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Featured This Is My Body

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

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    For those of you transubstantiationists and consubstantiationists...

    What do you mean when you say that the elements become the body and blood of Christ. Surely you cannot mean this in a physical sense, since nothing physically changes in the elements after consecration or upon consumption. So what do you mean?
     
  2. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    I've never heard of those two terms, transubstantiationists and consubstantiationists, but I do know that the kingdom of heaven is a spiritual concept, as are the body and blood of Christ. Both are real, neither can be touched.
     
  3. Winken

    Winken Jonah !!! Supporter

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    I'm thinking that the Catholic forum would be the place to get an answer to your question.
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    They mean that something physically changes in the elements at the consecration.
     
  5. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Two different attempts to explain the unexplainable, how Christ's flesh and blood are truly present in the consecrated gifts.
     
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  6. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

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    I'm not asking you to explain the unexplainable. I'm asking you to explain what you mean when you say that the elements are the body of Christ.

    If you cannot say what you mean, then is it possible that the words don't mean anything at all?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  7. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

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    What is the something that changes?
     
  8. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    According to those Christians, it's the substance of the bread and wine.
     
  9. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    The accidents don't change. The substance changes, though. The fact that you cannot see the change doesn't really mean that it didn't change. Catholicism teaches that it does change.
     
  10. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

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    Could you elaborate on that? What is meant when you say that the substance changes?
     
  11. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    What did He mean when He said it? It's not as though we made it up, is it? For my part, I take the Word of our Lord Christ at face value unless I have a logical reason to do otherwise. He said it's His Body and Blood, and never backed away from it even when it bothered those who heard it. Good enough for me.
     
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  12. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    1 Corinthians 11

    23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
    24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
    26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

    Now if you're amind to spiritualize that, consider:

    27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
    28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
    29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
     
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  13. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    Since I was going thru my notes anyway and couldn't find the word for word on John 6, this is a further explaination of what spiritualization of eating his flesh entails. It's from the commentaries in the Recovery bible.

    The eucharist is in John 6
    John 6:35
    Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.​
    His flesh is life. As the lamb of God He feeds and redeems, before the fall as the tree of life he was just for feeding on. Then in dying for us He gave His flesh so that we could have life. Blood is also necessary for redemption. Separating the flesh and blood in verse 54 of John 6 clearly means His death.
    John 6:47
    Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life

    Revelation 2:7

    7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

    Religion always teaches, but the Lord feeds (John 6:35). The apostle Paul did the same thing; that is, he fed the believers (1 Cor. 3:2). For the proper church life and the recovery of the church life, that is, for the proper growth in the Christian life, what we need is not merely the mental apprehension of teachings but the eating of the Lord as our bread of life in our spirit (John 6:57). Even the words of the Scripture should not be considered merely as doctrines to teach our mind but as food to nourish our spirit (Matt. 4:4; Heb. 5:12-14). Here in this epistle the Lord promised to give the overcomer to eat of the tree of life. This points back to Gen. 2:8-9, 16, which concerns the matter of eating ordained by God. In the epistle to the church in Pergamos, the Lord promised the overcomer that he would eat of the hidden manna (v. 17), which refers to the eating of manna by the children of Israel in the wilderness (Exo. 16:14-16, 31). And in the epistle to the church in Laodicea, the Lord promised to dine with the one who opens the door to Him. To dine is to eat not merely one kind of food but the riches of a feast. This may refer to the eating of the rich produce of the good land of Canaan by the children of Israel (Josh. 5:10-12). This indicates that the Lord desires to recover the eating of the proper food by God's people, the food ordained by God and typified by the tree of life, the manna, and the produce of the good land, all of which are types of the various aspects of Christ as food to us. The degradation of the church distracts God's people from the eating of Christ as their food and turns them to the teaching of doctrines for knowledge. In the church's degradation there are the teaching of Balaam (v. 14), the teaching of the Nicolaitans (v. 15), the teaching by Jezebel (v. 20), and the teaching of the deep things of Satan (v. 24). Now in these epistles the Lord came to recover the proper eating of Himself as our food supply. We must eat Him not only as the tree of life and the hidden manna but also as a feast full of His riches.

    God's original intention was that man should eat of the tree of life (Gen. 2:9, 16). Because of the fall, the way to the tree of life was closed to man (Gen. 3:22-24). Through the redemption of Christ, the way by which man could touch the tree of life, which is God Himself in Christ as life to man, was opened again (Heb. 10:19-20). But in the church's degradation, religion crept in with its knowledge to distract the believers in Christ from eating Him as the tree of life. Hence, the Lord promised to grant the overcomers to eat of Himself as the tree of life in the Paradise of God, as a reward. This is an incentive for them to leave religion with its knowledge and return to the enjoyment of Himself. This promise of the Lord restores the church to God's original intention according to His economy. What the Lord wants the overcomers to do is what the whole church should do in God's economy. Because of the church's degradation, the Lord came to call the overcomers to replace the church in the accomplishing of God's economy.

    The eating of the tree of life not only was God's original intention concerning man but also will be the eternal issue of God's redemption. All God's redeemed people will enjoy the tree of life, which is Christ with all the divine riches as the redeemed's eternal portion for eternity (Rev. 22:2, 14, 19). Because of religion's distraction and the church's degradation, the Lord in His wisdom made the enjoyment of Himself in the coming kingdom a reward in order to encourage His believers to overcome religion's distracting knowledge in teachings and return to the enjoyment of Himself as the life supply in the church life today for the accomplishing of God's economy.

    Eating the tree of life, that is, enjoying Christ as our life supply, should be the primary matter in the church life. The content of the church life depends on the enjoyment of Christ. The more we enjoy Him, the richer the content will be. But to enjoy Christ requires us to love Him with the first love. If we leave our first love toward the Lord, we will miss the enjoyment of Christ and lose the testimony of Jesus; consequently, the lampstand will be removed from us. These three things — loving the Lord, enjoying the Lord, and being the testimony of the Lord — go together.​
     
  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    If you take him at his word (which I agree is right) then you believe that it is his body IN SOME SENSE. But if you think you are taking him at his word when you believe in Transubstantiation, you actually are not just taking him at his word. Rather, you are choosing the particular way (among other possibilities) that this occurs.

    I am sure that you do not believe that you are consuming the very body he "wore" when on Earth, those particular arms and toes, etc., or else there wouldn't be enough of it to go around, century after century, and on tens of thousands of altars around the world every Sunday.

    No, you don't. So you qualify what you mean when you say 'take him at his word' and, in doing so, depart from your own announced standard.
     
  15. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Accidents are what you see. Substance is what is there. We see bread and wine. When it's elevated it is bread and wine. But the substance changes. What's actually there is flesh and blood.
     
  16. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

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    I'm afraid I have to ask you to clarify further.

    When you say "actually there", what do you mean? Do you mean physically present? Do you mean spiritually present? Do you mean symbolically present?
     
  17. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    So how many molecules make up God? Who are you to say there's not enough of Him to go around? Lanciano proved that transubstantiation happens. Many other miracles, too. We're not required to understand it. We are required to believe it. They're Jesus' own words, after all.
    How did he cure the man with a withered hand? How did he cure the blind and feed the hungry? It's out of our understanding, yet they all happened. Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. That's what I believe. And most Catholics.
     
  18. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Actually means physically.
     
  19. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

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    To say that the elements physically become the body and blood of Christ would suggest a physical transformation - which clearly does not take place.
     
  20. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    It does because, as Jipsah said, Christ said it did. That you cannot see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
     
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