Those who fall away are still saved?

[justbyfaith]

Yahweh says it is impossible - in harmony with all His Word (which ask Him to open to you, if you are willing to obey Him to DO what He says).

The whole of His word provides that if anyone thinks they have fallen away, there is still hope...see the verses I referenced.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The whole of His word provides that if anyone thinks they have fallen away, there is still hope...see the verses I referenced.

You are badly and seriously mistaken. Since God and Jesus and Jesus' followers have all shown you your errors,
and you refuse to listen or to learn the truth,
there is no more anyone can do for you. Bye.
(we will still post the truth, you can read it , believe it, or not)

 

[Oldmantook]

when a sinner truly repents of their sins and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour and Lord, they are forgiven of all their sins, and Justified before God, as though they had never sinned. They are "sealed" by the Holy Spirit, which is ownership by the Lord of that person. They that are truly born again by God the Holy Spirit, CANNOT lose their salvation. Jesus says of theses in John 5:24, "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life", they have already "crossed over from death to life". Where the Greek shows of this transition of already taken place for the repentant sinner. This is what Jesus promised Martha in John chapter 11, "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (25-26), where again the repentant sinner, "NEVER DIES".

All of the verses you cited in John's epistle contain the pisteuōn which is a present tense participle. Therefore one must go on "believing" in order to have eternal life. If a Christian no longer believes then he/she is no longer saved.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

All of the verses you cited in John's epistle contain the pisteuōn which is a present tense participle. Therefore one must go on "believing" in order to have eternal life. If a Christian no longer believes then he/she is no longer saved.

THANKS !

For centuries, Greek, Western, American thoughts / ways of life
have been so corrupt, and so
different from Scripture and so
different from the lives of the Ekklesia
that many were easily tricked to believe something else....
the words used don't mean what Scripture means originally,
and if they don't seek the Truth from Yahweh (God), they don't find it.
IF they try to learn the truth by studying, they have already failed.
As noted already of many posters, churches, teachings and doctrines.

 

[lamb7]

So if I fall away I am still saved?

To be honest I do not know. Is this falling away a permanent hatred for God?

It is a time of sinning like King David???

I tend to think God preserves us (I'm not a Calvinist)

And that true believers don't fall away completely from the faith in Christ. Doesnt make sense.

 

[lamb7]

Unless contrary to Yahweh's Word:
Hebrews 6:4 - Bible Gateway
Hebrews 6:4 - Bible Gateway
For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and ...

In context what is tasting the heavenly gift mean?

What if so.eone believed fell away then believed again?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And that true believers don't fall away completely from the faith in Christ. Doesnt make sense.

Consider what you just said.

Does it make any sense at all, to men on earth the last 6000 years,
for
the Creator, Almighty, Who fills the entire universe and more for eternity,

to send His Son to earth to be born a man in the midst of an evil, wicked society who opposes Him ?

 

[lamb7]

Consider what you just said.

Does it make any sense at all, to men on earth the last 6000 years,
for
the Creator, Almighty, Who fills the entire universe and more for eternity,

to send His Son to earth to be born a man in the midst of an evil, wicked society who opposes Him ?

It makes sense to me. Only a perfect being could do that. Simply amazed by that fact.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In context what is tasting the heavenly gift mean?

What if so.eone believed fell away then believed again?

First you have to believe Yahweh's Word is Truth, Perfect and unchanging.

Then, realize that this is truth, even if you have no idea how it is possible.

Every Word of Yahweh is absolutely true and in perfect harmony with all of His Word, according to Himself (and there is no one greater than Himself that He could swear by.)

No matter if you believe or not, Yahweh's Word is Truth and Stands Forever and Eternity without end.

Therefore, we do not have to twist nor change nor add to nor take away from what Yahweh Says, ever, and to do so is to risk His wrath in certain judgment.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It makes sense to me. Only a perfect being could do that. Simply amazed by that fact.

Most of mankind not only doesn't agree with you, and never felt that way,
they continue to reject Yahweh (God) and His Word,
and to serve demons without even thinking of turning to Yahweh.

Keep on Trusting and Relying on the Father in heaven, for all things every day, and do as He says. He will never let you down, even in death, there is no fear.

 

[lamb7]

Most of mankind not only doesn't agree with you, and never felt that way,
they continue to reject Yahweh (God) and His Word,
and to serve demons without even thinking of turning to Yahweh.

Keep on Trusting and Relying on the Father in heaven, for all things every day, and do as He says. He will never let you down, even in death, there is no fear.

Yea I notice that and it saddens me. When we realize what He is and did and does it's just mind blowing! What an honor to have a relationship with the o e who created all!

I look at nature and esp animals in awe and say to myself I get to talk to the one who made this complex creature. I get heeled out by what He made, and what He has done for His image bearers. ♡

 

[Oldmantook]

THANKS !

For centuries, Greek, Western, American thoughts / ways of life
have been so corrupt, and so
different from Scripture and so
different from the lives of the Ekklesia
that many were easily tricked to believe something else....
the words used don't mean what Scripture means originally,
and if they don't seek the Truth from Yahweh (God), they don't find it.
IF they try to learn the truth by studying, they have already failed.
As noted already of many posters, churches, teachings and doctrines.

I think human tendency is to believe what we were first taught. It is more difficult to learn something correctly the second time around because of the baggage and paradigm we cling to initially produces cognitive dissonance when something contradicts our cherished beliefs/doctrines. In effect, we have to unlearn what we first learned in order to learn correctly. Unfortunately, many of the doctrines that have crept in today are the doctrines of men and not the teachings of apostolic tradition.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I think human tendency is to believe what we were first taught.

Yes.

It is more difficult to learn something correctly the second time around because of the baggage and paradigm we cling to initially produces cognitive dissonance when something contradicts our cherished beliefs/doctrines.

No.
well, sometimes yes. for me it was easier learning the truth, and giving up what I had learned and been taught all my life ! sheer and amazing grace !
Most people , or many people , have totally resisted learning the truth when it is presented to them from anyone, in any way - gently or strongly, quickly or slowly,
because they
have been 'locked' in to a false belief / false gospel .....
they need to >>

In effect, we have to unlearn what we first learned in order to learn correctly. Unfortunately, many of the doctrines that have crept in today are the doctrines of men and not the teachings of apostolic tradition.

.... unlearn what they were taught all their lives, even by family, friends , church, group, school, in all areas - medical, political, financial, educational, etc etc etc
especially religious or spiritual.....

 

[tdidymas]

The reasoning that has developed in the thread Salvation is COMPLETE and IRREVOCABLE, or something like that, in the Soteriology section of these boards, primarily argued by @FreeGrace2, is along the following lines:

In the parable of the sower, there are those who BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and then fall away. Luke 8:13.

But in John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:28 it is given that those who believe POSSESS everlasting life, and shall NEVER PERISH.

So then, if I believe for a while and then fall away, did I possess everlasting life while I believed?

And if, when I fell away, I died spiritually, was it NOT everlasting life in the first place?

Because it seems to me that if life is everlasting, it will never end.

So the argument is, that if I believe for a while I have everlasting life; therefore if I fall away I continue to have everlasting life.

I call it "believe-for-a-moment" theology, and I consider it to be false doctrine, a doctrine of devils, in fact (see 1 Timothy 4:1).

But I don't have an answer.

Maybe we can put our noggins together and figure out an answer for this dilemna in the scripture.

Common sense would tell you that if you fall away from the faith, you no longer have salvation. Since faith is the catalyst for salvation, i.e. we are saved by grace through faith, therefore without faith I am not a recipient of grace and am not saved. So if someone falls away from having faith in Jesus Christ, they wouldn't be saved anymore.

And yet the nature of the life given to those who believe is that it is everlasting; it can never have an end.

And that it is possible that someone can have faith for a season is evident in Luke 8:13.

So if they fall away do they continue to have everlasting life? Or does the fact that they no longer have faith mean that they are departed from Jesus Christ and have salvation no more?

Because also, we cannot have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

If we can have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ, why come to Jesus in the first place?
.
.
.
A part of my answer is that when faith is mentioned in the Bible, it can mean different things regardless of the fact that it is the same Greek word. There may be a nominal faith vs. a radical faith, and/or a mental assent vs. a heart faith, the latter of which produces righteousness (Romans 10:10).

So is the "faith for a moment" wherein the person believes for a while and then falls away, is it talking about a mental assent only that does not produce real righteousness, or is it a heart faith that produces righteousness? Are there those whose hearts are changed by Jesus Christ who can fall away later? Or are the ones who can fall away only those who have mental assent to the doctrines of the faith, and who believe in this sense, but whose faith does not produce a change in the heart/life/behaviour?

If someone whose life is changed by faith in Jesus can fall away, was their life everlasting if they do? Because those who believe have everlasting life. John 6:47.

You are right in saying there are 2 kinds of 'faith' mentioned in scripture. But the question you pose appears to bring up a strawman, since faith is not the only criteria to look at for determining a person's spiritual state of affairs. And since we cannot judge what is going on in anyone else's heart, we can only apply the scriptures to ourselves for that determination. We only can judge others as they appear to us, thus every Christian has responsibility to prove to other Christians that their faith is genuine, as the context of James 2:24 tells us.

Since salvation is a whole package, Jesus teaches a "whole hog or none" kingdom. If we don't forsake all (addiction to material things and pleasures), we cannot be His disciple. As we go through trials and troubles, our faith will prove genuine or not, and it has to do with endurance. Such can only be if we have received the whole package of salvation, including knowledge of all that Christ has done, desire to please God, desire to forgive others and be at peace with others and our own conscience, have evidence that we have received the Holy Spirit, and other such evidences that the NT teaches.

Like I said before, if a person believes that strongly, and is willing to go through all kinds of afflictions for Christ, then I think that the devil (through sin) is not strong enough to permanently make a true believer "fall away." Besides, what do you mean by "fall away"? Do you mean it in the same sense as how the phrase is used in Heb. 6?

Or perhaps you already know the answer you're looking for, and you're only trying to get a discussion going?

I believe 1 Pet. 1:5 that we are "kept by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," and the Holy Spirit is given as a "guarantee of our inheritance in Christ." If these statements be true (as I believe they are), then there is no "falling away" for the believer, since faith itself is a gift of God, and the Holy Spirit works the will of God in us who believe and love God. The only ones who fall away are those whose "faith" is only a claim or theory, and don't have enough spiritual vision in them to carry them through the common trials. Thus, the parable of the sower, wheat and tares, the 5 talents, the 10 virgins, along with Hebrews 6, Rom. 8:13, James 2, etc.
TD

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All of the verses you cited in John's epistle contain the pisteuōn which is a present tense participle. Therefore one must go on "believing" in order to have eternal life. If a Christian no longer believes then he/she is no longer saved.

Very interesting. I decided to check up on that word........

John 5:24
'Verily, verily, I say to you --
He who is hearing My word, and is believing/pisteuwn<4100> Him Who sent Me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

Strong's Number G4100 matches the Greek πιστεύω (pisteuō), which occurs 264 times in 220 verses

Out of the 264 times that word is used in the NT, the exact word form of it, pisteuwn<4100>, is used only 24 times.
19 of those in John and 1John 5.

15 times in John, 2 times each in Acts and Roman, 1 time 1Peter 2:6, 4 times in 1John 5.

1st time used:

John 3:15
that every one who is believing/pisteuwn<4100> in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

Last time used

1John 5:10
He who is believing/pisteuwn<4100> in the Son of God, hath the testimony in himself; he who is not believing/pisteuwn<4100> God, a liar hath made Him,
because he hath not believed in the testimony that God hath testified concerning His Son;

 

[Marvin Knox]

In falling away do they lose all faith, or do they retain a semblance of faith? if they retain a semblance of faith, I posit that they didn't fall away. So if they fall away, they basically become atheists.

I can't picture it now...a bunch of atheists in heaven with their arms crossed while everyone else's arms are raised in worship...denying that what is before them is even a reality!

Now Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you...so in that picture I imagine that these atheists are miserable and suffering in heaven because they absolutely do not want to believe in God, and this realization is being forced upon them...or, in not believing through sheer willpower, they do not have the peace, love, and joy that believers do from the practice of worshipping God in Spirit and in truth. And atheists cannot do that, so they will never have that peace, love, and joy.

Being shown the reality of God will not produce faith, impaho, in someone who simply does not want to believe. The Israelites in the wilderness had the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, the manna, and countless miracles, yet in Hebrews it says that the gospel was preached to them but was not mixed with faith in them that heard it.

I posit that if someone has a living and saving faith, they are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and His influence in their lives will prevent them from ever losing faith. Therefore your scenario is moot. There is no such thing as someone who has saving faith and then falls away. Saving faith is persevering and tenacious faith. This was ridiculed by @FreeGrace2 as being unbiblical, but it certainly isn't. It is the only possible righteous conclusion one can make.

Because if someone who falls away is still saved, it opens up a can of worms. I can just raise my hand in church one day and "believe", and I now have fire insurance. I paid it in for a moment the cost and then took my money back, and still got the product that I have now reniged on paying for. I can have salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ also, and the conclusion one would make is, why come to Jesus in the first place, if I can be saved apart from faith in Him? God wants me to just make a show of believing in Him for a moment, but then I can take it back a little bit later and I still go to heaven? If I really believe, it is something that will not disappear easily, is what I am saying. And if it does disappear, it has to be that the person was not sealed by the Holy Spirit in faith.

Also, if someone who falls away is still saved, do they keep the holiness and righteousness of character that they gained from being a Christian? Because if in falling away they go back to the old worldly ways (which is the primary reason why most, if not all, do), they cannot ever repent according to Hebrews 6 and I can't imagine them being in heaven doing drugs and singing "I can't get no...satisfaction......" in one corner, while everyone else is rejoicing in Jesus singing "The Old Rugged Cross".

I know no more than is written.

The Luke 8 passage does not address the things you are wrestling with.

I suggest you find other passages to explain your belief in loss of salvation - which, it seems to me, is the doctrinal agenda you are trying to foster here in a round about way.

I.e. - you have no question. You just want to push your held belief.

"with joy" indicates an emotional experience but no roots in a knowledge of God's word, so it is easily uprooted, being not a saving faith, but a plant that cannot go deep into the ground.

Read the passage where it says certain people received the word with joy. I didn't write it.

You are the one adding to what it says in saying that it is "not a saving faith".

The passage simply does not address loss of salvation. Find other passages to support your agenda.

And actually, it does address the question. There are those who believe for a while and then fall away. You have not tasted the words "fall away", I suggest that you taste them. It does not give me the picture of someone who continues to be saved.

I have no idea what you mean by "tasting" the words fall away.

I don't care what kind of picture you have in your mind. I only know what the passage says and what it does not say.

It does not address the eternal security of believers or the supposed possibility that they may come again into condemnation after believing and passing from death to life.

Other passages do that quite clearly.

I simply won't try to defend my belief that I was chosen by God before the foundation of the world, drawn by the Father in time, came to the Son when drawn who will lose none of whom the Father has given Him, was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, was raised with Christ and am even now seated with Him in glory and ruling in the Kingdom of God through Him by faith, have eternal life, have an advocate before God, have the Holy Spirit praying for me, have ministering angel all around me, and have a new home being prepared for me when the Lord comes for me in glory ----- by arguing from a passage which does not address those promises or God's supposed willingness to break them in the first place.

 

[tdidymas]

All of the verses you cited in John's epistle contain the pisteuōn which is a present tense participle. Therefore one must go on "believing" in order to have eternal life. If a Christian no longer believes then he/she is no longer saved.

Your statement sounds true theoretically, but it is not practical in the Biblical sense. It is true that we all judge according to appearance, and sometimes it appears as though someone believes one day and doesn't believe the next (triggered by some adverse event, or over some long period of time). Jesus examples this kind of behavior in the parable of the sower and others.

The NT many times talks of passing from death to life, from darkness to light, from the devil's kingdom to God's, etc., but not once does it ever talk of passing back from life to death, etc. In all cases in which warnings of eternal spiritual death is posed, it is in the context of someone in a transition period where they claim faith, but are still in a precarious position because they might not have experienced the endurance of faith needed to be expressed to prove that their faith is genuine. Thus we have epistles of the NT talking to such people and about such people. In fact, we all (at least most of us) experience that transition period, where we waver in our faith, sometimes having confidence, sometimes doubting.

Therefore we must be careful to cling to what the NT teaches, and not to theories that seem possible but do not actually conform to the teaching of the apostles. One verse I like to quote is 1 Pet. 1:5 which says that we are "kept by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." In this context, it is not our willpower that does anything at all, so this kind of faith that Peter is talking about comes from the spirit, which faith is generated by the Holy Spirit given to us as a "guarantee of our inheritance" (Eph. 1) Who also bears witness to us (Rom. 8:16). So it is not faith that causes the power of God to work, but rather it is the power of God in us that causes faith to work unto our salvation.

With this in mind, James 2 (specifically v. 24, but the whole context of it) tells us that the only people who "believe" and then "not believe" are those whose faith is not genuine, that is, not a saving NT faith. James tells us that if a person says they have faith, but doesn't have any good works to prove that their faith is genuine, that kind of faith is not the kind needed for the salvation of the soul.

Therefore, although your theory sounds plausible, that a person can "believe" and then "no longer believe," I think my theory is a much better one, and conforms to Biblical teaching. Namely, that a person having saving faith and the works to prove that their faith is genuine, cannot "not believe" because they have the almighty power of God working in them to keep them in the faith. This is the sense of 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Therefore, it is not a matter of circumstances that might shake us, not a matter of strong temptations, not a matter of a theoretical independent free will, but it is rather a matter of our identity of being in Christ, being God's sons, being led by the Spirit, being disciplined by our Heavenly Father, being spiritually minded, being transformed in thought and actions, and being sanctified by the powerful working of the Spirit in us. Can you name one single person who once was saturated in this glorious experience and the word of God, and now no longer believes (I mean besides Judas)?
TD

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The ones who believed for a while and then fell away did not have genuine faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. Also they may have made a verbal profession of faith without truly repenting and believing with all their heart. As Scripture says "they had no root".

Good post.
Has anyone mentioned Hebrews 6? What are others thoughts on this?

Hebrews 6:
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity,
not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,a
and of faith in God,
2 instruction about baptisms,b
the laying on of hands,
the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do, if God permits.

4 It is impossible/a-dunaton<102> for those
who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift,
who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God
and the powers of the coming age—
6 and then have fallen away—to be restored again to repentance.
Because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

102. a-dunatos from 1 (as a negative particle) and 1415;
unable, i.e. weak (literally or figuratively); passively, impossible:--could not do, impossible, impotent, not possible, weak.
1. without strength, impotent: τοῖς ποσί, Acts 14:8; figuratively, of Christians whose faith is not yet quite firm, Romans 15:1 (opposed to δυνατός).
2. impossible (in contrast with δυνατόν): παρά τίνι, for (with) anyone, Matthew 19:26; Mark 10:27; Luke 18:27; τό ἀδύνατος τοῦ νόμου 'what the law could not do' (this God effected by, etc.; (others take τό ἀδύνατος here as nominative absolutely, cf. Buttmann, 381 (326); Winer's Grammar, 574 (534); Meyer or Gifford at the passage)), Romans 8:3; followed by the accusative with an infinitive, Hebrews 6:4, 18; Hebrews 10:4; by an infinitive, Hebrews 11:6.

Hebrews 6:4 Biblehub

6:4-6 It is not, of course, implied that the Hebrew Christians had fallen into the condition thus described, or were near it; only that such a condition might be, and that, if they went back instead of advancing, they might arrive at it. The process intimated is that of complete apostasy from the faith after real conscious enjoyment of the gifts of grace. In such a case the hopelessness of the fall is in proportion to the privileges once enjoyed. This is the drift of the passage, though other views have been taken of its meaning, which will be noticed below. "Once enlightened" denotes the first apprehension of the light, which could be but once; when those that saw not began to see (John 5:39); when the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ shone once for all upon believers (2 Corinthians 4:4); when (according to the cognate passage, Hebrews 10:26; cf. Hebrews 10:32) they received the knowledge of the truth. The verb φωτίζω means in the LXX." to enlighten by instruction," and was in common use in the early Church to express the enlightenment that accompanied baptism; whence baptism itself was called φωτισμός. Thus Justin Martyr ('Apol.' 1:62) says, Καλεῖται δὲ τοῦτο τὸ λοῦτρον φωτισμός ὡς φωτιζομένων τὴν διάνοιαν τῶν ταῦτα μανθανόντων Cf. the title of Chrysostom's 'Hem.' 49, Πρός τοὺς μέλλοντας φωτίζεσθαι, Since the expression was thus commonly used as early as Justin Martyr, there may probably be in the text a special reference to baptism as the occasion of the enlightenment. But, if so, more is meant by the phrase than "those who have been once baptized:" an inward spiritual illumination is plainly pointed to; and it would not have been said of Simon Magus that he had been "once enlightened" in the sense intended. And this is indeed the real meaning of φωτισμός as applied to baptism by Justin Martyr, as his explanation, above quoted, shows. So also Chrysostom ('Hem.' 116.), "The heretics have baptism, but not enlightenment (φωτισμα); they are baptized indeed as to the body, but in the soul they are not enlightened; as also Simon was baptized, but was not enlightened." This consideration is important in view of one misapplication of the passage before us, which will be noticed below. But, further, those whom it is impossible to renew unto repentance are supposed not only to have been enlightened, but also to have "tasted of the heavenly gift," the emphatic word here being apparently γενσαμένους: they have had experience as well as knowledge (cf. Psalm 34:8, "Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good;" and 1 Peter 2:3, "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious").

 

[tdidymas]

Good post.
Has anyone mentioned Hebrews 6? What are others thoughts on this?

Hebrews 6:
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,a and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms,b the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do, if God permits.

4 It is impossible/adunaton<102> for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift,
who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God
and the powers of the coming age—
6 and then have fallen away—to be restored again to repentance.
Because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

102. adunatos from 1 (as a negative particle) and 1415;
unable, i.e. weak (literally or figuratively); passively, impossible:--could not do, impossible, impotent, not possible, weak.

Hebrews 6:4 Biblehub

6:4-6 It is not, of course, implied that the Hebrew Christians had fallen into the condition thus described, or were near it; only that such a condition might be, and that, if they went back instead of advancing, they might arrive at it. The process intimated is that of complete apostasy from the faith after real conscious enjoyment of the gifts of grace. In such a case the hopelessness of the fall is in proportion to the privileges once enjoyed. This is the drift of the passage, though other views have been taken of its meaning, which will be noticed below. "Once enlightened" denotes the first apprehension of the light, which could be but once; when those that saw not began to see (John 5:39); when the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ shone once for all upon believers (2 Corinthians 4:4); when (according to the cognate passage, Hebrews 10:26; cf. Hebrews 10:32) they received the knowledge of the truth. The verb φωτίζω means in the LXX." to enlighten by instruction," and was in common use in the early Church to express the enlightenment that accompanied baptism; whence baptism itself was called φωτισμός. Thus Justin Martyr ('Apol.' 1:62) says, Καλεῖται δὲ τοῦτο τὸ λοῦτρον φωτισμός ὡς φωτιζομένων τὴν διάνοιαν τῶν ταῦτα μανθανόντων Cf. the title of Chrysostom's 'Hem.' 49, Πρός τοὺς μέλλοντας φωτίζεσθαι, Since the expression was thus commonly used as early as Justin Martyr, there may probably be in the text a special reference to baptism as the occasion of the enlightenment. But, if so, more is meant by the phrase than "those who have been once baptized:" an inward spiritual illumination is plainly pointed to; and it would not have been said of Simon Magus that he had been "once enlightened" in the sense intended. And this is indeed the real meaning of φωτισμός as applied to baptism by Justin Martyr, as his explanation, above quoted, shows. So also Chrysostom ('Hem.' 116.), "The heretics have baptism, but not enlightenment (φωτισμα); they are baptized indeed as to the body, but in the soul they are not enlightened; as also Simon was baptized, but was not enlightened." This consideration is important in view of one misapplication of the passage before us, which will be noticed below. But, further, those whom it is impossible to renew unto repentance are supposed not only to have been enlightened, but also to have "tasted of the heavenly gift," the emphatic word here being apparently γενσαμένους: they have had experience as well as knowledge (cf. Psalm 34:8, "Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good;" and 1 Peter 2:3, "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious").

v. 9 (it is the same context) indicates that the spiritual condition of the one described in v. 4-8 is not someone saved. Keep in mind that "saved" in NT meaning is saved from sin, that is, saved not only from the penalty of sin, but also is being saved from the power of sin. Note that nowhere in v. 4-8 does it talk of faith, love of God, salvation, or justification. It only describes experiences in connection with Christian fellowship in the early church. In v. 9 it says that the things that go with salvation are better things than those.
TD

 

[justbyfaith]

You are badly and seriously mistaken. Since God and Jesus and Jesus' followers have all shown you your errors,
and you refuse to listen or to learn the truth,
there is no more anyone can do for you. Bye.
(we will still post the truth, you can read it , believe it, or not)

Who do you think you are talking to? Neither God, who is Jesus, nor any of His followers, have shown me any errors on my part (And I have certainly NOT refused to listen to and learn the truth. I've been studying it for over 28 years). Except for the sins that I have been forgiven of because they are confessed. But on these boards, I have not had any encounter where the opposition has been able to prove me wrong, although I have changed my view on occasion because I saw that the scripture contradicted the view I was carrying. This is because I study to shew myself approved, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I did not say that those who have truly fallen away have any hope; I said that there are those who think that they have fallen away who can still have hope. The devil is a liar. He will try to tell God's children that they have fallen away just to get them to stop following Jesus out of sheer discouragement. And it is obvious that you didn't look up the scriptures I referenced.