This is seriously evil!

[Eudaimonist]

I'm sorry Mark, this is quaint Swedish naiveté.

I'm an American, and while I don't hail from New York City, I'm from New York State. I was still living in Buffalo, New York during 9/11, and I felt the "closeness" of the event. It was just downstate from me. It might as well have happened down the street.

They plan on commemorating it on 9/11 - the 10th anniversary no less!?!

This might be an urban legend, but even if it were true, so what? It would be infantile to be offended by that.

I see it as a peace gesture and an attempt to build bridges with non-Muslims. It's not like they were celebrating the terrorist attack. (If they were, I'd certainly be outraged!) And it's not like the entire Muslim world approved of the terrorist attack, so it is ridiculous for Americans to react simply to the fact that these are Muslims making a community center near ground zero.

I am ashamed for Americans to be so sensitive over this. It's not like the Muslims were burning Bibles, or even the American flag, in which case I'd be on your side!


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[razeontherock]

I'm an American, and while I don't hail from New York City, I'm from New York State. I was still living in Buffalo, NY during 9/11, and I felt the "closeness" of the event. It was just downstate from me. It might as well have happened down the street.

While this is OT, what happened to your integrity? Just because many here may not know this geography, Buffalo is 400 MILES away from NYC!! Mark, that is NOT down the street, nor "just downstate." It's on the opposite end of one of the biggest States in the Union! If you start in the capital of Sweden and drive 400 miles south, what country are you in? Well into France, right? Some perspective here, please.

I see it as a peace gesture and an attempt to build bridges with non-Muslims. It's not like they were celebrating the terrorist attack. (If they were, I'd certainly be outraged!)

Then be outraged. They are staking their claim on ground they took over, by force, with the intention to keep taking over ground, by force, until this is a Muslim Nation. If that isn't the clear message they intend to convey, they should conduct the affair in a peaceable manner, rather than standing up to the protest of an overwhelming majority (71%) of New Yorkers.

If they were holding out an olive branch, at the first sign of conflict they would merely re-schedule the ceremony for a different date. It's been scheduled for a LONG time already! They have no intention of being peaceable.

They're looking for conflict, and as much as they can get. If they lose the battle, it still furthers their cause in the war. (So to speak) Regardless of their motives, they're playing into the hands of those that say all of Islam seeks Armeggeddon, what they call "the Mother of all battles." Remember when that phrase was actually used, and by whom?

This is a sensitive issue, and should be treated as such. These plans are not merely insensitive, but inflammatory by design. Taking over what many consider to be hallowed ground is FAR more significant than burning a flag, or a Bible, all of which can be replaced. Surely you know how precious real estate in NYC is?

 

[kiwimac]

They are doing nothing of the kind. These people are Sufis. Shall I provide you with links detailing the attacks Sufis in Wahabbi or Salafii countries have to put up with?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Excuse me for saying so, raze, but your take on these matters sounds hysterical - like the kind of stuff you hear on American talk radio shows.

 

[razeontherock]

If we were promoting or building a cultural center in their land, we would be responsible for following their social customs. I'm telling you how the natives are looking at this. You can ignore that if you want, or you can listen to a person who understands. There IS a reason I live FAR away from NYC, and very near the Canadian border you know.

And yeah, if you want to watch crazy people, Central Park is THE place to do it. No trip to "the city" is complete w/o time planned for exactly that activity. Just a little local tip there

 

[razeontherock]

They are doing nothing of the kind. These people are Sufis. Shall I provide you with links detailing the attacks Sufis in Wahabbi or Salafii countries have to put up with?

You're the expert on American culture now? Your references are relevant HOW? PROTIP: in NYC, there are many ways to incite violence against your person. It would be advisable not to engage in such practice, should you ever be found there. OTOH, you can also talk to anyone about anything.

 

[kiwimac]

I lived in the US matey. But this is not about me, this is about Sufis who are attacked by the more radical extremists of Islam and now Christianity. Does this seem acceptable to you? As for them opening the building on an anniversary of Sept 11, perhaps the following might help.

Is the center scheduled to open on Sept. 11, 2011?

Organizers say no. As best we can determine, the idea that the cultural center and mosque would open that day is unfounded speculation. Project organizers say that no official date has been set for the opening of the proposed center. Imam Rauf told Newsday back in May that it could take anywhere from 18 months to three years to raise the money to complete the project, and added that the center wouldn’t open on the anniversary of Sept. 11. Project organizers took to the social networking site Twitter as recently as Aug. 20 to knock down the claim, saying: "Reports that we will open on 9/11 or begin construction on 9/11 are false and inflammatory. Our timeline to build is 18 - 38 months."

The idea that the center and mosque would open on Sept. 11, 2011 — the 10-year anniversary of the terrorist attacks in 2001 — has been bandied about on blogs and discussion boards. The American Freedom Defense Initiative sponsored advertisements that may have also contributed to that thought. The initiative’s ads appeared on New York City buses and asked, "Why There?," with an image of a plane flying into a burning World Trade Center, next to a rendering of the proposed building with the words "September 11, 2011, WTC Mega Mosque."

Source:

 

[seekthelord]

MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST,

In my opinion, it would be well for all Christians to keep clearly and passionately in our minds/hearts/spirits a clear realization that the proposed burning of the Quran on 9/11 by an alleged "christian" alleged "church" is neither Christian nor a valid expression of the feelings of any portion of the Body of Christ.

W.W.J.D. may be a trite cliché, but it is still a valid measuring stick as to what is Christian and what is not. THIS TRAVESTY IS NOT!

ephraim

If I said as a christian that God's wrath has appeared in a Muslim country because of their disbelief in my God or because of their protection of Muslim extremists and this stirred up Muslim extremists in that country to burn as many versions of the bible they can get their hands on would that affect your faith or your disgust of Muslims?
Or would it affect your bible?
Or would it affect your government?

seekthelord

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

raze, are you saying that muslims cannot be "true" Americans? Whatever happened to the melting pot myth? White Christian middle class suburbanites?

 

[razeontherock]

I lived in the US matey. But this is not about me, this is about Sufis

NYC is like NO PLACE ELSE, and New Yorkers are like NO OTHER PEOPLE. You haven't lived there, and this is most certainly NOT about Sufis, and NOBODY said anything about any "opening date" of the building.

Got relevance? No? Ok then.

 

[razeontherock]

raze, are you saying that muslims cannot be "true" Americans? Whatever happened to the melting pot myth? White Christian middle class suburbanites?

Where did i say that, or anything even remotely close to it? On the contrary, a "true" American wouldn't be causing as much conflict as possible, esp not if they lived in NYC. Your'e the one that goes on about the only objective morality is survival instinct, right?

And the melting pot is no myth - I grew up in it and am a product of it. 5 minutes in one direction and you're in the worst ghetto imaginable, 5 minutes in the other direction and it's millionaire territory. With no prejudice possible, because anybody you decide to be prejudice against, there's more than enough of them to kill you and they will. Oh, and you don't say the word mafia in public either.

Gramma was the 13th child, born on the boat on the way over ...

Are we back to the FL nutjobs yet? Mounting pressure on them not to go through with it. How many Korans did they buy, anyway? Really the whole thing was just a marketing ploy by the printing house ...

 

[mcswan]

I am ashamed for Americans to be so sensitive over this. It's not like the Muslims were burning Bibles, or even the American flag, in which case I'd be on your side!

If you think that Muslims around the world aren't burning bibles, and churches, and killing Christians, you have your eyes and ears closed.

Justify This!: Australia : Muslim Students Urinate, Spit On Then Burn Bible

Muslims burn 6 Christians to death after false allegations :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy Crosses - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

Muslim Fanatics in Nigeria Burn Down 10 Churches | Worthy Christian News


And just in case you might be concerned that Muslim countries aren't burning bibles fast enough, we'll have our military do it them:

Military burns unsolicited Bibles sent to Afghanistan - CNN.com

 

[awitch]

Mounting pressure on them not to go through with it. How many Korans did they buy, anyway? Really the whole thing was just a marketing ploy by the printing house ...

They didn't...most of them were mailed to the church from "donors". At last count they had about 150 and planned to burn 200.

 

[Eudaimonist]

If you think that Muslims around the world aren't burning bibles, and churches, and killing Christians, you have your eyes and ears closed.

I meant the Muslims around the community center in NYC. Who did you think I meant?

And I hope you aren't suggesting that all Muslims approve of burning Bibles and churches, and killing Christians?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[mcswan]

They are staking their claim on ground they took over, by force, with the intention to keep taking over ground, by force, until this is a Muslim Nation. If that isn't the clear message they intend to convey, they should conduct the affair in a peaceable manner, rather than standing up to the protest of an overwhelming majority (71%) of New Yorkers.

If they were holding out an olive branch, at the first sign of conflict they would merely re-schedule the ceremony for a different date. It's been scheduled for a LONG time already! They have no intention of being peaceable.

They're looking for conflict, and as much as they can get. If they lose the battle, it still furthers their cause in the war. (So to speak) Regardless of their motives, they're playing into the hands of those that say all of Islam seeks Armeggeddon, what they call "the Mother of all battles." Remember when that phrase was actually used, and by whom?

This is a sensitive issue, and should be treated as such. These plans are not merely insensitive, but inflammatory by design. Taking over what many consider to be hallowed ground is FAR more significant than burning a flag, or a Bible, all of which can be replaced.

Right!!

Gabriel Scheinmann
The West, Islam and Sharia: Building Mosques on Sacred Sites of Defeated Enemies a Symbol of Conquest

"The real issue behind the controversy that has erupted over plans to build a 15-story cultural center, mosque and madrassa a few yards from Ground Zero is not only about the mysterious funding behind the Cordoba Center initiative, or whether or not its founders and backers have malign intentions."


"It is primarily about understanding how Muslims across the world, in particular Islamists, would view the conversion of the site of the greatest Muslim attack on U.S. soil into a Muslim house of worship.

Given the long history of mosque-building following Muslim military victories, the building of the Cordoba House on Ground Zero will be seen in the same light as the Muslim conquests of Mecca, Jerusalem, and Constantinople."

"Whereas Americans hope that the attacks on New York City and Washington are seen as the clarion's call for aggressive American action to counter Islamist ideology, the construction of the Ground Zero Mosque will be seen by the same Islamists as its first step towards the decline of America."

"Bin Laden and his Islamists would love nothing better to plant the flag of Islam in the cultural capital of the West. This would not be read in the Muslim world as a sign of the West's tolerance, but of its weakness. In its long history of conquest, Islam has habitually converted the scared shrines of its enemies into mosques and madrasas. A cursory look at the world's most famous mosques lays bare the fact that many were former houses of worships of defeated enemies."

 

[mcswan]

And I hope you aren't suggesting that all Muslims approve of burning Bibles and churches, and killing Christians?


eudaimonia,

Mark

No, I'm not. But why do you think that's important? Not all Germans were Nazis either, but it was the Nazis who controlled the course of history. Very few raised their voices against the Nazis, and those who did were ineffective, and that's instructive.

 

[Eudaimonist]

No, I'm not. But why do you think that's important? Not all Germans were Nazis either, but it was the Nazis who controlled the course of history. Very few raised their voices against the Nazis, and those who did were ineffective, and that's instructive.

Then raise your voice against terrorists and extremists. None of that means that one should feel angered that Muslims are building a community center in NYC.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ephraimanesti]

If you think that Muslims around the world aren't burning bibles, and churches, and killing Christians, you have your eyes and ears closed.

Justify This!: Australia : Muslim Students Urinate, Spit On Then Burn Bible

Muslims burn 6 Christians to death after false allegations :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy Crosses - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

Muslim Fanatics in Nigeria Burn Down 10 Churches | Worthy Christian News

And just in case you might be concerned that Muslim countries aren't burning bibles fast enough, we'll have our military do it them:

Military burns unsolicited Bibles sent to Afghanistan - CNN.com

MY DEAR BROTHER,

These things cannot be "justified"--they can only be FORGIVEN.

These people cannot be "excused"--they can only be LOVED.

"God does not hurry over things; time is His, not mine. And I, little creature, a man, have been called to be transformed into God by sharing His life. And what transforms me is the charity which He pours into my heart.

"LOVE TRANSFORMS ME SLOWLY INTO GOD."​

​

--from LETTERS FROM THE DESERT by Carlo Carretto​

 

[mcswan]

MY DEAR BROTHER,

These things cannot be "justified"--they can only be FORGIVEN.

These people cannot be "excused"--they can only be LOVED.

I think you're right.

But I'm not asked for these things to be justified or excused. I post them in response to comments that seem to promote a view of

'See how evil and hateful Christianity is, and how blessed and loving Islam is.'

'Always explain away hateful acts by individual Muslims as being non-representative, but never those by individual Christians.'

 

[SanFrank]

As to the OP, I would agree that violence is never a solution, however, the burning of some books is a statement on the rejection of islam. It is clear and to the point. It is valid in purging theology of a religion. Hurting some feelings is a mute point when theologically, heaven or hell is the destination for someone's choice of religion.