Those Who Abide Under Wrath

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Aaron_Bethlhm

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Well, to be a little more direct. No one is going to do a study of your remarks when you don`t bother to provide scripture references. I`m not even sure which one you were attempting to quote.
No worries. Take your time. Those who know Scripture already, know of the statements already. Sometimes it takes years of reading, and God's Revelation of course, to know.
(some who are like the Berean's use tools like Bible Search engines to search for verification or contradiction , when possible)
 
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RickReads

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No worries. Take your time. Those who know Scripture already, know of the statements already. Sometimes it takes years of reading, and God's Revelation of course, to know.
(some who are like the Berean's use tools like Bible Search engines to search for verification or contradiction , when possible)

Ridiculous statement. Ignored.
 
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Mr. M

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Ridiculous statement. Ignored.
....
nothing you ever posted anywhere,
shows that I contradicted Scripture anywhere in anything I posted.
Brothers, can we get back on topic of the thread. I concluded the thread
with a prayer of Paul:

2 Corinthians 13:
7
Now I pray to God that you do no evil, not that we should appear approved, but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.
8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

Can we compare with this?
Romans 1:18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and
unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
 
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Aaron_Bethlhm

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Romans 1:18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
Thus those who speak from flesh, from self, or from demnonic sources,
are (always?) suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. (they dwell in darkness and plan wickednesses even during the night for the next day) ....

A Closing Prayer Of Paul
2 Corinthians 13:
7
Now I pray to God that you do no evil, not that we should appear approved,
but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.
8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

Such Amazing Grace for those born of God.

John 6:63. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words
that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 4:24. God is Spirit, those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth.
John 3:7. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.
 
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Mr. M

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Such Amazing Grace for those born of God.

John 6:63. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words
that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 4:24. God is Spirit, those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth.
John 3:7. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.
Hey, my signature! A perfect reproduction.
 
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RickReads

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It was complimentary to the process, not a slight.

You have to know some truth before you can suppress it. You had a point about the children of wrath being religious people. But ignorant Gentiles aren`t off the hook.

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;"
Romans 2:12
 
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Mr. M

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Such Amazing Grace for those born of God.
It was complimentary to the process, not a slight.
Consider more of the scriptures that come out of this keyword in the thread. [G3709] orga-wrath.
Romans 2:
4
Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for
yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6
who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
 
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Aaron_Bethlhm

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You have to know some truth before you can suppress it.
Most people do not know the truth , and yet suppress the truth in iniquity and wickedness, especially (or mostly) , concerning pharmakeia as written in the Apocalypse, and many other things as well. Those who are greedy, reject and oppose the truth daily, in order to get more worldly gain, they lie without conscience or without repentance anyway, unless by Grace from God they eventually repent.
God says the natural man cannot know nor grasp Truth, nor Scripture nor His Kingdom.
 
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Mr. M

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Most people do not know the truth , and yet suppress the truth in iniquity and wickedness, especially (or mostly) , concerning pharmakeia as written in the Apocalypse, and many other things as well. Those who are greedy, reject and oppose the truth daily, in order to get more worldly gain, they lie without conscience or without repentance anyway, unless by Grace from God they eventually repent.
God says the natural man cannot know nor grasp Truth, nor Scripture nor His Kingdom.
I have prayed through all of the "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees" scriptures asking the Holy
Spirit to correct my knowledge, and deliver me from this condemnation. Interesting that you mention
pharmakeia at such a time as this, for it deserves to be at the top of the list, while the world waits for
the industry to deliver them from a pandemic.
Here is the most disciplinary and helpful prayer I have ever voiced:

Psalm 139:
23
Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.

Be prepared to come face to face with the "real you".
 
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Mr. M

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Most people do not know the truth
I get what you are saying. What makes me uncomfortable on this forum is when people say
"most Christians". I don't know most Christians, so that always rings false to me. "Most people"
is more realistic, since most people don't have a love of the Truth.
 
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Clare73

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Opponents of God`s Omniscience object, saying God would not create a person predestined to become lost but I think it is clear that no one begins life condemned. People earn it as they grow up and choose the devil for a father.
Actually, the apostle Paul reveals otherwise.

As the progeny of Adam, by nature we are all born enemies of God (Ro 5:10), just as the baby rattlesnakes in my backyard are born mortal enemies of my children, and must be eliminated. Born as God's enemies by our very nature as children of Adam, we are all born objects of his wrath (Eph 2:3), under just condemnation (Ro 5:18). Because of Adam's trespass altering our nature--making it sinful, and forbidden in his holy heaven, God owes us nothing but judgment, just as because the nature of the baby rattlesnakes makes them lethal and forbidden in my backyard, I owe them nothing but elimination.

So God does us no injustice in condemning from his heaven the sinful nature we, without choice, are born with, just as I do the baby rattlesnakes no injustice in eliminating from my backyard the lethal nature they, without choice, are born with.
God does not owe us the ability, against our nature, to repent. He is justly free to give us that ability
(Ac 5:31, 11:18), or not (2Tim 2:25). For the sake of his holiness and his holy heaven, God owes us only condemnation, just as I, for the sake of my children, owe the baby rattlesnakes only elimination.

Let's look deeper into Paul's revelation of this in Ro 5:12-15:
from Moses to Adam people died. All death is the penalty of sin (Ro 6:23). But sin is not taken into account, not charged against one, where there is no Mosaic law to break (Ro 4:15, 5:13).
So in what sin were they all involved, and from which they all died?
They were all involved in the sin of Adam (they died by the trespass of one man, v.15), because they were all born guilty of the sin of Adam.
And since physical death is the result of spiritual death ["dying (spiritually), you will die (physically)"--Hebrew meaning of Ge 2:17], we are all born spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13).

But note the parallel of God's purpose: to also save the many through the righteousness of one man:
Ro 5:17 - "For if by the trespass of the one man (Adam), death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."
I'm okay with that.

But back to Ro 5:12-15:
We do not start life with even the possibility of living it sinlessly, we are born with, we begin life with a sinful nature (Ge 8:21; Ps 51:5; 58:3),
spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13), by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
in unbelief and condemned already (Jn 3:18b-19),
with God's wrath remaining on those who do not come out of unbelief (Jn 3:36).

Objection: God cannot justly judge and punish people for all eternity for failing to meet impossible expectations.

God's judgment is not on one's failure "to meet expectation," his just judgment is on their sinful nature, which cannot abide in his holy heaven, just as the lethal baby rattlesnakes cannot abide in my backyard, and in both cases the offensive must be dispelled, leaving only one alternative in eternity, Gehenna.

Objection: Paul never said that Adam’s guilt is placed upon all men.

But he did. . .in Ro 5:17-19:

". . .by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, . . .Consequently,
just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, . . ." (vv.17-18)

". . .
through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, . . ." (v.19)
 
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RickReads

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Actually, the apostle Paul reveals otherwise.

As the progeny of Adam, by nature we are all born enemies of God (Ro 5:10), just as the baby rattlesnakes in my backyard are born mortal enemies of my children, and must be eliminated. Born as God's enemies by our very nature as children of Adam, we are all born objects of his wrath (Eph 2:3), under just condemnation (Ro 5:18). Because of Adam's trespass altering our nature--making it sinful, and forbidden in his holy heaven, God owes us nothing but judgment, just as because the nature of the baby rattlesnakes makes them lethal and forbidden in my backyard, I owe them nothing but elimination.

So God does us no injustice in condemning from his heaven the sinful nature we, without choice, are born with, just as I do the baby rattlesnakes no injustice in eliminating from my backyard the lethal nature they, without choice, are born with.
God does not owe us the ability, against our nature, to repent. He is justly free to give us that ability
(Ac 5:31, 11:18), or not (2Tim 2:25). For the sake of his holiness and his holy heaven, God owes us only condemnation, just as I, for the sake of my children, owe the baby rattlesnakes only elimination.

Let's look deeper into Paul's revelation of this in Ro 5:12-15:
from Moses to Adam people died. All death is the penalty of sin (Ro 6:23). But sin is not taken into account, not charged against one, where there is no Mosaic law to break (Ro 4:15, 5:13).
So in what sin were they all involved, and from which they all died?
They were all involved in the sin of Adam (they died by the trespass of one man, v.15), because they were all born guilty of the sin of Adam.
And since physical death is the result of spiritual death ["dying (spiritually), you will die (physically)"--Heb meaning of Ge 2:17], we are all born spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13).


But note the parallel of God's purpose: to also save the many through the righteousness of one man:
Ro 5:17 - "For if by the trespass of the one man (Adam), death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."
I'm okay with that.

But back to Ro 5:12-15:
We do not start life with even the possibility of living it sinlessly, we are born with, we begin life with a sinful nature (Ge 8:21; Ps 51:5; 58:3),
spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13), by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
in unbelief and condemned already (Jn 3:18b-19),
with God's wrath remaining on those who do not come out of unbelief (Jn 3:36).

Objection: God cannot justly judge and punish people for all eternity for failing to meet impossible expectations.

God's judgment is not on one's failure "to meet expectation," his just judgment is on their sinful nature, which cannot abide in his holy heaven, just as the lethal baby rattlesnakes cannot abide in my backyard, and in both cases the offensive must be dispelled, leaving only one alternative in eternity, Gehenna.

Objection: Paul never said that Adam’s guilt is placed upon all men.

But he did. . .in Ro 5:17-19:

". . .by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, . . .Consequently,
just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, . . ." (vv.17-18)

". . .
through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, . . ." (v.19)

I did take the time to review your verses. They do not address the status of a baby or a young child.
A baby has to grow for awhile before satan can take them and become their father.

In all of the scriptures you offer, they address the status of people who have sinned but they do not address young children who have not.

Babys can`t talk

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Babys haven`t committed any deeds

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Nothing to judge them by and God reserves the right to be merciful.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
 
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I did take the time to review your verses. They do not address the status of a baby or a young child.
A baby has to grow for awhile before satan can take them and become their father.

In all of the scriptures you offer, they address the status of people who have sinned but they do not address young children who have not.

Did you miss the following:

"They were all involved in the sin of Adam (they died by the trespass of one man, v.15), because they were all born guilty of the sin of Adam.
And since physical death is the result of spiritual death ["dying (spiritually), you will die (physically)"--Heb meaning of Ge 2:17], we are all born spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13)."

It might help to review it again.
 
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RickReads

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Did you miss the following:

"They were all involved in the sin of Adam (they died by the trespass of one man, v.15), because they were all born guilty of the sin of Adam.
And since physical death is the result of spiritual death ["dying (spiritually), you will die (physically)"--Heb meaning of Ge 2:17], we are all born spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13)."

It might help to review it again.

LOL! Oh man, you are making me sound cliche. So be it.

You are telling me that God takes dead babies and throws them into hell because Adam disobeyed?
 
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RickReads

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Did you miss the following:

"They were all involved in the sin of Adam (they died by the trespass of one man, v.15), because they were all born guilty of the sin of Adam.
And since physical death is the result of spiritual death ["dying (spiritually), you will die (physically)"--Heb meaning of Ge 2:17], we are all born spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13)."

It might help to review it again.


"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Deuteronomy 24:16
 
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RickReads

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Did you miss the following:

"They were all involved in the sin of Adam (they died by the trespass of one man, v.15), because they were all born guilty of the sin of Adam.
And since physical death is the result of spiritual death ["dying (spiritually), you will die (physically)"--Heb meaning of Ge 2:17], we are all born spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13)."

It might help to review it again.

As I continue considering this issue it occurs to me that many don`t understand the nature of Adam`s curse. It is a curse on the body that leads to physical death and it is a qualitative curse on our spirit that leaves us predisposed to sin. It is not a sin on the books that we will face a charge for.

It`s akin to a multi generational curse.

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" Deut 5:9.

The curse in this passage is qualitative. It`s not a specific sin charge. The children are predisposed to commit the same sins as their father but they will not be put to death for his sin. They will be put to death for their own sins.
 
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LOL! Oh man, you are making me sound cliche. So be it.

You are telling me that God takes dead babies and throws them into hell because Adam disobeyed?
If you'll review my post, you will find that
the wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23),

that Paul reveals no one was charged with sin--baby, adult or otherwise--from Adam to Moses,
because there was no law to sin against,

that all died anyway--because all were guilty of sin, for death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23).
Whose sin? Adam's sin,

that we are all born in sin (Ps 51:5)--guilty of Adam's sin.

Your disagreement is with Paul, the apostle.
 
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