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Featured Those who are born again can NEVER be lost.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The operative word is "if" and not "when". Also, he does not mention being born again or converted to Christ. He is talking about those who have come to the knowledge of the truth. A person can know the gospel and yet not made a commitment to Christ. Demons have a perfect knowledge of the gospel, but they are not saved.

    What I think Paul is talking about is the person who is given knowledge of the gospel of Christ, comes under conviction of sin, but does not go further to commit himself to Christ as Saviour and Lord. These are those who stay outside the narrow gate of Christ and either reject the gospel, or they try and find another gate, such as the gate of religion, church attendance, moral living, religious ceremony and ritual to satisfy their conscience.

    Paul knows full well that he would never intend to deliberately go on sinning, nor would he expect any genuinely converted believer to do the same.

    We also need to correctly define, "deliberately go on sinning". It is a wilful and deliberate continuance of practicing the works of the flesh as listed in Galatians 5. It does not define the shortcoming of true believers to achieve sinless perfection.
     
  2. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Yes we do as Jeremiah specifically refers to the New Covenant. This means that all New Covenant believers indwelled by the Spirit of Jesus receive the fear of the Lord which is one aspect of the Holy Spirit.

    This is in contrast to the old covenant which did not involve His indwelling presence. If this were not so Jeremiah would not have prophesied it.

    Blessings,

    Carl Emerson.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    And you cannot fall away from something or lose something you do not have.

    --- forgiveness revoked --

    Matthew 18
    32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
    35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

    Rom 11
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand only by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    1 Cor 6
    7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

    You cannot fall away from something such that you cannot be "renewed again" to it -- if you never had it to start with.

    Heb 6
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

    (Which is the saved condition -- not the state of the lost)

    6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

    Amen

    Well as it turns out - that is not what I am thinking.

    Here is what I am thinking you should be responding to a few of the texts above -- texts that 4 and 5 pt Calvinism does not survive as it turns out.

    Rom 2:11 11 For there is no partiality with God.

    Gal 6: 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

    1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning

    Rom 6: 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

    1 Cor 9
    23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.
    24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified.


    Rom 2:13-16 says that many who have no access to scripture at all - will be there. And the chapter ends by saying that many who do have access to scripture will not.

    how do you think that helps them? Why do you think that those who do not agree with the false doctrine of OSAS don't have assurance right at this minute.

    Hint. "The Arminian can know that he is saved - right-at-this-minute, but cannot know that he will continue to choose salvation 20 years from today..... the 3 and 5 point Calvinist cannot even know that".

    The reason being that 3 and 5 point Calvinism "retro-deletes" today's assurance once it can be shown that 20 years from today "you fail to persevere".

    On the contrary - I do. But the extreme inference you may prefer to pour into that statement does not hold up to the full text of scripture on the topic as the texts above - which you are dismissing, clearly show us.
     
  4. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    The ones that fall away never were his true sheep.

    Parable of the seed.

    M-Bob
     
  5. cuplet

    cuplet Newbie

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    I belong to a denomination that teaches that you must be Born Again, and we believe in the in-filling of the Holy Spirit, manifested ( one way) by speaking in Tongues. I personally believe that it's possible to lose one's salvation ,if you did something really big. We all sin. Someone in the Church said " we all sin, every day." I'm sure that I do. I believe that if you sin, and confess it to God, and ask for Forgiveness, He will forgive you, if you are truly repentant and sorry . He promised to "cleanse us from all righteousness." I'm a Born Again Christian, saved through Faith, by Grace. If someone died, and had known Christ as their Saviour, and was truly Born Again, I believe they'd "make it." On balance I also have the Fear of the Lord, and I do not take that lightly. In other words, I do not take GOD for granted. I try to confess immediately, once I know I've sinned. Some people would say that I " keep short accounts with God." Just because I'm Born Again, I don't think that I'm free to go out and sin. No. I've repented. I've seen people who have accepted the Lord, then gone back to drugs, adultery, promiscuity, etc. My denomination, Pentecostal, would be very concerned about their salvation. They'd have to show that they've repented, and once again, ask the Lord Jesus for forgiveness. Would they lose their salvation? I'd say, not necessarily, only God knows that. But they'd certainly have to re-commit their lives to Christ, and really mean it.....
     
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus says "whoever believes has eternal life". Eternal life has no beginning or end. So those who truly believe in Christ were always saved in the mind of God.
     
  7. PlatinumTrophies

    PlatinumTrophies Learning The Way

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    You gain salvation on Judgement Day, silly. Not in this life.
     
  8. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    It seems that you Eastern Orthodox have lot in common with many of the cults and Bob Ryan our Seventh Day Adventist friend.

    I.e. - you do not believe you pass from death to life when you believe and you may well come again into condemnation.

    If it's all the same to you - I'm gonna go with the creator of the universe in Whom I live and move and have my being on this.

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life." John 5:24
     
  9. PlatinumTrophies

    PlatinumTrophies Learning The Way

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    And you gain everlasting life on Judgement Day. You fail to prove your position. Protestants like you have no way of knowing what the Apostles' church was like since not everything was written down in the New Testament.

    You base your theology on man's interpretation of scripture. That's Protestantism for ya. You shouldn't call others cultists when you believe Christianity is a religion based on man's opinion.

    The demons believe and tremble. Mere belief does not save.

    If you believe one gains salvation at some point in this life, please tell me how one would know when one obtains it.
    There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written. John 21:25
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  10. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    How convenient for you.

    Next you'll be throwing your lot in with Joseph Smith and his special glass and golden tablets.
    I base my opinion on what the scriptures say and they say that salvation is by grace through faith.
    Since you obviously have never rested in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice at Calvary - you probably will have trouble with this.

    But ---- "I know whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have entrusted against that day." 2 Timothy 1:12

    "in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present not the future, not any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.…" Romans 8:38-39

    Look ---- you guy's is a different religion than mine - even though Jesus Christ is name in yours as well.

    Good luck with your religion on the day of judgement.

    But I'm seated with Jesus Christ in Heaven right now and He ever lives there to make intercession for me.

    Like the thief on the cross - I'm pretty much good to go.:)
     
  11. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, and no one can say for sure who will fall away and who will not, who will persevere and who will not IOW.
     
  12. PlatinumTrophies

    PlatinumTrophies Learning The Way

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    You believe Christianity went extinct and needed to be rediscovered. That's awfully similar to what Joseph Smith believed.

    Incredibly arrogant of you to say your opinion is 'what the scriptures say'. Yes because there aren't thousands of protestants that interpret the same scriptures differently based on psychological factors outside of their own control.

    Orthodox believe we are saved by God's grace. Not sure if you think we believe in 'buying' salvation based on whatever biased ignorance you've been exposed to.

    Orthodox aren't all that different from you. We simply don't believe in certainty of salvation. I don't know of anything in the Bible that says salvation is dependent on one's certainty.

    Satan would love or everyone to be confident in going to Heaven.
     
  13. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Fear of the Lord is certainly a good thing-and a mark of a true believer. It's not, however, the only mark and it's not as if someone couldn't have fear for other reasons such as mental disturbances: anxiety, over-scrupulosity, obsessive fear of death, etc.

    Either way, will a believer, depending on the time and opportunity given, persevere in a faith-born fear which should also tend to transform increasingly into love as he continues to walk with his Lord and work out his salvation with Him?
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    And you cannot fall away from something or lose something you do not have.

    --- forgiveness revoked --

    Matthew 18
    32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
    35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

    Rom 11
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand only by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    1 Cor 6
    7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

    You cannot fall away from something such that you cannot be "renewed again" to it -- if you never had it to start with.

    Heb 6
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

    (Which is the saved condition -- not the state of the lost)

    6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

    Amen

    Well as it turns out - that is not what I am thinking.

    Here is what I am thinking you should be responding to a few of the texts above -- texts that 4 and 5 pt Calvinism does not survive as it turns out.

    Rom 2:11 11 For there is no partiality with God.

    Gal 6: 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

    1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning

    Rom 6: 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

    1 Cor 9
    23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.
    24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified.


    Rom 2:13-16 says that many who have no access to scripture at all - will be there. And the chapter ends by saying that many who do have access to scripture will not.

    how do you think that helps them? Why do you think that those who do not agree with the false doctrine of OSAS don't have assurance right at this minute.

    Hint. "The Arminian can know that he is saved - right-at-this-minute, but cannot know that he will continue to choose salvation 20 years from today.....

    the 3 and 5 point Calvinist cannot even know that".

    The reason being that 3 and 5 point Calvinism "retro-deletes" today's assurance once it can be shown that 20 years from today "you fail to persevere".

    Matthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" refutes OSAS
    Isaiah 5:4 - and John 1:11 shows the reality of free will
    "What more could I do that I have not already done?" Is 5:4

    Apparently you believe that ignoring every text in the post - "solves it" for your POV. How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.


    On the contrary - I do believe it which is why I like to quote more than just that one "snip" from Hebrews 12.

    Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
    4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
    “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
    Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;

    Phil 2 12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;


    1 Cor 9
    23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
    24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

    1 Cor 6
    7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
     
  15. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    Please show me where I said that.

    I do believe the gospel of grace was obscured by liturgical Christianity for quite some time and is still - both in the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox branches. If one participates in these threads enough - it become obvious that misunderstanding the gospel of salvation by grace is not something that is limited to liturgical Christianity and the cults.
    Not at all. I have been given the Holy Spirit to guide me into truth. I can't speak for anyone else, of course.
    Again - I can't speak for anyone else. As for me - I believe the simple gospel believed by the thief on the cross and the Philippian jailer.
    I have mostly been exposed to Orthodox beliefs here in the forum. Yours is quite typical of the beliefs I have been exposed to here in the forum.

    If you don't believe that you have passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation, that you are seated with Christ in Heaven, that you are ruling in the Kingdom of God by faith, sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of judgement, and have an advocate ever interceding for you in Heaven - you do indeed participate in a different religion than I do.

    I wish you luck. If the Lord considers yours religion as saving faith - I'll be very happy for you when we meet in Heaven worshiping around the throne of God together.
    Nor have I said otherwise.
    I'm sure that's true.
     
  16. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

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    How many times are you going to cut and paste and repeat this post?

    Look --- If you guys want to believe that you are simply heading toward a future salvation and not that you possess salvation now - go ahead on.

    As for me - I am persuaded that the author and finisher of my faith can keep what I have entrusted to Him until the end.

    I hope God considers the practice your religions as justifying you before Him - I will be very happy for you if that is the case.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    In response to this -- Today at 12:17 PM #54

    Hmmm ... I think I see - "why should I keep posting the Bible texts that must be ignored if one is trying to make a case for OSAS and Calvinism"... that is a good question indeed.

    As it turns out --- the mere quote of the texts is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to them -- to the fact that they are even quoted... all the while ignoring them.

    And as it turns out - the need to ignore those texts (a need demonstrate repeatedly) is not lost on the objective unbiased Bible students here.
     
  18. Not David

    Not David Der Ewige Katechumene

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    Liturgical Christianity was the only form of Christianity for 1500 years. Also, my Church was founded by Jesus Christ so I don't think that would be considered a cult.
     
  19. Junker P Hoodwink

    Junker P Hoodwink Member

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    I disagree. What if a born again Christian makes a pact with the Devil and never repents? He'll end up in hell forever.
     
  20. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I don’t believe it is truth because it doesn’t explain John 15:1-10. If eternal security was true then Jesus’ message in John 15 is useless.
     
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