This crippled my faith

[jenny1972]

The Bible is not accurate, we agree on this. How many errors are required for you to lose your faith? Surely if the Bible fell on its face every time you turned the page, and if every single claim it made was false, eventually you would lose patience. What is the number of contradictions that you will tolerate? You must have some magic number, even if you don't know what it is.

I found out that my magic number was 1.

my number is also 1
but 1 is not going to make me lose faith in God a million contradictions will not result in that , humans are imperfect and humans but the Bible together , so take it with a grain of salt and know that human beings put it together and maintained it there is inspiration with the pages and if you know God you will know it when you read it. but attempting to shove a circle into a square peg through apologetics isnt necessary if you just accept humanity for what it actually is what it has always been . Just accept the Bible for how it is if you want perfection you can go somewhere else for that .

i just go right to the source that is perfect i might not know everything but only the wisdom that God chooses to share with me , the Bible contains inspiration also but i dont consider it perfect or get angry with contradictions it is what it is after all its over 2000 years old has been translated and gone through many and i mean many different human hands to get to where it is today . God is above all religion of man i dont know if your belief in God is entirely dependent on religion or why losing faith in religion would relate to your faith in God they are not one and the same . If you have never had a relationship with God you can have that and it is 100% perfect if your looking for flawless perfection.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

N.V.--
You and oi-antz have covered a lot of ground in speaking of the LAW...there's much in those discussions which I hadn't the time to read, but I remember some points you seemed to be making. I believe you found the LAW unjust and faulty. You pointed to all the wickedness of the Israelites and perhaps even mankind before the flood.
I say that Satan was instrumental in the fall. Following this fall all mankind are sinful and if we do not seek God we carry Satan and his ideas in us and people deal with a sin-curse body and world. The level of degradation of mankind as you see them clearly portrayed in the O.T. is also a testimony of the huge level of change believing in God can produce in mankind. For there were always the good...yet never perfect...and evil men in the world.
Jesus says in Matthew 19:3-12:
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Point is, we do see a greater hardening back then than we did at time of this passage...yet Christ was put to death...death on a cross at this time!
I shall take a necessary break here and pick up later.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It appears that Zedekiah is indeed the son of Josiah according to the scriptures in the king James bible: But I am still wondering if that is related to the curse placed upon Jehoiakim and his seed, I am not sure(if the age of birth is in order, then Zedekiah would appear to be the son of Jehoiakim, still possibly making him the son of Josiah and Jehoiakim's brother according to the scriptures I quoted explaining these things). I am still trying to interpret it my self, knowing that there is no contradiction in the king James bible.

There are many things that I can accept as being neither contradiction nor scribal error. For example, many atheists cite the Bible's estimation of pi as being 3, claiming it is false. I simply view it as an approximation. Kent Hovind actually went on to provide a brilliant explanation (although he did curiously not show the calculations, despite typically doing so for other things) where he said that the circumference in question was referring to the inside - the smaller radius of the concentric circle would yield a smaller circumference.

Hovind also went on to show how the "horses and chariots" and the "baths" issues were not contradictions or scribal errors. His explanations were good. Also I have heard that Jehoiachin's age of when he became king (8 versus 18) can be explained by co-regency: at 8 years old he was appointed as the successor, and at age 18 he actually took the throne, so there is not necessarily a contradiction between the Kings and the Chronicles on that particular issue.

But there is still an irrefutable argument for a scribal error in the King James Bible:

2 Kings 8:26 says that Ahaziah was 22 years old when he became king, but 2 Chronicles 22:2 says he was 42 years old. This is a scribal error, and cannot be accounted for by co-regency because Ahaziah's father died at the age of 40 (2 Chronicles 21:16 through 2 Chronicles 22:2).

So Ahaziah would be older than his own father, Jehoram, if he was 42 when he began to reign. Even if we try to exploit the fact that "brother" and "son" can be interchangeable, Ahaziah's father/brother only reigned for 8 years so a co-regency timeline is nonsensical:

Ahaziah is Jehoram's older brother, despite being listed as his son, and is appointed as the successor of some other king;

12 years later, Jehoram becomes king instead of Ahaziah for no reason;

Jehoram dies, and is succeeded by his older brother who had been promised the throne a decade before Jehoram even began to reign.

Unfortunately, I have never heard an explanation for this from someone who believes in inerrancy.

Then of course there are the returning exiles from Bablyon listed in Ezra 2 and Nehemiah 7. This is a list of families, recording the number of people in each family. Ezra is written first, and Nehemiah is apparently 60 years later. You would expect either that each list is identical (because Nehemiah is reading from the same list) or else that both lists are different across the board (because Nehemiah's list is an update on the amount of people in each family). What actually happens is that about half of the entries are exactly the same, and the other half are off by random amounts. Some numbers go up, some go down, and it's not always just a tens place or hundreds place being off - the variation seems to be completely random.

Also no explanation from the inerrancy community.

Realization that the Bible contains scribal error was not exactly satisfying to me, but it was not the end of my faith. Regrettably, I compromised on this. But when I discovered this Zedekiah contradiction, it all fell apart.

Truthfully, the only interpretation That I am convinced about in that word I wrote you is the explanation of why Coniah was written that he was eight years old.

Well, again, I'm not worried about Jeconiah's age because there are many explanations.

Further more, the word below says "shall have none"(no seed) not "after him".
Jeremiah 36:30King James Version (KJV)
30 Therefore thus saith the Lord of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.


I am aware of what many call contradictions in the king James bible that God has made plain for me: I know well enough now that the only thing wrong is faithless men trying to prove God wrong. I am not moved by your question, I know the answer is in the scriptures some where, and if God reveals it to me then well, if not, I will move on still knowing the answer is there with out error and man's wisdom is foolishness with God.

I was not faithless and I was not trying to prove God wrong when these things came up. But I did ask for answers, receiving none.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Why do you suppose that your response to me here produces such an opposite view than that I attempted to draw in you?

I already explained that:

You are simply reading your own understanding of righteousness into these things. If it said, "Do no harm to others" or "Men and women are not equal, but are to be treated equally," then I would see your point.

A clan of cannibals advocating a "good diet" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as what you or I think of as a good diet, and this backwards, barbaric, inhumane society advocating "justice and righteousness" doesn't mean a lick to me because they regularly engaged in savagery.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The LAW you say is unjust applying barbaric forms of punishment seemingly unfitting for the crime and it did not produce a more perfect society. These unjust punishments might even suggest an unjust rather barbaric God you seem to say.
Women are not treated fairly in rape situations under the LAW I believe you said and I think you went on to enumerate many other crimes of the LAW.
The Israelites applied to their court system in seeking justice in many instances…remember the visit of Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses, and the establishment of that system? The LAW did not address each and every individual offense and remedy. The extreme punishments for some crimes, such as stoning, were to make the people aware of God’s view of such crimes/sins and what they deserved…yet these punishments are milder than what they deserve, they deserve hell…He does not punish as our sins deserve. We have the N.T. to spell out some answers about the LAW for us so I will resort to quoting that.

The Purpose of the LAW:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:19-21

Romans 5:19-20:
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more…

Romans 7:12-13:
12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Romans 11:32:
32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

***In other words this was God’s salvation plan all along. And if this sounds foolish, well, God tells us it is meant so...at least to those wise in this world:

I Corinthians 1:18-20:
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Again, He bound all men over…

 

[jenny1972]

I was not faithless and I was not trying to prove God wrong when these things came up. But I did ask for answers, receiving none.

how can you say that you received no answer to your questions to God ? you are confident in your criticisms about the Bible where do you think that confidence came from and why the strong desire to share this with other people ? or do you mean you looked for answers from people and recieved none? (isnt the lack of an answer an answer in itself?) its all apart of Gods perfect plan even if we dont understand why God would allow certain things to happen ...... maybe its a lesson to humanity that we cannot trust the things of this world and to put Him first above all things ? sometimes humans lose their way and need to be reminded of things trust in God alone and put nothing before Him but maybe we've kinda done that . But dont worry it will all work out - perfectly.

 

[oi_antz]

I already explained that:

As you say that I am reading my own view of righteousness into these things, and then go on to suggest that your view of righteousness differs from mine, how would you identify the logical explanation according to this algorithm:

a) My view of righteousness is different from yours, therefore your opinion is that my view of righteousness is flawed
b) We do not fully understand the other's view of righteousness, so there is misunderstanding. Therefore with sufficient communication it is possible we either would find

1) agreement
2) option (a) applies
3) Something else? (Please explain)​

c) Something else? (Please explain)

 

[ISTANDBYJESUS]

There are many things that I can accept as being neither contradiction nor scribal error. For example, many atheists cite the Bible's estimation of pi as being 3, claiming it is false. I simply view it as an approximation. Kent Hovind actually went on to provide a brilliant explanation (although he did curiously not show the calculations, despite typically doing so for other things) where he said that the circumference in question was referring to the inside - the smaller radius of the concentric circle would yield a smaller circumference.

Hovind also went on to show how the "horses and chariots" and the "baths" issues were not contradictions or scribal errors. His explanations were good. Also I have heard that Jehoiachin's age of when he became king (8 versus 18) can be explained by co-regency: at 8 years old he was appointed as the successor, and at age 18 he actually took the throne, so there is not necessarily a contradiction between the Kings and the Chronicles on that particular issue.

But there is still an irrefutable argument for a scribal error in the King James Bible:

2 Kings 8:26 says that Ahaziah was 22 years old when he became king, but 2 Chronicles 22:2 says he was 42 years old. This is a scribal error, and cannot be accounted for by co-regency because Ahaziah's father died at the age of 40 (2 Chronicles 21:16 through 2 Chronicles 22:2).

So Ahaziah would be older than his own father, Jehoram, if he was 42 when he began to reign. Even if we try to exploit the fact that "brother" and "son" can be interchangeable, Ahaziah's father/brother only reigned for 8 years so a co-regency timeline is nonsensical:

Ahaziah is Jehoram's older brother, despite being listed as his son, and is appointed as the successor of some other king;

12 years later, Jehoram becomes king instead of Ahaziah for no reason;

Jehoram dies, and is succeeded by his older brother who had been promised the throne a decade before Jehoram even began to reign.

Unfortunately, I have never heard an explanation for this from someone who believes in inerrancy.

Then of course there are the returning exiles from Bablyon listed in Ezra 2 and Nehemiah 7. This is a list of families, recording the number of people in each family. Ezra is written first, and Nehemiah is apparently 60 years later. You would expect either that each list is identical (because Nehemiah is reading from the same list) or else that both lists are different across the board (because Nehemiah's list is an update on the amount of people in each family). What actually happens is that about half of the entries are exactly the same, and the other half are off by random amounts. Some numbers go up, some go down, and it's not always just a tens place or hundreds place being off - the variation seems to be completely random.

Also no explanation from the inerrancy community.

Realization that the Bible contains scribal error was not exactly satisfying to me, but it was not the end of my faith. Regrettably, I compromised on this. But when I discovered this Zedekiah contradiction, it all fell apart.



Well, again, I'm not worried about Jeconiah's age because there are many explanations.



I was not faithless and I was not trying to prove God wrong when these things came up. But I did ask for answers, receiving none.

Titus 3:8-11King James Version (KJV)
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Scripture says to wait upon the Lord. Scripture isn't a science or math book; it's a book of faith. The unfolding of God's salvation plan alone tells us to wait for answers. See how the LAW changed...see how long it took for the Messiah to appear. I don't believe you really understood the nature of God when you left the faith. I pray you will return...short time or long...preferably short time b/c no one knows that Day.
If one sees an Apple pie in Mom's kitchen they do not deny it is an apple pie b/c one of the ingredients for pie isn't listed in the given recipe used. Taste and see!

 

[Open Heart]

Women are not treated fairly in rape situations under the LAW I believe you said and I think you went on to enumerate many other crimes of the LAW.

Actually, the "rape" the Torah is talking about is SEDUCTION of a virgin before she is betrothed and has no right to consent. It is what today we would call fornication. Call it a difference in cultures. Violent rape was considered a form of severe assault as well as a sex crime and was dealt with VERY harshly.

"From this the Talmud deduces that the fifty-shekel fine is merely a portion of his obligation; it is the portion he pays for the pleasure he took from his act. But this doesn’t compensate her for her pain, indignity and loss. The Talmud thus infers from this verse that in addition to the fine, the rapist is required to indemnify her for three forms of damage: the indignity she suffered, the pain she endured and the loss she incurred. In all, this amounts to a hefty fine.2

"In addition, the rapist is required to marry his victim, and is not permitted to divorce her without her consent. The Talmud explains that this obligation rests on the rapist, not the victim. She is under no obligation to marry him.

"Today it is hardly conceivable that a woman would choose to marry a man who had forced himself on her. In the not-so-distant past, however, women depended entirely on their husbands for protection and support. The rapist thus perpetrated a double crime against his victim: he violated her dignity and compromised her future, for with the stigma of rape upon her, it would now be exceedingly difficult for her to marry. The Torah is concerned not only with the pain she suffered in the past, but with her vulnerability in the future. Should she find herself without prospects for marriage, and should she want this man as her husband, the Torah requires him to marry her. In any case, whether the woman opted for this marriage or refused it, she was compensated for the damages caused by the rape."

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/1940448/jewish/Does-the-Torah-Punish-a-Rape-Victim.htm​

For those who are curious... A shekel is a unit of weight equal to about 11 grams, so 50 shekels is about 550 grams or 19.4 ounces. An ounce of silver is running about $20 per ounce, so 50 pounds would come to about $388. But that's down quite a bit from two years ago when 50 pounds was $420.98... prices fluctuate.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

my number is also 1
but 1 is not going to make me lose faith in God a million contradictions will not result in that ,

I do not think you understood my question.

humans are imperfect and humans but the Bible together , so take it with a grain of salt and know that human beings put it together and maintained it there is inspiration with the pages and if you know God you will know it when you read it.

Which is it, do I take it with a grain of salt or is there inspiration (from God)?

but attempting to shove a circle into a square peg through apologetics isnt necessary if you just accept humanity for what it actually is what it has always been . Just accept the Bible for how it is if you want perfection you can go somewhere else for that .

That's pretty much the worst answer you could give someone like me.

i just go right to the source that is perfect i might not know everything but only the wisdom that God chooses to share with me , the Bible contains inspiration also but i dont consider it perfect or get angry with contradictions it is what it is after all its over 2000 years old has been translated and gone through many and i mean many different human hands to get to where it is today . God is above all religion of man i dont know if your belief in God is entirely dependent on religion or why losing faith in religion would relate to your faith in God they are not one and the same . If you have never had a relationship with God you can have that and it is 100% perfect if your looking for flawless perfection.

Relationship with God is 100% perfect? So your magic number on that issue is 1?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

how can you say that you received no answer to your questions to God ?

Very well, I'll correct myself: the answers I've gotten are that the Bible contradicts itself, and I'm not OK with that.

you are confident in your criticisms about the Bible where do you think that confidence came from and why the strong desire to share this with other people ?

I am confident in my criticism because everyone here generally admits I'm right. The strong desire to share this with people comes from the fact that this is supposedly the word of God and I just want to know if anyone has made sense of it yet.

or do you mean you looked for answers from people and recieved none?

Correct.

(isnt the lack of an answer an answer in itself?)

So the answer is that the Bible contradicts itself. You've already given me this answer, and I told you it was the worst thing you could say to someone like me.

its all apart of Gods perfect plan even if we dont understand why God would allow certain things to happen ......

Ask yourself how that makes any sense. At all.

maybe its a lesson to humanity that we cannot trust the things of this world and to put Him first above all things ?

So you are saying the Bible is just another part of this world? How then can we trust its authority?

sometimes humans lose their way and need to be reminded of things trust in God alone and put nothing before Him but maybe we've kinda done that . But dont worry it will all work out - perfectly.

I won't hold my breath.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

As you say that I am reading my own view of righteousness into these things, and then go on to suggest that your view of righteousness differs from mine, how would you identify the logical explanation according to this algorithm:

a) My view of righteousness is different from yours, therefore your opinion is that my view of righteousness is flawed
b) We do not fully understand the other's view of righteousness, so there is misunderstanding. Therefore with sufficient communication it is possible we either would find

1) agreement
2) option (a) applies
3) Something else? (Please explain)​

c) Something else? (Please explain)

a) is not correct. We both agree (generally) on morality (or righteousness) - we have clarified our misunderstanding about "slavery can be a moral solution to a problem" and "indentured servitude is not slavery." We both agree on what a righteous and just society looks like... it's just that in this situation, a clan of cannibals is writing about the importance of a "good diet," and I'm trying to tell you that they don't mean what you think they mean, even though it is the case that you and I agree on what a good diet is.
b) is also not correct, for the same reason as a).
c) is also not correct.

The problem is where you say:

"As you say that I am reading my own view of righteousness into these things, and then go on to suggest that your view of righteousness differs from mine..."

I did not intend to suggest this, nor do I know where I did. I simply said that the ancient Jews had a different idea of righteousness than the both of us. It is my assumption that you not only do not regularly engage in rape and slavedriving, but that you also find such practices despicable.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Actually, the "rape" the Torah is talking about is SEDUCTION of a virgin before she is betrothed and has no right to consent. It is what today we would call fornication. Call it a difference in cultures. Violent rape was considered a form of severe assault as well as a sex crime and was dealt with VERY harshly.

The NIV doesn't seem to agree with you:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29New International Version - UK (NIVUK)
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

And the KJV says this:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29King James Version (KJV)
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

"From this the Talmud deduces that the fifty-shekel fine is merely a portion of his obligation; it is the portion he pays for the pleasure he took from his act. But this doesn’t compensate her for her pain, indignity and loss. The Talmud thus infers from this verse that in addition to the fine, the rapist is required to indemnify her for three forms of damage: the indignity she suffered, the pain she endured and the loss she incurred. In all, this amounts to a hefty fine.2

"In addition, the rapist is required to marry his victim, and is not permitted to divorce her without her consent. The Talmud explains that this obligation rests on the rapist, not the victim. She is under no obligation to marry him.

"Today it is hardly conceivable that a woman would choose to marry a man who had forced himself on her. In the not-so-distant past, however, women depended entirely on their husbands for protection and support. The rapist thus perpetrated a double crime against his victim: he violated her dignity and compromised her future, for with the stigma of rape upon her, it would now be exceedingly difficult for her to marry. The Torah is concerned not only with the pain she suffered in the past, but with her vulnerability in the future. Should she find herself without prospects for marriage, and should she want this man as her husband, the Torah requires him to marry her. In any case, whether the woman opted for this marriage or refused it, she was compensated for the damages caused by the rape."

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/1940448/jewish/Does-the-Torah-Punish-a-Rape-Victim.htm​

I agree with all of this. Your main point is that the rape victim was not forced to marry her attacker, but that it was in the rape victim's best interests. Why? Because the society was cruel and barbaric, and their value of women was quite low.

For those who are curious... A shekel is a unit of weight equal to about 11 grams, so 50 shekels is about 550 grams or 19.4 ounces. An ounce of silver is running about $20 per ounce, so 50 pounds would come to about $388. But that's down quite a bit from two years ago when 50 pounds was $420.98... prices fluctuate.

The going rate for a woman's virginity?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

N.V.--
You and oi-antz have covered a lot of ground in speaking of the LAW...there's much in those discussions which I hadn't the time to read, but I remember some points you seemed to be making. I believe you found the LAW unjust and faulty. You pointed to all the wickedness of the Israelites and perhaps even mankind before the flood.
I say that Satan was instrumental in the fall. Following this fall all mankind are sinful and if we do not seek God we carry Satan and his ideas in us and people deal with a sin-curse body and world. The level of degradation of mankind as you see them clearly portrayed in the O.T. is also a testimony of the huge level of change believing in God can produce in mankind. For there were always the good...yet never perfect...and evil men in the world.
Jesus says in Matthew 19:3-12:
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Point is, we do see a greater hardening back then than we did at time of this passage...yet Christ was put to death...death on a cross at this time!
I shall take a necessary break here and pick up later.

So you are saying that inasmuch as God was reluctant to give the Jews laws regarding divorce, but did so because they wanted it, he also reluctantly gave laws which permitted slavery and which forced a rapist to marry his victim because they wanted those laws? Such an argument could perhaps successfully separate God from these atrocities, but the failure of this argument is that it does nothing to address all of God's commandments of genocide in Joshua.

Although, of course, while Jesus may have disparaged divorce, he never actually said anything to chastise rape or slavery.

The LAW you say is unjust applying barbaric forms of punishment seemingly unfitting for the crime and it did not produce a more perfect society. These unjust punishments might even suggest an unjust rather barbaric God you seem to say.

I seem to say that? I apologize if I've been straddling the fence on this. To be clear, yes, I find it to be quite apparent that God directly ordered genocide on multiple occasions, personally participated in countless murders, institutionalized rape and chattel slavery, and encouraged racism.

Women are not treated fairly in rape situations under the LAW I believe you said and I think you went on to enumerate many other crimes of the LAW.

Correct.

The Israelites applied to their court system in seeking justice in many instances…remember the visit of Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses, and the establishment of that system? The LAW did not address each and every individual offense and remedy. The extreme punishments for some crimes, such as stoning, were to make the people aware of God’s view of such crimes/sins and what they deserved…yet these punishments are milder than what they deserve, they deserve hell…He does not punish as our sins deserve. We have the N.T. to spell out some answers about the LAW for us so I will resort to quoting that.

I understand the Bible does not address every possible crime. I wouldn't claim to know the Bible's stance on internet laws, such as the DMCA. But it is quite clear in its stance on rape, slavery, genocide, and racism.

The Purpose of the LAW:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:19-21

Romans 5:19-20:
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more…

Romans 7:12-13:
12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Romans 11:32:
32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

***In other words this was God’s salvation plan all along. And if this sounds foolish, well, God tells us it is meant so...at least to those wise in this world:

I Corinthians 1:18-20:
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Again, He bound all men over…

I do not know what any of this has to do with explaining away the rape/slavery laws or the commandments to perpetrate genocide.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Titus 3:8-11King James Version (KJV)
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

I will admit that this passage is amazingly applicable.

But you must also admit that you cannot both claim that the Bible is inerrant, and then hide behind this when you are shown it is not. I don't think you'd be using this escape hatch if there was a real answer to the problem. Am I to accept this citation of yours as an admission that you no longer hold to inerrancy?

Also there's this:

1 Peter 3:15King James Version (KJV)
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Scripture says to wait upon the Lord. Scripture isn't a science or math book; it's a book of faith. The unfolding of God's salvation plan alone tells us to wait for answers. See how the LAW changed...see how long it took for the Messiah to appear. I don't believe you really understood the nature of God when you left the faith. I pray you will return...short time or long...preferably short time b/c no one knows that Day.
If one sees an Apple pie in Mom's kitchen they do not deny it is an apple pie b/c one of the ingredients for pie isn't listed in the given recipe used. Taste and see!

We are on page 12, post #237, and there has been quite a lot of nothing going on. Christians answering me by dancing around the issue, pointing toward Jesus and away from my question, telling me I need to be patient, or perhaps outright admitting that the Bible has errors. But not resolving the actual issue at hand.

Christians often criticize science for how it is always changing its mind on things as it progresses and gains new information. But you people have had over 2000 years to get your story straight on a book that isn't even changing and yet we are still nowhere near the end of that road.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

N.V. said:
So the answer is that the Bible contradicts itself. You've already given me this answer, and I told you it was the worst thing you could say to someone like me.

I'll answer to the contrary...Scripture does not contradict itself. There may be apparent contradictions upon first glance. But if you read on you will find the passages which bring out the true meaning of the troublesome passage/s. I remember when I first read I felt there were a few contradictory or nonsensical passages, but that's all I remember...could you cite some contradictions which perhaps I could clear up? Just as an example of how this works. I know in the past I have corrected some Christian posts...not on this site...and brought clarity. Remember that faith is a gift of God, not of works (human intellect can be considered works in that it extends from yourself or at least you may think so), it is a gift of God. I truly believe the Bible is written in such a way that faith (set in action by the Holy Spirit through the Message) is necessary for understanding (by design of course). Intellectuals such as yourself do seem to have trouble at first. I urge you to not give up though.
The difference between our Bible reading technique is that I read with faith...I am not sure that you truly had faith or what. I didn't doubt that I'd find answers to my Scriptural questions...but I was a real nervous wreck over hell and the strangeness of what was going on in my life...at the point I began to read it was pretty much a feeling of "do or die"....I KNEW God was real beyond a doubt and that I was heading down the wrong path...I knew Hell was real too! So, I take no credit in my faith, it was a gift...though it didn't feel like it then! Everyone's "born again" experience is unique in many aspects. I sense you could still find faith. Quit making God PROVE Himself to you, quite asking for help on YOUR terms. Scripture is miraculous and how can you miss that unless you are judging the Scripture which is in reality judging God? This is a shocking and heinous sin...I try to hold back, knowing you are acting in ignorance. Best tread carefully...isn't that the scientific way...best and truest solutions are not discovered via hasty decision making.
Humble yourself before the Mighty God and He will lift you up. --James 4:10

 

[Nihilist Virus]

N.V. said:
So the answer is that the Bible contradicts itself. You've already given me this answer, and I told you it was the worst thing you could say to someone like me.

I'll answer to the contrary...Scripture does not contradict itself. There may be apparent contradictions upon first glance. But if you read on you will find the passages which bring out the true meaning of the troublesome passage/s. I remember when I first read I felt there were a few contradictory or nonsensical passages, but that's all I remember...could you cite some contradictions which perhaps I could clear up?

Have you not read the OP?

Just as an example of how this works. I know in the past I have corrected some Christian posts...not on this site...and brought clarity. Remember that faith is a gift of God, not of works (human intellect can be considered works in that it extends from yourself or at least you may think so), it is a gift of God. I truly believe the Bible is written in such a way that faith (set in action by the Holy Spirit through the Message) is necessary for understanding (by design of course). Intellectuals such as yourself do seem to have trouble at first. I urge you to not give up though.

So you are saying that the Bible is true, but that won't be apparent unless you already believe it?

The difference between our Bible reading technique is that I read with faith...I am not sure that you truly had faith or what. I didn't doubt that I'd find answers to my Scriptural questions...but I was a real nervous wreck over hell and the strangeness of what was going on in my life...at the point I began to read it was pretty much a feeling of "do or die"....I KNEW God was real beyond a doubt and that I was heading down the wrong path...I knew Hell was real too!

How did you know this?

So, I take no credit in my faith, it was a gift...though it didn't feel like it then! Everyone's "born again" experience is unique in many aspects. I sense you could still find faith. Quit making God PROVE Himself to you, quite asking for help on YOUR terms.

But your faith was obviously delivered to you on your terms, or else you wouldn't have ever believed.

Scripture is miraculous and how can you miss that unless you are judging the Scripture which is in reality judging God? This is a shocking and heinous sin...I try to hold back, knowing you are acting in ignorance.

But aren't you judging God? If you say he is holy, you are judging him and saying he is worthy of your worship.

Best tread carefully...isn't that the scientific way...best and truest solutions are not discovered via hasty decision making.
Humble yourself before the Mighty God and He will lift you up. --James 4:10

Tread carefully? Trust me, if God was real, he'd have struck me dead long ago.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

So you are saying that inasmuch as God was reluctant to give the Jews laws regarding divorce, but did so because they wanted it, he also reluctantly gave laws which permitted slavery and which forced a rapist to marry his victim because they wanted those laws? Such an argument could perhaps successfully separate God from these atrocities, but the failure of this argument is that it does nothing to address all of God's commandments of genocide in Joshua.
Although, of course, while Jesus may have disparaged divorce, he never actually said anything to chastise rape or slavery.
I seem to say that? I apologize if I've been straddling the fence on this. To be clear, yes, I find it to be quite apparent that

God directly ordered genocide on multiple occasions, personally participated in countless murders, institutionalized rape and chattel slavery, and encouraged racism.

So, you've fine-tooth combed Scripture and came up short again...I will reply, but let me preface my answer that I am only being patient with you so don't mistake it for normal candid exchange. You are so apparent...you love to show yourself arrogantly intellectual and frown down on us silly Christians without a brain...that you love to hear yourself ridicule others (and God) is so alarmingly apparent! I am not naive.
So you fine-tooth combed the Bible and didn't see that God was ridding the world of evil through those battles? Horrible atrocities. God institutionalized rape??? You mean because you didn't agree with the remedy...you aren't mature enough to handle the answer to that one. Slavery, racism...did you check out the N.T. on that score? Hardly. God called the Israelites a stiff-necked people...as no-doubt all people are before they understand God and He dealt with them accordingly...Satan was loose before Christ, he is now held back by Christ.
God IS almighty, He could just hand-select the believers and destroy everyone else without this game of life...He instead gave everyone a testing field...earth...and a huge aid...Jesus who crushed Satan on the cross...and He gave us Scripture as a guide and evidence of Himself. We do not deserve these gifts.
God is patient and kind with us, not wanting anyone to perish, but for all to repent and have eternal life. Look at the huge value God places on man...He could have put Adam and Eve in hell immediately, but rather devised this plan...He could have tossed Satan in hell immediately and not troubled Himself with any of this or perhaps invent tons of other optional salvation plans. Since God is so powerful and at the same time so ultimately loving I choose to believe He designed the plan best for us.