This is going to sound un-educated, but where in the Bible does it say that...

[Freecube23]

that we should have a pope? or where in it does it evidence that Peter was the first pope?

 

[Knowledge3]

Ask your question in OBOB:here

http://www.christianforums.com/f26-one-bread-one-body-catholic.html

They will be able to help you.

 

[Rick Otto]

It is a construction.

 

[Boniface]

Construction? Yes, constructed by the Lord:

11 " 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice. (Ezekiel 34:11-16)

God is the one to feed his sheep, to tend his flock, this was brought to fruition in Jesus Christ...

11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10: 11-18)

The Lord a gave this responsibility to one man, St. Peter, did this responsibility die with the Saint? No, it is passed through is office...The Pope.

15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." 17The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." 18Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." (John 21:15-18)

Seems very biblical to me.....

 

[Freecube23]

Construction? Yes, constructed by the Lord:

11 " 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice. (Ezekiel 34:11-16)

God is the one to feed his sheep, to tend his flock, this was brought to fruition in Jesus Christ...

11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10: 11-18)

The Lord a gave this responsibility to one man, St. Peter, did this responsibility die with the Saint? No, it is passed through is office...The Pope.

15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." 17The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." 18Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." (John 21:15-18)

Seems very biblical to me.....

Those first 2 passages have nothing to do with a pope.

The last seems to be addressing Peter to continue spreading the gospel and do good works, but it does not seem to give him any special authority over other Christians, as all peoples are Christ's sheep, not just Christians. Also it doesnt seem like Jesus is allowing for the continuance of anyone with any special authority.

 

[Boniface]

Those first 2 passages have nothing to do with a pope.

The last seems to be addressing Peter to continue spreading the gospel and do good works, but it does not seem to give him any special authority over other Christians, as all peoples are Christ's sheep, not just Christians. Also it doesnt seem like Jesus is allowing for the continuance of anyone with any special authority.

They do have something to do with the Pope, when they are all tied together...if you read the entire passage from Ezekiel you will see that God stripped the "shepherds" of their pastoral care and took it unto himself. Christ came to earth, and demonstrated he was God by referring to himself as the Good Shepherd then he gave the responsibility for Pastoral care to St. Peter--to the office of the Pope.

 

[Freecube23]

They do have something to do with the Pope, when they are all tied together...if you read the entire passage from Ezekiel you will see that God stripped the "shepherds" of their pastoral care and took it unto himself. Christ came to earth, and demonstrated he was God by referring to himself as the Good Shepherd then he gave the responsibility for Pastoral care to St. Peter--to the office of the Pope.

It seems to me that He was just telling Peter to look after people, in Ezekiel people had not been given the Holy Spirit yet, so they may have not been fit, but now after He came, he gave it to Peter, aswell as all of us. Therefore we aswell as Him are set to be caretakers of His sheep. He also didnt instruct us to appoint leaders to intercede to Him, who we already have fellowship with.

 

[TheListener]

that we should have a pope? or where in it does it evidence that Peter was the first pope?

You tell me where in the Bible it says "Everything you need to know is ONLY found in the Bible" and I'll show you where it says you must have a pope.

 

[Boniface]

It seems to me that He was just telling Peter to look after people, in Ezekiel people had not been given the Holy Spirit yet, so they may have not been fit, but now after He came, he gave it to Peter, aswell as all of us. Therefore we aswell as Him are set to be caretakers of His sheep. He also didnt instruct us to appoint leaders to intercede to Him, who we already have fellowship with.

Yes, Jesus was telling St. Peter to look after people...his people. St. John tells us that not everything Jesus said or did could be written, therefore it seems that if something was written, it must be important. Nothing Christ did or said was without purpose...

He didnt appoint this task to St. Peter and the apostles He appointed the task to St. Peter alone, why? Why would He give the keys to the kingdom to St. Peter alone? Why would He give St. Peter the authority to bind and loose? Why is St. Peter always listed first among the Apostles? Why?

As far as interceding for each other, Jesus did instruct us to pray for each other...that is was intercession is, praying to God for someone, I am sure you do this, no?

 

[Freecube23]

Yes, Jesus was telling St. Peter to look after people...his people. St. John tells us that not everything Jesus said or did could be written, therefore it seems that if something was written, it must be important. Nothing Christ did or said was without purpose...

He didnt appoint this task to St. Peter and the apostles He appointed the task to St. Peter alone, why? Why would He give the keys to the kingdom to St. Peter alone? Why would He give St. Peter the authority to bind and loose? Why is St. Peter always listed first among the Apostles? Why?

As far as interceding for each other, Jesus did instruct us to pray for each other...that is was intercession is, praying to God for someone, I am sure you do this, no?

Sheep is a general term which refers to people in general, as we're all created by Him. Not JUST Christians. Also things can be written that are pulled out of context, or mis-interpreted, which IMO is being done here. Peter was also key in numerous other places, walking on water (iirc), denying Him 3 times, and numerous other occasions. This does however not give him favoritism, He was just the one to do those things.

"He appointed the task to St. Peter alone, why? Why would He give the keys to the kingdom to St. Peter alone? Why would He give St. Peter the authority to bind and loose?"

these verses do not indicate once that it is ONLY for Peter to care for His sheep, nor do they indicate that He gave the keys to the kingdom of God to Peter, nor do they say He gave Peter the authority to bind and loose. Giving Peter the keys to the kingdom as far as I can tell is completely un biblical.

 

[stray bullet]

Matthew 16:18-19 is a clear reference to Peter receiving the keys.

The statement "thou art Peter" makes no sense unless Jesus is tying Simon's new name, his role essentially, to the 'rock'.

Simon didn't forget it and Jesus doesn't say things that make no sense. Looking through that section, it makes less sense language-wise. Peter is the subject, over and over, and we are to believe that Peter, who starts as the subject of the 18th verse, is suddenly not to subject halfway through the sentence, only to become the subject of 19th, as he was before the 18th?

Jesus, while talking about Peter suddenly, mid-sentence, talked about another subject entirely? That makes no sense.
You have to do some very fancy dancing with the language to convince me Jesus switched subjects, mid-sentence. He didn't say, "Thou art Peter, and by the way......". It's, Thou art Peter and upon this rock...

The belief that Peter was the founder of the See of Rome and the leader of the Church is a very old apostolic teaching, which predates the New Testament.

 

[stray bullet]

Name changes are quite significant in the Old Testament. Abram, Abraham, etc.

Funny that two apostles had their names change- Simon was completely altered to Peter, while Saul become Paul. Both of them ended up in Rome, Peter being buried on Vatican hill, where his successors remained for 2000 years.

 

[Freecube23]

Matthew 16:18-19 is a clear reference to Peter receiving the keys.

The statement "thou art Peter" makes no sense unless Jesus is tying Simon's new name, his role essentially, to the 'rock'.

Simon didn't forget it and Jesus doesn't say things that make no sense. Looking through that section, it makes less sense language-wise. Peter is the subject, over and over, and we are to believe that Peter, who starts as the subject of the 18th verse, is suddenly not to subject halfway through the sentence, only to become the subject of 19th, as he was before the 18th?

Jesus, while talking about Peter suddenly, mid-sentence, talked about another subject entirely? That makes no sense.
You have to do some very fancy dancing with the language to convince me Jesus switched subjects, mid-sentence. He didn't say, "Thou art Peter, and by the way......". It's, Thou art Peter and upon this rock...

The belief that Peter was the founder of the See of Rome and the leader of the Church is a very old apostolic teaching, which predates the New Testament.

I still dont understand how having the keys makes him a pope, or where the Bible says that we should elect others.

 

[Boniface]

Sheep is a general term which refers to people in general, as we're all created by Him. Not JUST Christians. Also things can be written that are pulled out of context, or mis-interpreted, which IMO is being done here. Peter was also key in numerous other places, walking on water (iirc), denying Him 3 times, and numerous other occasions. This does however not give him favoritism, He was just the one to do those things.

"He appointed the task to St. Peter alone, why? Why would He give the keys to the kingdom to St. Peter alone? Why would He give St. Peter the authority to bind and loose?"

these verses do not indicate once that it is ONLY for Peter to care for His sheep, nor do they indicate that He gave the keys to the kingdom of God to Peter, nor do they say He gave Peter the authority to bind and loose. Giving Peter the keys to the kingdom as far as I can tell is completely un biblical.

Sheep is a general term which refers to people in general, as we're all created by Him. Not JUST Christians.

I agree! Jesus did not come only for Christians or the elect, but for all people. The Pope is not intended to lead only Catholics, but all people, He is the Vicar of Christ…

Also things can be written that are pulled out of context, or mis-interpreted, which IMO is being done here. Peter was also key in numerous other places, walking on water (iirc), denying Him 3 times, and numerous other occasions. This does however not give him favoritism, He was just the one to do those things.

Please tell me how I have pulled anything out of context? If the verses don’t fit, in your estimation, show me how. There is a clear and undeniable primacy of St. Peter in the gospels. One can argue many things about the office of the Pope, but not the primacy of St. Peter. Indeed, St. Peter was the ONLY one to step out in faith, St. Peter “messed up” and denied Christ, to which Christ forgave him. The Popes throughout history have occasionally “messed up” (to put it mildly) but they have not led the Church into doctrinal error.

"He appointed the task to St. Peter alone, why? Why would He give the keys to the kingdom to St. Peter alone? Why would He give St. Peter the authority to bind and loose?"

these verses do not indicate once that it is ONLY for Peter to care for His sheep, nor do they indicate that He gave the keys to the kingdom of God to Peter, nor do they say He gave Peter the authority to bind and loose. Giving Peter the keys to the kingdom as far as I can tell is completely un biblical.

The passage I quoted from St. John does indeed indicate that it was only St. Peter who was trusted to feed his sheep. To whom else was the Lord speaking?

18</SPAN>And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you </SPAN>bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matt 16:18-19)

 

[hsilgne]

It seems to me that He was just telling Peter to look after people, in Ezekiel people had not been given the Holy Spirit yet, so they may have not been fit, but now after He came, he gave it to Peter, aswell as all of us. Therefore we aswell as Him are set to be caretakers of His sheep. He also didnt instruct us to appoint leaders to intercede to Him, who we already have fellowship with.

Hi Freecube23,

I hope I can help you better understand the Catholic faith.

I have a couple questions for you.

Jesus had many many disciples while He walked the earth(and of course exponentially more as time has passed), but of those discples there were only 12 appointed apostles(+ Judas).

Why is that?

Why are the apostles set apart from the "regular", yet zealous, followers of the day?

Also,

Why does Jesus centre Peter out so much throughout the Gospels? and Why does He say the things He says to Peter 'specifically"?

Another question...
If asked on the spot with no reference material, could you name all 13 apostles? Kudos to you if you can. I'm sure there are many people that can but my guess is the vast majority of Christians could not just name all of them(aside from Peter and Judas) without a bit of a struggle.
Honestly, I cannot rhyme them off without struggling through. But I know it's "in there"(my head) so to speak.

My point is, the bible is implicit, not explicit. The Trinity for example, is an implied Truth. You will not find the word Trinity in Scripture. Yet we can be certain it has been revealed to us as Truth. This is true for many Truths revealed to us through the Word of God.

As someone suggested, you may wish to visit us at OBOB if you sincerely wish to learn more.

Peace.

 

[stray bullet]

I still dont understand how having the keys makes him a pope, or where the Bible says that we should elect others.

The term 'Pope' is what we call the Bishop of Rome. "Bishop" is very biblical- it refers to someone ordained and appointed to a specific region. Region being about the size of a city-state, or about the size of part of an American state.

We know from the bible that the apostles appointed others- they picked Matthias to replace Judas. They also ordained Bishops- Bishop is someone who has the full authority of an apostle, but remains the leader of a region. The word apostle relates to missionary- an apostles holds Christ's authority as he goes through various places preaching, but a bishop hold that authority as he leads a particular place or "Church".

Christ gave Peter the final authority among the apostles. Afterall, he was the first to be revealed the true nature of Christ, while John 21 shows their close relationship.

The apostles established five "Sees" or Chairs, to govern as their successors. Mark founded one at Alexandria, James was seated in Jerusalem, Andrew at Constantinople, while Peter founded Antioch and Rome. Rome was the city Paul wanted to make it to and he traveled there with Peter. We know from the bible that Paul was to go to Rome and Peter to be martyred.

According to Christian tradition and non-canonical/Christian sources, they went to Rome and were both killed there. As Bishop of Rome, Peter's authority would go to the next Bishop- who was Linus (Linus is mentioned in the bible). This would continue on to Benedict XVI.

 

[TheListener]

Read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Upon-This-Roc...ef=sr_1_1/002-8946330-0840055?ie=UTF8&s=books

It explains everything. This goes for everyone in this forum. I read it and I was convinced %100 after I read a quarter of the book. By the end, you will have no doubts left about the supremacy of Rome.

Editorial Review
As an Evangelical Protestant, Stephen Ray realized that the real issue dividing Catholics and Protestants was authority. Everything else was secondary to the issue of authority. Protestants accept the authority of the Bible alone, whereas Catholics understand the authority to be residing in the Magisterium, the Scriptures and the Sacred Tradition. Ray goes through the Scriptures and writings from the first five centuries of the early Church to demonstrate that the early Christians had a clear understanding of the primacy of Peter in the See of Rome. He tackles the tough issues in an attempt to expose how the opposition is misunderstanding the Scriptures and history. He uses many Evangelical Protestant scholars and historians to support the Catholic position. This book contains the most complete compilation of Scriptural and Patristic quotations on the primacy of Peter and the Papal office of any book currently available.

 

[Rick Otto]

I sense the humor & fun both you and The Listener have in defending your faith. Having said that... I cautiously proceed to remind you of all the times Jesus responded to queries & disutes about who was greatest among the apostles:
Mark 9:33 They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, "What were you arguing about on the road?" 34 But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest. 35 Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all." 36 He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37 "Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me." 38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." 39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us.

Luke 9:43 And they were all amazed at the greatness of God. While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 "Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men." 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it. 46 An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48 Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all--he is the greatest." 49 "Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us." 50 "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."

Luke 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
23: And they began to inquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
24: And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25: And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26: But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27: For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
28: Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

>>Peter has a primacy in certain senses of the word, but primacy is a an anti-value in the structural plan for church leadership that Jesus & scripture portrays:
Lu 9:48 - And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
>>>>Not the former fisherman who is given keys, but the formerly homicidal Pharisee, Paul, is Holy Spirit appointed to articulate doctrine:
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

"The Pope is the Vicar of Christ."

That would be a very high office indeed and one of immense proportions.

A vicar is someone "subordinate" to the Master and Ruler.

A vicar would be one to represent His Master's wishes and speak "for" the Master. But when he speaks "instead" of the Master, has not then the Vicar crossed his own boundary as the "Vicar"?

And if Peter was the first Pope, shouldn't he be given the impression to as one to be listened to and not added to, or as oft is the case, even contradicted?

And just what do you do with that upstart Paul who was never under the first Pope? If the NT were a Western movie, Paul would have been Wyatt Earp and Peter would have been the deputy at best tryin not to get in the way of things.

My pastor speaks for Christ too. When is the Pope going to start?

Cheers,
Cosmic

 

[ScottBot]

that we should have a pope? or where in it does it evidence that Peter was the first pope?

No problem, as soon as you can point out the the bible is sufficient as a rule of faith.

Not essential.....sufficient. These two things are very different.

Everything that is sufficient is also by nature essential, but not everything that is essential is sufficient. Take breathing. It would be silly of me to make the arguement that breathing is not essential to sustain life. Of course it is, if you don't breath, you die. However, it would be just as silly for me to make the arguement that breathing is sufficient for life. That would be saying that blood circulation is non-essential, or that nutrition is non-essential, or water is non-essential. if an article is sufficient, then that is ALL you need, you need nothing else.

The bible never makes this claim for itself. It does make thte claim that it is essential for the spiritual health of the believer, but never claims itself to be sufficient.