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This generation shall not pass away...

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Achilles6129, Sep 28, 2013.

  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Can you show me the passage where he refers to Caesar as being present? Thanks

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    "I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
    if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
    (Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)​




    .
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2013
  2. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The link below leads to a long quote from Josephus, who eventually refers to Titus, but first plainly says "Caesar" - "He" entered the building

    http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/jewishtemple.htm
     
    "As they drew closer to the Temple, they pretended not even to hear Caesar's orders, but urged the men in front to throw in more firebrands. The rebels were powerless to help; carnage and flight spread throughout.
    Most of the slain were peaceful citizens, weak and unarmed, and they were butchered where they were caught. The heap of corpses mounted higher and higher about the altar; a stream of blood flowed down the Temple's steps, and the bodies of those slain at the top slipped to the bottom.

    When Caesar failed to restrain the fury of his frenzied soldiers, and the fire could not be checked, he entered the building with his generals and looked at the holy place of the sanctuary and all its furnishings"

    weird
     
  3. Achilles6129

    Achilles6129 Veteran

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    This does not fulfill Paul's statments in 2 Thess. 2 at all. Paul says this son of perdition will come with power, signs, and lying wonders - hardly the fulfillment you're referring to. Also, he is destroyed specifically by Christ himself - again, not something that was fulfilled by the individual you cite. Paul's statements can only be talking about the antichrist.
     
  4. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul may not have known who man of sin was, but he writes like even the Thessalonians themselves knew who the restrainer was:

    2Th 2:6
    And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    2Th 2:7
    For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    withholdeth/letteth/let is all the same verb katecho in both verses

    withholder/restrainer was known to them back then it seems, but I guess we can only guess now that it was an angel

    50 AD sure is early - probably 1 & 2 thes are earliest NT writings we have
     
  5. n2thelight

    n2thelight Guest

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    Throughout recorded history, nations have always been typified by "types and figures" to describe them. Russia is the "bear", America is the "eagle", England the "lion", and Israel the "fig tree".

    So Jesus was saying that when you see ISRAEL re-blooming, whenever that would take place, that that generation would be the one that would be on the earth and living when the Last Days would occur. So if Israel was destroyed in 70 AD, and it was, when did it "bloom" again?

    May 14, 1948 is the date that history records that fact occuring. The generation that witnessed that, the WWII generation, still have not, for all intents and purposes, passed off the scene. They are still alive and with us today, and we are the people that Jesus said would be alive on the earth when the Last Days would happen.
     
  6. Jere209

    Jere209 Legend

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    MOD HAT ON

    :wave:

    As you can see, more than half of this thread has been removed. There was a bit of flaming going on, however, there were more violations relating to the FULL Preterism view than anything else. Remember, FULL Preterism discussion is not allowed in this forum. Please make yourself familiar with this SOP Guidelines before posting again.

    I apologize if I missed anyone in the cleanup notification. I tried to get all of you to give you heads up that your post has been removed, however, there were several that called for the action.

    Again, absolutely no flaming, please respect your fellow members, if you wish to discuss full preterism there is a place for that.

    God bless and carry on


    :)

    MOD HAT OFF
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  7. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  8. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Everything about Mt24A is direct, practical, Judea-located, immediate, current. But there was an allowance that the global day of judgement would be delayed, ie, would not be right on the tail of the DofJ. That's what happened.
     
  9. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Interplanner - luv ya - don't wanna sound too idiotic here...

    but...

    could you please go over once more - just for us old folks if ya will

    your constant reference to

    24A

    and

    24B

    thanks in advance.
     
  10. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    The division line is v29's 'immediately after' (all of the above). So everything he had mentioned so far was one package.

    The end of the world and the final judgement of the whole world was expected right after the DofJ. (In Luke there is not even an allowance expressed). But there is an allowance about the world's day--only the Father would decide.

    A = the 1st century situation in Judea and the DofJ
    B = the final day of judgement; the same as Rom 2, Acts 17, etc.

    There are some similarities in preparing for both, and the early church really thought B would be right after A. (Luke give no hint of extension or delay).

    Peter (2nd letter ch 3) therefore speaks to those cynics who complained that the 'coming never happened.' It makes 2 Pet 3 one of the most dynamic and relevant chapters of the NT.
     
  11. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    oh

    so "immediately after" really means

    "at least 2000 years later"?

    I dunno about this A and B division

    you say Luke doesnt have it - what about Mark?

    the OLIVET DISCOURSE is a unit

    it is presumably a speech by Jesus in a certain place in a certain time

    I wish we had a TAPE RECORDING of it, that we could translate literally from Aramaic into English - but we don't - we have 3 different versions of the same speech

    if ONE account is allegedly "split up" with a 2000 yr GAP between fulfillment of A and B

    and the dividing line is the two words "Immediately After" - which really means "at least 2000 years later"...

    oi

    ah caint see your A and B division like this

    one discourse

    about the "end of the AGE" (not end of the world - or end of Time) - but end of AION (age) - that is what the Greek says

    about the destruction of the Temple and not 1 stone being left on another

    about ALL THESE THINGS which will happen before the generation Jesus lived in would pass away

    I see no justification for "immediately after" being another "magic gap" where

    "the prophetic clock stops and waits to start clicking again"... "

    (that's what we swallowed in PreTrib concerning 69th and 70th week)

    waits to start clicking again...

    when?

    after what?

    what if it is all one thing - without artificial forced "divisions" between A and B

    its about a judgement against Jerusalem

    which is a PAROUSIA whose "delay" was a concern even in the life of Peter

    a PAROUSIA which came within a decade of Peter's death

    not that "some of it came" and "some more of it" that was supposed to be "immediately after" STILL HAS NOT COME after 2000 years

    i just cant swallow these "division lines" in these verses and "sudden jumps" across the centuries in the same passage
     
  12. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    there was no division as originally expressed, but history proved otherwise. 2 Pet 3 answers cynics about that, in harmony with 24B.

    Unless of course you think those global cosmic events did happen right after the DofJ, which I don't.

    If this is not what 2 Pet 3 is written to answer, then what? Who would scoff about 'where is the promised coming?' (not the Gospel events but the Return)

    You are quite right about the 'age.' Options:
    the end of Judaism
    the end of the 490 years
    the end of the old covenant's terms (hint: see Lk 21 say this was 'in fulfillment of all that was written')

    The only clue I can give about when that final judgement would happen is by following the model of Rev 20:3. The context asserts Christ is reigning for a huge period but that at the end there is a little freedom for Satan for a short time. He decieves the nations. this also will be stopped at the judgement day when the sentences are given and the new heavens and new earth are made.
     
  13. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    can you really not see a shift from the Judean situation at hand to v29 and the global, universal setting after? four winds, angels gathering in the heavens etc?
     
  14. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't see the shift from a "local situation" in Jerusalem to a setting of "global occurences later" - I see what you are saying, and now see why you are divvying up the Olivet Discourse into A and B - but I don't see the division that you do THE SAME WAY YOU SEE IT - as

    'this stuff ONE time - this stuff LATER'

    Luk 21:21
    Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Luk 21:22
    For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    There in the Luke version are two verses back to back - one is obviously local - (you can escape all this just by physically fleeing to the mountains) - and in the next breath Luke has it that THESE be the days of vengeance, that

    ALL

    things which are written may be fulfilled.

    I try to look at all 3 versions, Luke is the clearest because of these two back to back verses that scream to me that

    THIS IS ALL ONE JUDGEMENT - a parousia of judgement against Jerusalem as a city and 'Old Covenant Judaism' as a whole; as a "Mosaic system passing away" and its passing is described in figurative terms (stars falling, heaven and earth passing away, etc)

    the difference is of NATURE - not TEMPORAL

    the 'division' is

    literal stuff about physical Jerusalem

    blended in with FIGURATIVE things about the passing of the Mosaic system as 'heaven and earth"

    - perhaps you see a literal passing away of heaven and earth and a literal sun-moon-stars falling down -- which of course have not happenned yet even today - and you have to punt things TEMPORALLY off to a future thing

    which is NOT "the same judgement/all one judgement/coming/parousia" that is ALL ONE THING - that is

    "the THESE DAYS OF VENGEANCE" wherein ALL things are fulfilled

    Luk 21:31
    So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    Luk 21:32
    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled
    Luk 21:33
    Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


    I frankly see some things literal like 'not one stone left upon another' and 'Jerusalem surrounded with armies' --

    but what YOU punt off INTO ANOTHER TIME and call GLOBAL "ENDTIME"; I tend to see as FIGURATIVE but all part of the same judgement, see?

    I make no bones about seeing some of Olivet Discourse as literal and some as figurative -- and that "sun blacking out, moon going out, stars falling from heaven" etc as language relating to the passing of the Mosaic "age"

    anybody see book of Revelation as "some literal - some figurative'??

    So now I truly see why you divvy up Matthew into A and B - but what you call "global cosmic events" -- I see as figurative descriptions of the judgement of the old Mosaic system passing away
     
  15. L0U

    L0U Regular Member

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    I see the same "patterns" to prophecy and I know within myself (I don't know how I know it, it's just there.) that there are just somethings that we all are missing that await further revelation from the Holy Spirit.
    This causes me not to become hard set in my own understanding of eschatological timings.
    I do beleive certain things but I don't allow myself to say within myself 'this is Gods way'. God will reveal His way in His time.
    But until then:
    Satan still 'roams about seeking whom he may devour' and I bet he still even does it through the words of Scripture and our own desires, just like in Eden.
    We have a very powerful adversary who operates with cunning intelligence within our old nature. The 'axe needs to be laid to the root' continually to everything that is not Christ in us.
     
  16. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    Matthew 24:29 can refer to literal clouds blocking the literal light from the literal sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars", i.e. meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and will be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the first heaven, i.e. the sky/atmosphere. And "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal fallen-angelic "powers" that currently rule the world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

    Regarding "the Mosaic 'age'", note that the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a) and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

    Also, while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), note that he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

    Yes, but Revelation is (contrary to what is sometimes claimed) almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

    Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.
     
  17. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    B2 wrote,
    So there was no transition period, no overlap at all

    You must be kidding. Reread Hebrews. It is about sorting out the overlap.

    When Lk 21 says the events of the DofJ are the time punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written, it means the old covenants terms in Deut., like 32.

    What business is it of yours to take the normal meaning of the answers of Mt 24 and say they are not answers? He said the temple was coming down; that's it. The question should be: is there anything, any detail, in the material that can help distinguish which end he meant:
    end of Judaism
    end of old covenant
    end of the world (not til 24B)

    You're way overdue for an adjustment to the normal meaning of text.
     
  18. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    One thing we can take to the bank this morning for sure and deposit, ie, Matt.24:29 the whole siderial world shall collpase. A cataclysm like no other.

    Just ol' old Jack clearing valid deposits
     
  19. coraline

    coraline Active Member

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    I agree. I think many have strayed from the original question too, about what Jesus said about "this" (Jesus' contemporary) generation.

    Do you know that Scofield, (Scofield bible) actually changed God's words for the Greek meaning of "generation" to render it "this race?"

    How pathetic.

    Can't make a buck with the truth- so change it, no one will notice.

    Wrong!
     
  20. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    thanks, Coraline, I hadn't heard that exactly
     
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