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This generation shall not pass away...

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Achilles6129, Sep 28, 2013.

  1. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    I still think it refers to kind of generation that will exist till the "1" Return of Jesus.

    Just ol' old Jack, ie, thank God only one of a kind
     
  2. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    It originally had it's normal sense, until the Father decided that 'right after' the DofJ would not be the end of normal history as we know it and delayed.
     
  3. coraline

    coraline Active Member

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    Jesus did not say "this kind" -

    He said "this generation!"
     
  4. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    From the English structure of thoughts, ie, using the Text, I have to agree with you; however Contextually at Matt.24:34, "this generation" refers to that contemporary generation is untenable from the ancient language's way of looking at it.

    A simple look at the use of dor in the O.T. and at its regular translation by genea in the LXX reveals that a kind of men is referred to, the evil kind that reproduces and succeeds itself in many physical generations.

    just ol' old refutable Jack (IITim.3:16)

    btw I learned not to run with the majority, secure in the crowd longgg ago. The majority may be in error.
     
  5. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    that generation is quite tenable Jack. Its the ordinary normal meaning. They are right there; they will be harmed or escape depending on whether they adhere to him. "How horrible it will be for your children" sounds like a generation. When he said that he was concerned about innocent people being affected, not just the perps and their "kind" of people.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  6. L0U

    L0U Regular Member

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    The early Church right after the apostle's taught that Jesus was speaking both the remnant of Jews then and in the future end at the time of anti-Christ.
    Even Augustine taught this.
    So to blame Scolfield for 'changing' the meaning of God's Word here is without merit.

    I don't know who told who that the teaching is some new thing in the Church, but I would advise otherwise:

    "But that those carnal Israelites who are now unwilling to believe in Christ shall afterward believe, that is, their children shall (for they themselves, of course, shall go to their own place by dying), this same prophet testifies, saying, “For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, without a prince, without a sacrifice, without an altar, without a priesthood, without manifestations." Who does not see that the Jews are now thus? But let us hear what he adds: “And afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king, and shall be amazed at the Lord and at His goodness in the latter days."

    (Augustine- Chapter 28.—Of the Things Pertaining to the Gospel of Christ Which Hosea and Amos Prohesied.)
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    "That the last judgment, then, shall be administered by Jesus Christ in the manner predicted in the sacred writings is denied or doubted by no one, unless by those who, through some incredible animosity or blindness, decline to believe these writings, though already their truth is demonstrated to all the world. And at or in connection with that judgment the following events shall come to pass, as we have learned: Elias the Tishbite shall come; the Jews shall believe; Antichrist shall persecute; Christ shall judge; the dead shall rise; the good and the wicked shall be separated; the world shall be burned and renewed. All these things, we believe, shall come to pass; but how, or in what order, human understanding cannot perfectly teach us, but only the experience of the events
    themselves. My opinion, however, is, that they will happen in the order in which I have related
    ."

    (Augustine-Chapter 30.—That in the Books of the Old Testament, Where It is Said that God Shall Judge the World, the Person of Christ is Not Explicitly Indicated, But It Plainly Appears from Some Passages in Which the Lord God Speaks that Christ is Meant.)
     
  7. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    Don't forget about Matt.27:25, ie, even cruely adding their children till today, ie, all future generations of Jews.

    btw you only missed one more point, ie, I almost missed it: Matt.24:34: already in v.14 we were referred to "the end," and in vs.29-31 the end itself is described, ie, "all these things shall occur" before this generation passes away - the succession of signs through the ages while this kind of men continues and their tribe has not ceased yet.

    Accordingly, "this generation" does not mean the human race, nor does it refer to Christians, nor all the wicked included in "this generation."

    Again, "this generation" consists of the type of Jews whom Jesus contended with during this Tuesday, 21:23-23:39.

    Just ol' old Jack's view
     
  8. coraline

    coraline Active Member

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    Jesus referred to time frame, not to a "type" of Jew.

    By the time of Christ in the Bible, a "generation " was about 38 years. A "generation" was the average age of the parents when they had their children.
     
  9. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    If you're trying to solve the delayed coming that was to take place in that generation, there is no resolution other than the Father's option to delay. It's not going to be found in an elastic definition of generation.
     
  10. coraline

    coraline Active Member

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    You might be right on here, where only some kind of futurism is allowed to be gospel truth.

    But that's why full preterism is Biblically sound. God's words are clear & true.

    So you can understand why I rest my case.

    Thanks :)
     
  11. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

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    Is this the same New Testament word for "generation" as in

    so many "generations" form Abraham til whatever

    from David til whenever

    ?

    I have not looked, Jack, but if genea is same in the "this generation" passage as in the

    "so many GENERATIONS from this to that"

    I have to see GENERATION as a TEMPORAL thing - flat out

    and would have to spew out of my mouth (or yours, rather)

    the idea that "generation" means "a kind of men"

    will research
     
  12. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

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    Strong's G1074 - genea

    fathered, birth, nativity

    that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
    the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a
    genealogy

    metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
    esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation

    the whole multitude of men living at the same time

    an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years



    It seems, Jack, that you are limiting the definition of Genea (in our passage in question) to the one here described as

    " metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
    esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation"

    But if that were so -- wouldn't the "passing away" of that "group of men very like each other" -- wouldnt that mean a passing away in time?

    If it was a GROUP OF MEN or a KIND OF MEN that existed in Jesus' time; then either eventually they would all die

    or then what was meant was that a GROUP/kind of men like that would CONTINUE TO BE GENeraTED year after year, decade after decade, century after century

    UNTIL

    something happenned to cause the CONTINUOUS production of this "kind of men"

    to NO LONGER be produced

    this is far-fetched, Jack.

    Since we have a technical sub-definition of the Strongs word involved -- which admittedly to all who will read the various definitions involved would say that the

    "kind of men" sub-definition is

    quite drastically different from all the other TEMPORAL definitions

    then the CONTEXT would decide which sub-definition is used, right?

    I would say in all sincerity that THE ONUS IS ON YOU

    to

    PROVE

    that a "NON-TEMPORAL" meaning of "generation" is meant.


    I see the normal language of Christ in this context to indicate a TEMPORAL generation, and I feel that that outlook CARRIES THE FIELD among exegetes.

    You have to have a little something more than

    "the majority view may not always be right"

    as A JUSTIFICATION

    for seeing "genertaion" in this context as "a type of men"

    you don't really expect people to TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT


    and just SWALLOW it, do you?
     
  13. Anto9us

    Anto9us Ecumenical loose canon

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    another thing to remember is that the "this generation" statement in Matt 24 does not STAND ALONE in the idea of

    "this living generation of Jesus' time will not pass away til all be fulfilled"

    we have another passage that says

    "THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE WHO WILL NOT TASTE DEATH TIL THEY SEE..."

    and a person can put the two together and conclude that the "this generation" mentioned by Jesus is TEMPORAL, rather than "a kind of men"

    because the "some standing here" passage does not deal with this "generation" word at all, but gives information throwing light on how to take which sub-definition of GENERATION on a passage whose MEANING is the same

    people living at the time of Jesus will not all die

    (iow - that GENERATION will not completely pass away)

    til they see the PAROUSIA of Christ - a coming in judgement of the things herein described - destruction of Jerusalem, passing away of Mosaic covenant, the "fulfillment of all things" etc

    (and yes, if ye can accept it - heaven and earth passing away and the elements of the old covenant melting in fervent heat)

    I'm sorry, but I see the KIND OF MEN option for a definition of GENERATION to be used in the "this generation shall not pass away" passage

    as a HUGE UNDERDOG in what slant we should accept for "this generation"

    caint buy into it Jack
     
  14. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    My fault, ie, lack of lucidity. Matt.24:24, "kind of men referred to," eg, contextually using the MT and the LXX: Ps.12:7 (v.8), "Thou shall preserve them from this generation forever"; As in Matt.24:34, points to the present and character it has assumed, ie, a more general kind of men is referred to than those in vs.3-5 (vs.4-6). See Ps.78:8 also, the fathers (many physical generations of them; Found another, Ps.14:5, "the generation of the righteous - wow Psalms loaded!

    Just ol' old Jack
     
  15. coraline

    coraline Active Member

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    Here's a summarized exegesis on Jesus' use of the phrase "this generation"
    by Pastor D. Curtis:

    Let's start by examining the meaning of the word "generation." Generation, in our text, comes from the Greek word genea, which means, by implication: "an age." In Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the NT, we can see that the "genea" me ans: "The whole multitude of men living at the same time." William F. Arndt and Wilber Gingrich (A Greek-English Lexicon of the NT and Other Early Christian Literature) define "genea" as: "basically, the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time, contemporaries." If you look at the way Jesus used the word "generation," I think it will be abundantly clear that it always refers to His contemporaries, the Jewish people of His own period. Let's look at a few of the uses of "generation":
    that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. (Matthew 23:35-36 NASB)
    Jesus is in the temple speaking to the Jews, He says that all the judgement that He had spoken about would come upon them. I don't know of any commentator who understands this as referring to any other than the existing generation.
    "For just as the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. 25 "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. (Luke 17:24-25 NASB)
    What generation did Christ suffer many things from, and what generation rejected Him? It is clear, He is speaking of His contemporaries. Look at how some of the translations deal with Mark 13:30:
    New English Bible: "I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all."
    Today's English Version: "Remember this! All these things will happen before the people now living have all died."
    Moffatt's Translation:"I tell you truly, the present generation will not pass away, till all this happens."
    Weymouth's Translation: "I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away until all this has taken place."
    These translations make it quite clear. The meaning of the word was that of the "present" generation in the time of Christ; not to a future generation thousands of years away.
    So in etymology and usage, "generation" means: "those born at the same time, contemporaries."
    How long is a generation? John Walvoord said, "A generation is normally from thirty to one hundred years." Now, he is the only one I know of who gives it that broad of a span. Most commentators see a generation as referring to a thirty to forty year time period. More important than that, what does the Bible say about the time of a generation? Let's look and see:
    Therefore all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the time of Christ fourteen generations. (Matthew 1:17 NASB)
    In this genealogical table, we have data to estimate the length of a generation. It tells us that from the captivity in Babylon until Christ are fourteen generations. Now the date of the captivity, in the reign of Zedekiah, is said to be 586 B.C. From 586 B.C. until the birth of Christ would be about 586 years, which, divided by fourteen, makes the average length of a generation about 41 years.
     
  16. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    Since I am the antithesis of any scholar/Pastor/Minister of today, let me resurrect one of a dozen Lutheran's view, ie, these were valid scholars:

    Matt.24:34 by Mr. Krutzmann (20th century): ".....this generation has a much broader meaning then the lifetime of those who heard him....double meanings of time." Matt.23:36, "this generation" refered to them then listening to Him. context and more context.

    Have only a few more older Lutheran Commentaries and Dictionaries as unable to find Mr. Matthias Loy and Mr. Chemnitz" Commentary on this passage at this time, ie, the ones I nomallly use contextually.

    Just ol old Context non-modern Lutheran Jack
     
  17. coraline

    coraline Active Member

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    Thanks, but they aren't needed Jack.

    Pastor Curtis is a Greek scholar.
     
  18. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    In my first Semester Seminary in the ancient language's class, one of my Koine Greek professors out of Harvard was not only a valid Hebrew Prof., but also a Koine ancient Greek prof., ie, he didn't believe Jesus was God for sure, let alone all the other disagreements we had.

    He had credentials that surpassed most that I was aware of.

    Just ol' old Jack that does validate pre-1950 scholars that believe in Jesus as God for starters.

    Just ol' old small potatoes Jack
     
  19. coraline

    coraline Active Member

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    Maybe he wasn't a "Trinitarian," Jack.

    But I would agree with you on that.
     
  20. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    Amen!

    So far 49% agaisnt "kind" of generation is being referred to vs. 51% for that generation only, ie, we just need sort of a tie breaker?

    Just ol' old Jack
     
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