This is the greatest tragedy in all of human history.

[MikeinSeattle]

Please correct me if I am wrong. But this is my current understanding of history:

Somewhere around 1000 years ago (give or take) the western world en mass decided to seek the truth.

Some nations became predominantly Catholic, some predominantly Protestant, others Orthodox, and others still various flavors of biblical faith. But nearly every nation within Europe and eventually the Americas decided willingly to leave the pagan ways of there neolithic ancestors, there murdering, raping, pillaging and plundering to embrace a morality of goodness towards fellow man that had its roots in a faith toward a God revealed to us in the holy scriptures.

And so they each continued in that faith (more or less) and went on together to build a new kind of civilization that continued for centuries to have at its moral foundation in those same principles of "do unto others as you would have them to you". Such that even in those times of greatest wars and hardest troubles no matter where you went within the western world you could pretty much count on the fact that everyone around you basically knew in their hearts that it was good to do good to others, and it was good because there probably was a God in heaven somewhere who was watching and wanted them to do so.

But now, today, 1000 years later the western world has decided en mass to reject that foundation of faith that they once stood upon. Today every principal of those scriptures that once guided the pattern of life that mankind should live are now being systematically one by one rejected. All the heroes of our past who once held those convictions are now maligned and cursed almost because they all held those beliefs. And all nations within the western world are now deciding to with almost one accord turn there backs on the God they once believed in along with every teaching that has ever been attributed to His name.

Throughout history many peoples have done evil things at certain times and in certain places. But when before in all of human history has such a great multitude of peoples and nations of the earth who once had the truth all as one together, so entirely decided to reject it?

When has such a great and geographically united population of the earth chose to go so willingly from light to darkness?
Chose so willingly to give up what measure of morality they once had by giving up the entire foundation of that morality?

How are we not witnessing the greatest tragedy that has ever been seen upon the earth at any time in all of history from the creation of Adam up unto this day?

And how will this rejection of morality not result in the greatest bloodshed and suffering that has ever been seen at any time upon the earth?

Please help me to understand why there is no one crying on the streets at every corner right now.

I am dead serious.

Are we all just blindly hoping that it will be our children who die of torture in the gulags instead of us?

Why are you all drinking Starbucks and remodeling your kitchens and planning cruises to Tahiti right now?

Why is the preacher on every pulpit in every church on every sunday calmly and cheerfully following his happy, well balanced, comfortable and not too long little Sunday service message? A message in which he will never say anything that anyone will remember an hour later?

Why is not every person who steps foot within a church right now not clothed in sackcloth and ashes?

Why are you all living as if everything is ok?

How are you not all insane?

Or is it me?

It must be me.

I must be missing something here.

Please tell me what I am missing.

You must have all decided that everything is actually ok for some reason that I have just not been made aware of yet.

Please oh readers of this message here today. You people of the west sitting there at your computer looking at these words that I have written to you.

Please tell me why everything is actually ok right now.

Please tell me.

Because I do not know.

 

[timothyu]

You are just one of the few souls who seems to see further than most. It is both a blessing and a curse.

Yes, even though even Christianity was corrupted by many over the centuries, it at least taught goodness while the evil within pursued their own agendas. That was typical of man but the numbers of misleading leaders are always few. The people were at least united to a degree over a philosophy of goodness even though like good sheep they trusted their leaders who used goodness as a tool while going themselves in a different direction..

Not a fertile field for the Adversary. But you are right. Today and for quite some time (think a century so as to not attract attention) the climate has changed to one of divisiveness even among family, and this time (as Jesus once stated) it is not over Him but over the ways and politics of man. We are focused on the wrong kingdom. Rights instead of responsibility. Self over sharing. The new world order of Corporatism is gobbling everything up leaving room eventually for only one world power. Guess who that might be. People may be fooled but need to remember what Jesus said about His Kingdom not being of this world. As the old song goes ♪ they are looking for love in all the wrong places ♪

 

[public hermit]

Such that even in those times of greatest wars and hardest troubles no matter where you went within the western world you could pretty much count on the fact that everyone around you basically knew in their hearts that it was good to do good to others, and it was good because there probably was a God in heaven somewhere who was watching and wanted them to do so

Sure, unless you came under the eyes of the Inquisition, were engaged in war against other Christians, were enslaved by Colonizers, or happened to be Native American. We could extend the list of Christian atrocities. Your view of history is a myth. Christians have engaged in every possible evil throughout the history of Christian faith. And truth be told, if it hadn't been for the Enlightenment, Christians would probably still be killing each other.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Sure, unless you came under the eyes of the Inquisition, were engaged in war against other Christians, were enslaved by Colonizers, or happened to be Native American. We could extend the list of Christian atrocities. Your view of history is a myth. Christians have engaged in every possible evil throughout the history of Christian faith. And truth be told, if it hadn't been for the Enlightenment, Christians would probably still be killing each other.

The Enlightenment’s record is demonstratably worse. More people were guillotined in the French Revolution’s Reign of Terror than were ever killed in the Spanish Inquisition…

 

[timothyu]

More people were guillotined in the French Revolution’s Reign of Terror

Only because of their relationship with church and state.

 

[BobRyan]

Please correct me if I am wrong. But this is my current understanding of history:

Somewhere around 1000 years ago (give or take) the western world en mass decided to seek the truth.

Some nations became predominantly Catholic, some predominantly Protestant, others Orthodox, and others still various flavors of biblical faith. But nearly every nation within Europe and eventually the Americas decided willingly to leave the pagan ways of there neolithic ancestors, there murdering, raping, pillaging and plundering to embrace a morality of goodness towards fellow man that had its roots in a faith toward a God revealed to us in the holy scriptures.

And so they each continued in that faith (more or less) and went on together to build a new kind of civilization that continued for centuries to have at its moral foundation in those same principles of "do unto others as you would have them to you". Such that even in those times of greatest wars and hardest troubles no matter where you went within the western world you could pretty much count on the fact that everyone around you basically knew in their hearts that it was good to do good to others, and it was good because there probably was a God in heaven somewhere who was watching and wanted them to do so.

But now, today, 1000 years later the western world has decided en mass to reject that foundation of faith that they once stood upon. Today every principal of those scriptures that once guided the pattern of life that mankind should live are now being systematically one by one rejected. All the heroes of our past who once held those convictions are now maligned and cursed almost because they all held those beliefs. And all nations within the western world are now deciding to with almost one accord turn there backs on the God they once believed in along with every teaching that has ever been attributed to His name.

Throughout history many peoples have done evil things at certain times and in certain places. But when before in all of human history has such a great multitude of peoples and nations of the earth who once had the truth all as one together, so entirely decided to reject it?

When has such a great and geographically united population of the earth chose to go so willingly from light to darkness?
Chose so willingly to give up what measure of morality they once had by giving up the entire foundation of that morality?

How are we not witnessing the greatest tragedy that has ever been seen upon the earth at any time in all of history from the creation of Adam up unto this day?

And how will this rejection of morality not result in the greatest bloodshed and suffering that has ever been seen at any time upon the earth?

Please help me to understand why there is no one crying on the streets at every corner right now.

I am dead serious.

Are we all just blindly hoping that it will be our children who die of torture in the gulags instead of us?

Why are you all drinking Starbucks and remodeling your kitchens and planning cruises to Tahiti right now?

Why is the preacher on every pulpit in every church on every sunday calmly and cheerfully following his happy, well balanced, comfortable and not too long little Sunday service message? A message in which he will never say anything that anyone will remember an hour later?

Why is not every person who steps foot within a church right now not clothed in sackcloth and ashes?

Why are you all living as if everything is ok?

How are you not all insane?

Or is it me?

It must be me.

I must be missing something here.

Please tell me what I am missing.

You must have all decided that everything is actually ok for some reason that I have just not been made aware of yet.

Please oh readers of this message here today. You people of the west sitting there at your computer looking at these words that I have written to you.

Please tell me why everything is actually ok right now.

Please tell me.

Because I do not know.

Matt 24:12 one of the signs of the end of time --
12 And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will become cold.

1 Thess 5:1 Now as to the periods and times, brothers and sisters, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction will come upon them like labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape

2 Tim 3: 1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, slanderers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power

You make some very good points.

IN the book of Revelation - God sees all that is going to happen and here is what we find.

Rev 16 - the seven last plagues poured out on all mankind
Rev 19 - they end with the appearing of Christ, rapture of the saints, death of all the lost. "the rest were killed" as the chapter's ending.

============================But "BEFORE that" --

Rev 15:8 says the work of Christ as our High Priest in heaven ends - so that the Rev 16 seven last plagues can be poured out.

Rev 14 says that a final warning message is to be given to all the world by the Christian church --. It is comprised of issues listed in the 3 angels messages found there.

It tells everyone that judgment has begun, it warns mankind against the mark of the beast that is soon to become an issue and tells us not to take it.

Rev 13 -- describes the mark of the beast issue in a lot more detail.

------

There is a denomination that has in its formal mission statement - the mission to proclaim that final end time warning to the world. ChristianityToday called that denomination the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world - in its Jan/Feb 2015 issue.

 

[The Barbarian]

Please tell me what I am missing.

Witch trials... The Crusades and murder of Jews by crusaders... The Reformation wars... Medieval corruption and abuse of everyone but a tiny few... Superstition leading to the murder of Jewish citizens blamed for the Plague... the Inquisitions by Catholic and Protestant authorities who burned various people alive for not agreeing with them... slavery and serfdom... the loss of science and learning in those ages...

Stuff like that.

This country escaped the worst of that with a remarkably sensible approach. The founders recognized that faith was an essential part of a just society, but determined to keep the government entirely out of it. It's no coincidence that the rise of the "religious right" coincides with a loss of religious faith in American society. As James Madison observed that's what always happened in Europe.

Is it too late to fix? I don't know. But I know who broke it.

 

[MikeinSeattle]

Sure, unless you came under the eyes of the Inquisition, were engaged in war against other Christians, were enslaved by Colonizers, or happened to be Native American. We could extend the list of Christian atrocities. Your view of history is a myth. Christians have engaged in every possible evil throughout the history of Christian faith. And truth be told, if it hadn't been for the Enlightenment, Christians would probably still be killing each other.

It seems to me that you are arguing that people who call themselves Christian through the centuries have at times done terrible things. And you are using that as a straw man argument in order to claim that my "view of history is a myth". Please read my full post if you have the time so that you will know what it is that I am actually claiming.

My primary argument is not at all that people who call themselves Christians are perfect people and have never done terrible things in all kinds of ways.

My primary point is this. That for the last 1000 years or so people in general in western countries have all held to the general moral consensus that "murdering, raping, pillaging and plundering" are all bad things. A point to which you yourself clearly allude to in your own argument. And furthermore my main point is this, not only have we in the west almost universal adopted this "moral consensus" that hurting people is bad. But we have done so as a direct result of the christian faith that virtually every nation in the west at one point adopted so many centuries ago.

Obviously if you read my entire post you will see that I then claim that this "moral backbone of society" is disintegrating as we all reject the foundation of that morality, which is the Christian faith. And then I claim that the consequences of this will be a west that "no longer has any morals" roughly speaking.

You mentioned the Native Americans and the the western "atrocities" against them. But that right there is actually just another example of how the western world brought morality to a land that previously did not have it.

When the western settlers came to America they were appalled at the morality of the "native Americans". When the Indians captured you in battle they would tie you to a pole and stick you up on a hill of fire ants to be entertained as they watched you die. Why do you think scalping was a thing? Do you think the settlers were scalping Indians alive and hanging them as trophies on their horses? Are native Americans still scalping each other today? You cant erase that part of history can you? At least not until google gets full control of history books and what pictures come up on image search.

Please give more evidence to support your claim that my "view of history is a myth" since it seems to me that you have only so far given further evidence to support all of my assertions.

 

[BobRyan]

Witch trials... The Crusades and murder of Jews by crusaders... The Reformation wars... Medieval corruption and abuse of everyone but a tiny few... Superstition leading to the murder of Jewish citizens blamed for the Plague... the Inquisitions by Catholic and Protestant authorities who burned various people alive for not agreeing with them... slavery and serfdom... the loss of science and learning in those ages...

Stuff like that.

Is your point that Christianity is evil? Democrats in America promoted slavery and "Jim Crow" laws. Christianity in America was a driving force in getting rid of it.

This country escaped the worst of that with a remarkably sensible approach. The founders recognized that faith was an essential part of a just society, but determined to keep the government entirely out of it.

The separation of church and stated principle is not the same as exalting atheism as the highest form of civil government. Russia and China and Cuba are good examples of how that does not work.

It's no coincidence that the rise of the "religious right" coincides with a loss of religious faith in American society.

Secularism and "the religious right" are polar opposites. With the rise of secularism comes the loss of religious faith in America.

 

[The Barbarian]

Is your point that Christianity is evil?

Do you commonly make up weird opinions and then suggest others believe them?

Democrats in America promoted slavery and "Jim Crow" laws.

Conservative democrats, yes. Civil rights legislation led them to abandon the party. At one time, republicans had fewer racists than the democrats, as odd as that may sound today.

Christianity in America was a driving force in getting rid of it.

And yet, many Christian ministers and denominations said that slavery was God's will. The Southern Baptist Convention, for example, made that a doctrinal position. But it should be mentioned that the SBC has since expressed regret for past sins of their leaders, apologized to the descendants of those who suffered under slavery, and has since attempted to make amends. This required a great deal of courage, and they should be commended for it.

The point remains that many Christians in this country used their religion as a way of harming an entire race of people. There still are some who would use religion to harm people who harm no one, and only want to be left alone.

That's not new. In Europe, Christians of most denominations have been guilty of some of the worst atrocities against others. This doesn't mean there's something wrong with Christianity; it means that many Christians have not done a very good job of following Jesus.

The separation of church and stated principle is not the same as exalting atheism as the highest form of civil government.

It merely means as Jefferson and Madison noted, that government neither endorses nor restricts religion.

Russia now has an official religion; it is officially a "Christan nation." The state actively persecutes many "unacceptable" religions like Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[The Barbarian]

My primary point is this. That for the last 1000 years or so people in general in western countries have all held to the general moral consensus that "murdering, raping, pillaging and plundering" are all bad things.

And now, you think most Americans think that these are good things? Evidence?

Obviously if you read my entire post you will see that I then claim that this "moral backbone of society" is disintegrating as we all reject the foundation of that morality, which is the Christian faith.

I notice that the American people have been inclined to extend the idea of freedom to people that traditionally were not treated very well. So that would indicate a stronger commitment to that general moral consensus.

Do you think the settlers were scalping Indians alive and hanging them as trophies on their horses?

Just a few years ago, some people who considered themselves Christians, tied a black man to a rope attached to a car, and then drove it around until he was dead. So I'm thinking that we should be careful not to assume moral superiority. A few generations ago, a group of people in Oklahoma, who prided themselves on being Christians conducted a massacre of black citizens in the city destroying an entire section of the city burning homes, killing men, women, and children alike.

The generation before mine burned an entire German city alive for no military objective at all. Let's be careful to avoid sitting in the front of the Church, and praising God for making us righteous.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you commonly make up weird opinions and then suggest others believe them?

nope -- I pay attention to the details you skipped

 

[BobRyan]

The point remains that many Christians in this country used their religion as a way of harming an entire race of people. There still are some who would use religion to harm people who harm no one, and only want to be left alone.

The point remains that it was the Christians that got America out of slavery and the democrats in the south that fought to keep it, then failing that promoted Jim Crow laws in the South.

So I don't see Christianity as the villain of civilization

 

[BobRyan]

Just a few years ago, some people who considered themselves Christians, tied a black man to a rope attached to a car, and then drove it around until he was dead. So I'm thinking that we should be careful not to assume moral superiority.

That is a flawed accusation against Christianity since we all know that nothing in the Bible preaches such morals to mankind. It is a flaw of the form "someone who claimed to be an xyz did something bad" - so then the xyz group is bad.

The flaw of that type can be applied to any "xyz" -- Where "xyz" can be "plumber", "carpenter", "painter" ... name whatever you wish to cast shade on --

That tactic is not very compelling.

 

[The Barbarian]

That is a flawed accusation against Christianity

Nope. It's pointing out that Christians have often acted in ways that God would not like them to do.

It is a flaw of the form "someone who claimed to be an xyz did something bad" - so then the xyz group is bad.

Nope. That story won't fly. Changing what I said to something you would rather handle, is not a very compelling tactic.

The flaw of that type can be applied to any "xyz" -- Where "xyz" can be "plumber", "carpenter", "painter" ... name whatever you wish to cast shade on --

As Jesus was fond of pointing out, many times nonbelievers have been more pleasing to God than believers who did not follow the two great commandments.

We should all have the humility to accept it His way. Make an effort, it will be worth your trouble.

 

[The Barbarian]

The point remains that it was the Christians that got America out of slavery and the democrats in the south that fought to keep it

The conservatives who tried to keep slavery though that they were being good Christians, just as the liberals who were trying to end it, thought they were.

So I don't see Christianity as the villain of civilization

You seem to keep trying to blame Christianity instead of Christians who failed to follow God's will. Why is that?

 

[The Barbarian]

Do you commonly make up weird opinions and then suggest others believe them?

nope

So why did you claim that I said something I did not?

 

[BobRyan]

The conservatives who tried to keep slavery though that they were being good Christians, just as the liberals who were trying to end it, thought they were.

In that context - the Republicans and Christians were the "liberals" trying to end it. For they were "liberal" in defending the value of human life.

 

[The Barbarian]

n that context - the Republicans and Christians were the "liberals" trying to end it.

At the time of the civil war, the democrats were conservative and the republicans liberals. Today, it's the opposite. So as you would expect, the racists have abandoned the democrat party.

 

[Laconia79]

Please correct me if I am wrong. But this is my current understanding of history:

Somewhere around 1000 years ago (give or take) the western world en mass decided to seek the truth.

Nearly every nation within Europe and eventually the Americas decided willingly to leave the pagan ways of there Neolithic ancestors, there murdering, raping, pillaging and plundering to embrace a morality of goodness towards fellow man that had its roots in a faith toward a God revealed to us in the holy scriptures.

I started laughing so hard I almost wet myself. I am Cherokee decent, I could tell you what the majority of Native Americans think of Christianity but I would get ban. Might have something to do with 500 years ago there was over 100 million and today about 5 million. 500 years of rape murder and theft.

But now, today, 1000 years later the western world has decided en mass to reject that foundation of faith that they once stood upon.

Okay you need to get your facts strait. The Catholic Church started about 1500 years ago, Protestantism came along about 500 years ago. Secondly The crusades, reformation, inquisition, the geocide of the Native Americans I see a thousand years or rape and murder of 10s of millions of people.[/quote][/quote][/QUOTE]