy will keep practicing Orthodoxy.
 
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Lotar

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That seems to be the way we are aiming here in Tupelo. We have a 7 month old, my cousin and his wife (catechumens) have a 15 month old and a new one on the way, another couple who will enter the catechumenate soon are expecting and my wife and I will start trying again in a few months. There is a family of new catechumens with 8 children, though they may be moving to the NW soon. It gives me a lot of comfort to know that my son will have Orthodox peers.
Yay for babies! :)

My wife and I are hoping we will be blessed with a baby about every two years. We have about 10 families at our parish with 6+ children. It is really nice.
 
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Lotar

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LOL

Hilarious, but I seriously agree with this. True, Orthodox missions in America could be more widespread, but there's something a little too "imma baby-makin' machine uh yuhk!" about this idea. I'm not downing big families or anything, but isn't the individual allowance of birth control for some couples economy?

In a couple US jurisdictions, recently. A foolish move by them; allowing married couple to sin in that way.

In addition to stronger missions, maybe better catechesis is needed in order to make sure those who grow up in the OC stay in there, perhaps?

Yes, that is another important part. We must raise our children to remain in the Church as well, but that is pretty much a given, especially if we want them to be committed enough to follow the Church's teaching on contraception.
 
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nutroll

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I come from a family of 5 children, we were all raised in the Orthodox Church, and of the five of us, two are not even Christian anymore. One attends church on occasion. So that leaves two of us who attend church on a regular basis. I don't think that having more kids will increase church membership. In fact, I wonder if it isn't easier with less kids to spend more time with each of them instructing them properly in the faith.
 
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Lotar

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I come from a family of 5 children, we were all raised in the Orthodox Church, and of the five of us, two are not even Christian anymore. One attends church on occasion. So that leaves two of us who attend church on a regular basis. I don't think that having more kids will increase church membership. In fact, I wonder if it isn't easier with less kids to spend more time with each of them instructing them properly in the faith.

Not really. Having less children is not going to apprieciatively increase your chances of having the few children you do have remain in the Church. I know of big families where they have all stayed in the Church, and I know of little ones that have none of the children practicing.

It is equally important that we work to keep our children in the Church. That much is indeed true.

Look at the recent trends in the traditionalist Catholic and fullquiver Protestant movements. They have TFRs over 7 and have a higher retention rate than their peers. The bigger factors in retaining the next generation are communication of importance and example thereof by parents, and having a community of peers.

The same can be said of the Muslim communities. They have it down to a near science now. They set up schools, when there is enough of them, and homeschool when there isn't. They communicate the importance of their faith and encourage high birth rates.
 
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icedtea

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It will be difficult, with a former protestant member having 7 (last I heard) and another who had 12.

I think one should tell others about their faith, how else will they find out? I almost put we, but I am not orthodox yet. I forgot!
 
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Lotar

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It will be difficult, with a former protestant member having 7 (last I heard) and another who had 12.

I think one should tell others about their faith, how else will they find out? I almost put we, but I am not orthodox yet. I forgot!
One should tell others. What I'm saying is that gaining converts as being the exclusive focus of growth is short sighted.
 
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E.C.

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I have a friend who is Russian (Pentecostal for some reason). He has about 150 cousins. His dad is one of 18 and his mom is one of 17 (or something like that) and he is one of 12. He even has a 10 year-old uncle!

In short do as the Russians do: bring child in the world. Lots of children.
 
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buzuxi02

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Lotar is right,
Thru marriage and procreation is the most viable option as long as its coupled with an Orthodox home.
When an individual is brought into the church thru marriage of an Orthodox that person is also brought into the culture and that culture naturally becomes the culture of the children.
 
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choirfiend

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Obviously you have to have kids. Convert this entire generation, and if they were all sterile, the population would be gone at the end of this generation. But having children for the sake of fitting some stereotype in your head of what Orthodoxy is and what your role as a husband/wife is can be just as evil as avoiding children. I find this entire discussion distasteful, openly judgemental (based on one's own opinion and righteous judgement,) and ridiculous to a degree that I cannot even express.

Do God's will. Let the numbers take care of themselves.
 
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Padraig

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In a couple US jurisdictions, recently. A foolish move by them; allowing married couple to sin in that way.
I would suggest caution in saying that the bishops in question allow a couple to sin. This seems a bit hasty to me.

May you bear the fruit of the Passion,
Dn Kevin
 
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