Phred
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- Aug 12, 2003
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Leviticus 25:44-46
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen forever.
Emphasis mine.
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Obsequey
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How else would you interpret this? Scenario: Man and woman have sex. One part from the man (sperm) meets with one part of the woman (egg). Nine months later, BOOMHEADSHOT! Baby. "...man and woman become one flesh [baby]" ... get it? It's not hard. How else was god going to populate the earth?
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Obsequey
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At least they're getting into the Word!
Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Then I grew up.
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xXThePrimeDirectiveXx
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I guess that is situational as deemed by society. The man who kills a burglar threatening his family is clearly a different event than Hitler attempting genocide. Or in this case, Old Testament Jews murdering homosexuals and attributing it to a God to keep the masses in line.
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So, is that supposed to mean you believe that whatever is right is whatever a particular society says?
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xXThePrimeDirectiveXx
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Of course not, but moral people know the difference between basic right and wrong. Murder, rape, slavery, genocide, theft...those things are universally wrong among civilized people. Interestingly enough, the Bible seems to have exemptions for 4 of the 5.
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Society often believes themselves right, even Christian society.
While people often talk about how America is going to hell in a handbasket, society thought it was perfectly moral to kidnap Africans, treat them like cattle, whip them, sometimes rape them, and treat them inhumanely.
It wasn't until this existed for years that it was illegalized.
Racism, however, continued.
Blacks weren't allowed to go to white churches. Do you think that was moral? Society did - even the church goers so that as acceptable behavior.
Today, we don't.
One has to look at society, and realize that, even when they try to use the bible to support it (illegalization of whites marrying blacks, legalized segregation, legalized slavery, murder of slaves by lynching), that they aren't necessarily being moral at all, no matter how much they insist that they are.
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But who decides what's right and wrong when people disagree?
Also, the Bible never condones "murder" - you confuse "murder" with "killing", which are not necessarily identical.
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EnemyPartyII
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Um... well ACTUALLY...
depends on your definition of "civilised"... as I can certainly think of a number of examples of "civilised" people condoning pretty much all of the above, with the exception of wyhat a given civilisation regards as murder.
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xXThePrimeDirectiveXx
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Kill all homosexuals...you say justified killing, I say murder. I don't need to put a spin on it like you do. You kill someone because of sexual preference, that is murder in my eyes.
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xXThePrimeDirectiveXx
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Yeah I guess like Nazi Germany etc.
I should say...enlightened people. How's that.
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EnemyPartyII
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Again... define "enlightened".
In fact, I'll go out on a limb here and say that I bet you can't name ANY of the accepted "enlightened civilisations", that havn't committed serious examples of rape, genocide,slavery,and theft, and felt completely justified and righteous at the time.
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xXThePrimeDirectiveXx
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Oh sure. I was just thinking about the US and the Founding Fathers. I was thinking about the injustice to African Americans that continued to the Civil Rights movement, and is still present in layman prejudice.
But let's examine what we call "moral" nations of today...do any come to mind that condone rape, murder, genocide, theft? (Maybe some obscure one, but how about one of the big nations?)
I also want to add that not everyone has been onboard with the powers that be that condoned immoral acts. Which is why we had abolitionists during America's slavery period, or marchers for Civil Rights, etc. The powers that be don't always speak for all the people, kind of how I feel the Bush administration doesn't speak for me
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EnemyPartyII
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Ah... now, I'm quite sure there have ALWAYS been people on both pro and con sides of any "moral" matter... however, the fact remains that at just about ANY point in history, we can point to examples where the contemporary morality accepted as quite normal, practices that would fill the average modern Westerner with revulsion.Oh sure. I was just thinking about the US and the Founding Fathers. I was thinking about the injustice to African Americans that continued to the Civil Rights movement, and is still present in layman prejudice.
But let's examine what we call "moral" nations of today...do any come to mind that condone rape, murder, genocide, theft? (Maybe some obscure one, but how about one of the big nations?)
I also want to add that not everyone has been onboard with the powers that be that condoned immoral acts. Which is why we had abolitionists during America's slavery period, or marchers for Civil Rights, etc. The powers that be don't always speak for all the people, kind of how I feel the Bush administration doesn't speak for me
And you know what? I see no reason to consider the trend to have stopped today... I bet if you could come back in 500 years, you would here people discussing the barbarous practices accepted as normal by us, too. Of course, we have no way of predicting what the specific practices that get vilified will be, but human society is a very rapidly evolving thing.
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xXThePrimeDirectiveXx
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I just hope there will always be people who will rail against any state sanctioned injustices. I don't know anyone in my circle of friends who would put up with those kinds of injustices, and that is my problem with the Bible...there are so many injustices commanded by those we are told are Holy people.
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What are you talking about? I don't kill anybody for their sexual preference. I guess it's easier to make a point when you can just make stuff up.
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xXThePrimeDirectiveXx
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LOL.
Ok I'll keep it simple so you can follow...The passage I quoted said homosexuals must be put to death (in that culture.) You believe this is justified because you attribute it to God's word. No doubt, some homosexuals were likely put to death under that ideology. You say now that the New Testament is here, homosexuals are not to be put to death.
But...you supported the death penalty for homosexuals in the OT. You are not speaking out against it. You are ok with it.
That is what I am talking about.
Hypothetical question for you...if you were a Jew living under that OT law, would you put to death homosexuals? Or would you spare them?
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