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Featured Those who fall away are still saved?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by justbyfaith, May 19, 2018.

  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Great post!
    Gotta beat down that pesky Devil

    1 Corin 14:33
    for God is not a God of confusion/tumult, but of peace,
    as in all the Assemblies of the Saints
    .

    Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation 2:1, 10

    Reve 2:
    *8 "To the Messenger of the Assembly in Smyrna, write!
    These are the words of the First and the Last, Who died and returned to life.


    10 'Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to be suffering.
    Behold! the devil is about to be casting of ye to prison, that ye may be being tried/tested, and ye shall be having tribulation ten days;
    Become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life
    .

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  2. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Excellent reminder, and very encouraging.

    Amen.
     
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  3. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Tis tough being a Saint in Christ.....Just ask Paul:

    2 Corin 11:
    23 Are they servants of Christ? I am speaking like I am out of my mind, but I am so much more
    in harder labor, in more imprisonments, in worse beatings,
    in frequent danger of death.
    24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one.
    25 Three times I was beaten with rods,
    once I was stoned,
    three times I was shipwrecked.
    I spent a night and a day in the open sea.
    26 In my frequent journeys,
    I have been in danger from rivers
    and from bandits,
    in danger from my countrymen
    and from the Gentiles
    in danger in the city and in the country,
    in danger on the sea and among false brothers,
    27 in labor and toil and often without sleep,
    in hunger and thirst
    and often without food, in cold and exposure.

    Revelation chapter 2 verse by verse study
     
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  4. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Amen. I don't know how he withstood ALL of that.
     
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Yeah. The conversion of Saul/Paul is one of the greatest events in the NT, IMHO.

    He is first introduced in Acts 7 at the event of the stoning of St Stephen.

    Acts 7:
    58 They dragged him out of the city and began to stone him.
    Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.

    Acts 8:
    1 And Saul was assenting to his death, and there came in that day a great persecution upon the assembly in Jerusalem, all also were scattered abroad in the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles; 2 and devout men carried away Stephen, and made great lamentation over him; 3 and Saul was making havoc of the Assembly,
    into every house entering, and haling men and women, was giving them up to prison
    ;

    Acts 9:
    13 And Ananias answered, ‘Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how many evils he did to Thy saints in Jerusalem, 14 and here he hath authority from the chief priests, to bind all those calling on Thy name.’ 15 And the Lord said unto him, ‘Be going on, because a choice vessel to Me is this one, to bear My name before nations and kings — the sons also of Israel;
    16 for I will shew him how many things it behoveth him for My name to suffer.
    17 And Ananias went away, and did enter into the house, and having put upon him [his] hands, said, ‘Saul, brother, the Lord hath sent me — Jesus who did appear to thee in the way in which thou wast coming — that thou mayest see again, and mayest be filled with the Holy Spirit
    .’

    ................................[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
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  6. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Hahaaaa that cartoon is hilarious.

    And it IS quite a miracle, isn't it, that God chose Saul, of all people, to become one of the most DYNAMIC missionaries in history?
     
  7. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Paul is one of the most underrated men of God in the Bible.
     
  8. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I heartily agree brinny.
    I would love to one day harmonize and translate Acts, and all of Paul's epistles.
    Coincidentally, my birth name is Stephen.....:holy:

    The exact form of crown/#4736 used in Acts 6:8, 2 Tim 4:8 is used only 5 times in the NT, 2 of those in Revelation.

    Acts 6:8
    And Stephen/stefanoV<4736>, full of faith and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people,

    2 Timo 4:8
    henceforth there is laid up for me the Crown/stefanoV<4736> of the Righteousness that the Lord -- the Righteous Judge -- shall give to me in that day,
    and not only to me, but also to all those loving his manifestation
    .

    Reve 6:2
    and I look and behold! a white horse, and He Who is sitting upon it is having a bow,
    and there was given to Him a crown/stefanoV<4736>
    and he went forth overcoming/conquering, and that he may overcome
    /conquer.

    Reve 12:1
    And a great sign was seen in the heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown/stefanoV<4736> of twelve stars,

    [​IMG]
     
  9. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Hahaaaa! Where DO you gets those meme's? ^_^

    The verses are phenomenal, Stephen. ( Great name, full of promise and a blessed legacy, by the way) :)

    This verse just leaves me wondering what in the world it means...it's sooooo "symbolic":

    Reve 12:1
    And a great sign was seen in the heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown/stefanoV<4736> of twelve stars,
     
  10. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    So based upon your findings, your conclusion is?
     
  11. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    And what is the question you say I answered?


    Since you have accused me falsely, the burden of proof is on you as to how I have done this. What statements specifically are you referring to?

    Also you say "Everyone agrees about these things," yet I write them because I don't see that everyone agrees. I'm trying to prove from the scripture that salvation can't be lost. Again the burden of proof is yours to show that everyone agrees.
    TD:)
     
  12. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    We both agree that our "theories" must conform to the whole of scripture. You mention "besides Judas." Is Judas exempt from consideration as someone who followed and believed in Jesus, yet because of his greed, fell away? Another couple because of that same greed, lied to the Holy Spirit and fell dead on the spot as a warning to the young church in Acts. Do you suppose they were not believers in the church? Or, what about Simon the magician? He believed and was baptized (Acts 8:24) yet was sternly warned to repent lest God not forgive him (v.22).

    Elsewhere we see:
    But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some have already turned aside after Satan. If any believing man or woman has widows, let them relieve them, and do not let the church be burdened, that it may relieve those who are really widows. (1 Timothy 5:9-16) These young widows in the church have cast off their first faith and have instead turned aside to follow Satan.

    Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Timothy 2:14-19)


    Once again, a Christian must be in the faith and in the truth in order to “stray concerning the truth” (2 Timothy 2:18). Not only did Hymenaeus and Philetus stray from the truth, but they also overthrew the faith of others (2 Timothy 2:18). Those other Christians had faith to begin with, but Hymenaeus and Philetus overthrew it. Faith cannot be overthrown if it’s not there to begin with. Notice also that in v.19 it references the "seal." Those believers who are sealed by God must depart from inequity. The seal of the Holy Spirit does not guarantee that a believer cannot choose to engage in willful, habitual sin. Only those who depart from inequity and persevere in faith and obedience remain sealed.

    Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (1 Timothy 4:1-5)

    Once more, a Christian cannot depart from the faith if they were not in the faith to begin with. Those in the world cannot depart from the faith because they were never in the faith at all. Likewise, a false convert cannot depart from the faith because they were never truly in the faith. Only a “once saved” Christian can depart from the faith.
     
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  13. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Refer to my post #132.
     
  14. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I believe I inadvertently cut a quote from one of your posts which I thought was coming from "justbyfaith".

    If you'll look at my post you'll see that some quotes were from him (or her).

    He or she has been arguing just the opposite from your point of view and I thought that I had them dead to rights.

    My bad!:)
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Revelation does have a ton of Jewish/Hebrew symbology and
    While translating it, I came across the word for "diadem", and looking back at the OT, both diadem and crown are used. Ezekiel 21:26 is especially profound, since Israel is mentioned in Revelation....

    Ezekiel 21:
    25 And you, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,
    26 Thus said the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem/מִצְנֶפֶת (mitsnepheth)<4701>and take off the crown/עֲטָרָה (`atarah)<5850> this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high
    .

    The Red Dragon and Sea Beast both are wearing diadems.
    The one in Reve 12 has many diadems. Pretty fascianting

    Reve 12:3
    And there was seen another sign in the heaven, and, lo, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his head seven diadems/diadhmata<1228>,
    Reve 13:1
    And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw out of the sea a beast coming up, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon its horns ten diadems/diadhmata<1228>, and upon its heads a name of evil speaking,
    Reve 19:12
    and his eyes are as a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems/diadhmata<1228> -- having a name written that no one hath known, except himself,

    A diadem is a headpiece symbolizing royalty or authority and is usually worn by a king or queen. A synonym for diadem is crown, and that is the word found in most modern Bible translations. The word diadem is first used in the Bible in Exodus 29:6 as part of God’s instructions for Aaron’s clothing. Moses’ brother Aaron was chosen by God as the first high priest (Exodus 28:1).
    God commanded specific garments for the priests to wear while serving in His temple. Among those garments for the high priest was a turban topped with a “holy diadem” or crown (Leviticus 8:9). This diadem symbolized Aaron’s unique position as spokesman for the Most High. Israel was to obey the words of Aaron and Moses as though obeying God Himself.

    Other places in Scripture use the word diadem to represent a king, without saying as such. For example, Revelation 13:1 says, “I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads” (ESV). The use of the word diadem to refer to a king is an example of a figure of speech called metonymy. The vision of the beast from the sea represents a federation of ten kings of nations in league with the Antichrist in the end times (Revelation 17:12). The book of Revelation uses many such figurative images.


    [​IMG]
     
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  16. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Hmmmmm......i guess "diadem" can be used to represent something wicked and evil as well as Godly. For instance the "prince of this world" and thus his "authority", although very limited, would indicate that this "prince of this world" is wearing a "diadem"...the same "prince3 of this world" that took Jesus up to the top of a mountain to tempt him after Jesus fasted forty days and forty nights.
     
  17. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    Actually, I meant someone you know personally. We can debate 'till kingdom come about who in the Bible we think had salvation or not.

    I don't know the particulars of the circumstances here, and I'm not arrogant enough to judge that these women were actually saved and then lost their salvation. What I know is what scripture says about our security, and I believe that, as I outlined previously. So then, it's a legitimate question about this particular verse - did these women actually have saving faith, and believe unto salvation, were born again, were sealed by the Holy Spirit, had eternal life, were promised inheritance in Christ, saved from their sin, etc.? Well, this verse of scripture simply doesn't say so. If you make presumptions about the meaning (in contradiction to clear teaching on the subject), then it's a misunderstanding and misinterpretation of it.

    Can "first faith" actually mean that they made promises to be celibate just like nuns today? Can "condemnation" mean that their witness for Christ of having integrity in their vows is denigrated in the eyes of others? Certainly there were heathens who were watching the churches and what they were doing (just as it is today), and it is important for the integrity of our witness of Christ to remain intact, otherwise the world has occasion to accuse us of hypocrisy (which they do constantly). Further, if someone "turns aside after Satan," then does it not prove that they were not saved from their sins in the first place? Perhaps they are "barely escaping the corruption of the world," but that doesn't mean they have been born again. Since we judge according to appearance, we need to see proof of genuine faith, as James 2 teaches.

    Therefore, this proof-text doesn't adequately support your idea that salvation can be lost. You have to assume the idea into the text, and so that action is called "eisegesis," which means "an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text."

    Again here you are assuming the theoretical possibility of losing salvation, since the text doesn't actually say these people were saved. Faith has more than one dimension, as is clearly shown in James chapters 1 and 2. To be "in the faith" means to be adhering in practice to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. But Jesus said "not everyone who calls me 'Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Not everyone "in the faith" has actually received the Holy Spirit and been sealed for redemption.

    Further, "overthrow the faith of some" doesn't mean those people permanently departed from the faith. If a person is born again, their faith can be "overthrown" in the sense that tremendous doubts can come in due to powerful persuasions, which hinders their faith and walk with God, but doesn't mean they also depart from the faith permanently.

    But the seal of the Holy Spirit does actually mean that believers depart from iniquity. Eph. 1:13-14 says that the Spirit is a guarantee of our inheritance with the saints. It means absolute security. The same idea of absolute security is taught in many places, including Heb. 9:14 "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" If our conscience is cleansed from dead works, then how can we then continue to do dead works? Unless you don't believe that the cleansing of the conscience is a purification from sin? Paul is clear on this subject - Rom. 6:2 "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" In the same way John bears witness: 1 Jn. 3:9 "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot [practice] sin, because he is born of God."

    This is why the NT commands us to depart from iniquity, because when we first become Christians, we really don't know if we are among the elect or not - not until our life proves out the genuineness of our faith through trials, afflictions, and tribulations. The way we become certain of being the elect of God and having eternal security is by our endurance of faith, not by parroting theories (which I suspect you would agree with here, at least to some extent). We are exhorted to endure in faith throughout the whole NT. And those who are born again prove so by obeying the scripture, and those who are not born again prove their disobedience by departing from the faith as soon as trouble comes along, or a false teaching designed to seduce them to the flesh is whispered in their ears.

    Again, your argument doesn't align with clear teaching of scripture on the security of the believer (or insecurity in your case). I suspect it's not your intention, but you are actually pitting scripture against scripture, as if the clear teaching that I point out from scripture is false. What I quoted from scripture and the ideas portrayed in them isn't my personal opinion. I didn't write those things. I didn't invent those ideas. I'm getting them from the verses I quote. But because you disagree, you try to quote other scriptures to support your theory that salvation can be lost. I say if you wish (or need) to live in such fear, be my guest. I prefer to listen to what the NT teaches and have enduring peace.

    Again, "in the faith" doesn't automatically mean that they are sons of God. Just because someone claims to believe? Just because someone knows Christian jargon? "The faith" is the set of doctrines and practices taught by the apostles that we are required to adhere to. Being in the faith offers us the opportunity to be born of God, but does not guarantee it, nor does it prove that we were. The only thing that guarantees salvation is receiving the Spirit, and the only thing that proves genuine personal faith is a lifestyle obedient to Christ. We need both of these to be certain that we are saved. This passage of scripture doesn't address that, so it doesn't prove your theory, and the same with all the verses you quote here.
    TD:)
     
  18. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    Acknowledged, sorry for the misunderstanding.
    TD:)
     
  19. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    That brings to mind these passages in John.....notice who comes with the soldiers sent by the Chief Priests in Mark 14:

    John 16:11
    "of judgment, because the ruler/chief/arcwn<758> of this world is judged..
    John 12:31
    "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler/chief/arcwn<758> of this world will be cast out.
    John 14:30
    "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler/chief/arcwn<758> of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.[Mark 14:43]
    Mark 14:43
    And immediately, while He was still speaking, Judas/JUDAH, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords and clubs, came from the chief-priests/arc-ierewn<749> and the scribes and the elders. 44 Now His betrayer had given them a signal, saying, [John 14:30

    758. archon ar'-khone present participle of 757; a first (in rank or power):--chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
    749. arch-iereus ar-khee-er-yuce' from 746 and 2409; the high-priest (literally, of the Jews, typically, Christ); by extension a chief priest:--chief (high) priest, chief of the priests.

    Revelation Chapter 1 Verses

    Reve 1:5
    and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler/chief/arcwn<758> of the kings of the earth.................

    ...................................................[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
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  20. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Does this apply to Melchizedek?
     
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