This church is driving a wedge between me and my family...

[jintercession]

Hi everyone who decides to read this!!
Lucky you, you're in for a treat...

The church I grew up in (Baptist/Pentecostal) started going woke and seeker sensitive and it turned out to be worse than I thought... Perhaps it was gradually creeping in and I just didn't realize it. Upon participating in lifegroups as well, I was growing dissatisfied with the spiritual food I was receiving, it definitely seemed like it was missing something and there was something wishy-washy, feel good and superficial about our discussions. The rest of my family still go there.

I have a Christian conservative group chat for those who uphold Biblical truth and one of my friends from this group chat, Jane (placeholder name) had a birthday party which I attended. At this party I was astonished to meet many other likeminded young Christian conservatives. (We are like needles in a haystack amongst the progressive and apostate majority) Naturally, I asked where she knew all these people from and apparently most of them were from her church and that the congregants of her church would agree with what was said in our group chat, so Jane invited me to her church. Among these friends was a handsome and extremely talented young man who I found a real rapport with. Let's call him Alex and leave him for a moment.

So to begin with, Jane's church was a Reformed Baptist church and very different to the churches I'd grown up in my whole life (in spite of the Baptist title). I thought my family and I were the most conservative Christians in town but apparently not. This church were staunchly Calvinist and frequently reference Calvin and the Westminister Confession, whereas I was raised Arminian and my whole family are Arminian. Honestly, theology was never really discussed at home or at church so I am now intensly wrestling with this by reading books on soteriology, God's divine providence and I will not call myself a Calvinist until I read at leas one of Calvin's works and am convinced that his hermeneutical approach is Biblical. My main issue with Calvinism is the implied ascribement of authorship of sin to God which fundamentally conflicts with his character. Like I said though, I need to read Calvin and maybe some Spurgeon and Sproul to see what he's going on about and then tackle those tough verses like Romans 9.

Jane's church are not necessarily cessasionalist per se but disagree with neo-apostolic gifts on the premise that Paul was the last apostle and every prophecy is already revealed in the Bible. Elders and congregants are very skeptical of God speaking in dreams and healing miracles nowadays. Instead, an academic, intellectual, expositional faith and apologetics is prioritized and emphasized as not to fall into heretical beliefs. Several congregants favourite pastime seems to be criticizing pentecostal churches.

The church is strictly complementarian based on 2nd Timothy to the point of the pastor declaring that female pastors will all go to hell if they don't repent and stop preaching. I think this is the point that my family take most issue with viewing it as misogynist and unbiblical. The pastor explained that the role differences are clear in Genesis and that the judges, leaders and prophetesses like Deborah, Esther, Priscilla, Anna, Junia etc. were only doing it privately in their home or something (?) My family is concerned I am being brainwashed by the church into abuse and meanwhile Jane is concerned that I am seeing the Bible through a biased lense of feminism when in actual fact I believe feminism is one of the leading factors of the downfall of Western civilisation.

Remember Alex, the handsome and impeccably talented young man I mentioned before who attends this church? Well, after a couple months of seeing eachother at church, he asked if I would like to be his girlfriend after one of the weekly lifegroup meetings and of course I said yes!! Little did I know that the lifegroup leader and one of the prominent church elders (Let's call him Wayne) has some very strong opinions, one of those being an anti-dating stance. After church and the night before the lunch date in the city with Alex, I went to a cafe with some of the congregants and Wayne told me "It's not too late to cancel the date!" I soon learned that Wayne was not alone in this stance and that several other congregants subscribed tightly to this view and have tried to confront me about this particular issue repeatedly. Jane even told me that "Dating is enjoying the benefits of marriage without the covenant." Jane suggested we 'Put brakes on the relationship' and instead, Alex and I are only to see eachother at church events and never individually (even in a public space) until we are basically engaged and about to get married. Wayne doesn't even want us sitting together or talking to eachother too much at church. (SO HOW DO WE GET TO KNOW EACHOTHER? HELLO??) I posed the question of how this is Biblical and all the responses I got were about how this is a safeguard from temptation and lust. Personally I think it is foolish to marry someone you barely know but Wayne seems totally enamored with the story of Ruth and Boaz as well as Martin Luther who apparently got engaged and married on the same day and didn't even feel any affection for the first five years! I think this is mostly a fear-based reaction to the ungodly dating culture which is so prevalent in society today.

In conclusion, while this church has many merits and is the only church I have found in my area to preach with such conviction and boldness to speak out against hot topics such as abortion, transgenderism, homosexuality and the congregants are more well versed in theology than the average Christian, I have some serious reservations. Spiritual abuse followed up later by traumatic government, big tech, big pharma overreach over the past couple of years has left me very disillusioned with a lot of things and people I thought that I could trust and I know that I'm not alone. If the things this church are espousing are true and as Biblical as humanly possible, then I am willing to accept them even if some things are antithetical to what is familiar to me. This is NOT deconstruction, rather REconstruction which I am undergoing. I must reconsolidate my understanding of the Bible. It could be that this church is borderline cultish and ironically several congregants are ex-cult members OR perhaps my family, although well intentioned have been wrong the whole time. Please note that my family are fine with me attending this church and in fact have been kindly driving me there and home as I'm still just learning to drive. My folks would also give Alex a lift to the bus stop but it seems the church elders have given him a talkfest in his ears about the threat of my family since he has recently been purposely declining our lifts and "Staying longer for fellowship with the other young men". I think it was because my parents tried to speak to him about the complementarianism and dating issue probably and challenge the church stance. Curiously he came over to my house with my family to teach me something recently and we thought he would stay for dinner but he left just before dinner when my mother had kindly cooked him a meal as he was "Trying to have an earlier sleep schedule." I've noticed a change in his personality and he sounds more and more like a carbon copy of the other men at church: stoic and argumentative. He calls it being 'sobered' but in actual fact, I think the poor fellow is very easily manipulated and reading between the lines doesn't come naturally to him. I'll be honest, I have struggled with that too. You see, we are both socially like the blind leading the blind thanks to this double edged sword called autism. Usually what happens, like in a video game, you max out on talent but have 0 social skills but for me I have maybe 1 in socials skills and 0 in talent it seems but hey that's just another issue I'm dealing with to add to the pile, yay.

Nonetheless, I am thankful that God is providing me with a necessity to buckle down and conscientiously study to show myself approved.

Please pray for me also that this will not drive a wedge between my family and I during this time of intense searching

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hi everyone who decides to read this!!
Lucky you, you're in for a treat...

The church I grew up in (Baptist/Pentecostal) started going woke and seeker sensitive and it turned out to be worse than I thought... Perhaps it was gradually creeping in and I just didn't realize it. Upon participating in lifegroups as well, I was growing dissatisfied with the spiritual food I was receiving, it definitely seemed like it was missing something and there was something wishy-washy, feel good and superficial about our discussions. The rest of my family still go there.

I have a Christian conservative group chat for those who uphold Biblical truth and one of my friends from this group chat, Jane (placeholder name) had a birthday party which I attended. At this party I was astonished to meet many other likeminded young Christian conservatives. (We are like needles in a haystack amongst the progressive and apostate majority) Naturally, I asked where she knew all these people from and apparently most of them were from her church and that the congregants of her church would agree with what was said in our group chat, so Jane invited me to her church. Among these friends was a handsome and extremely talented young man who I found a real rapport with. Let's call him Alex and leave him for a moment.

So to begin with, Jane's church was a Reformed Baptist church and very different to the churches I'd grown up in my whole life (in spite of the Baptist title). I thought my family and I were the most conservative Christians in town but apparently not. This church were staunchly Calvinist and frequently reference Calvin and the Westminister Confession, whereas I was raised Arminian and my whole family are Arminian. Honestly, theology was never really discussed at home or at church so I am now intensly wrestling with this by reading books on soteriology, God's divine providence and I will not call myself a Calvinist until I read at leas one of Calvin's works and am convinced that his hermeneutical approach is Biblical. My main issue with Calvinism is the implied ascribement of authorship of sin to God which fundamentally conflicts with his character. Like I said though, I need to read Calvin and maybe some Spurgeon and Sproul to see what he's going on about and then tackle those tough verses like Romans 9.

Jane's church are not necessarily cessasionalist per se but disagree with neo-apostolic gifts on the premise that Paul was the last apostle and every prophecy is already revealed in the Bible. Elders and congregants are very skeptical of God speaking in dreams and healing miracles nowadays. Instead, an academic, intellectual, expositional faith and apologetics is prioritized and emphasized as not to fall into heretical beliefs. Several congregants favourite pastime seems to be criticizing pentecostal churches.

The church is strictly complementarian based on 2nd Timothy to the point of the pastor declaring that female pastors will all go to hell if they don't repent and stop preaching. I think this is the point that my family take most issue with viewing it as misogynist and unbiblical. The pastor explained that the role differences are clear in Genesis and that the judges, leaders and prophetesses like Deborah, Esther, Priscilla, Anna, Junia etc. were only doing it privately in their home or something (?) My family is concerned I am being brainwashed by the church into abuse and meanwhile Jane is concerned that I am seeing the Bible through a biased lense of feminism when in actual fact I believe feminism is one of the leading factors of the downfall of Western civilisation.

Remember Alex, the handsome and impeccably talented young man I mentioned before who attends this church? Well, after a couple months of seeing eachother at church, he asked if I would like to be his girlfriend after one of the weekly lifegroup meetings and of course I said yes!! Little did I know that the lifegroup leader and one of the prominent church elders (Let's call him Wayne) has some very strong opinions, one of those being an anti-dating stance. After church and the night before the lunch date in the city with Alex, I went to a cafe with some of the congregants and Wayne told me "It's not too late to cancel the date!" I soon learned that Wayne was not alone in this stance and that several other congregants subscribed tightly to this view and have tried to confront me about this particular issue repeatedly. Jane even told me that "Dating is enjoying the benefits of marriage without the covenant." Jane suggested we 'Put brakes on the relationship' and instead, Alex and I are only to see eachother at church events and never individually (even in a public space) until we are basically engaged and about to get married. Wayne doesn't even want us sitting together or talking to eachother too much at church. (SO HOW DO WE GET TO KNOW EACHOTHER? HELLO??) I posed the question of how this is Biblical and all the responses I got were about how this is a safeguard from temptation and lust. Personally I think it is foolish to marry someone you barely know but Wayne seems totally enamored with the story of Ruth and Boaz as well as Martin Luther who apparently got engaged and married on the same day and didn't even feel any affection for the first five years! I think this is mostly a fear-based reaction to the ungodly dating culture which is so prevalent in society today.

In conclusion, while this church has many merits and is the only church I have found in my area to preach with such conviction and boldness to speak out against hot topics such as abortion, transgenderism, homosexuality and the congregants are more well versed in theology than the average Christian, I have some serious reservations. Spiritual abuse followed up later by traumatic government, big tech, big pharma overreach over the past couple of years has left me very disillusioned with a lot of things and people I thought that I could trust and I know that I'm not alone. If the things this church are espousing are true and as Biblical as humanly possible, then I am willing to accept them even if some things are antithetical to what is familiar to me. This is NOT deconstruction, rather REconstruction which I am undergoing. I must reconsolidate my understanding of the Bible. It could be that this church is borderline cultish and ironically several congregants are ex-cult members OR perhaps my family, although well intentioned have been wrong the whole time. Please note that my family are fine with me attending this church and in fact have been kindly driving me there and home as I'm still just learning to drive. My folks would also give Alex a lift to the bus stop but it seems the church elders have given him a talkfest in his ears about the threat of my family since he has recently been purposely declining our lifts and "Staying longer for fellowship with the other young men". I think it was because my parents tried to speak to him about the complementarianism and dating issue probably and challenge the church stance. Curiously he came over to my house with my family to teach me something recently and we thought he would stay for dinner but he left just before dinner when my mother had kindly cooked him a meal as he was "Trying to have an earlier sleep schedule." I've noticed a change in his personality and he sounds more and more like a carbon copy of the other men at church: stoic and argumentative. He calls it being 'sobered' but in actual fact, I think the poor fellow is very easily manipulated and reading between the lines doesn't come naturally to him. I'll be honest, I have struggled with that too. You see, we are both socially like the blind leading the blind thanks to this double edged sword called autism. Usually what happens, like in a video game, you max out on talent but have 0 social skills but for me I have maybe 1 in socials skills and 0 in talent it seems but hey that's just another issue I'm dealing with to add to the pile, yay.

Nonetheless, I am thankful that God is providing me with a necessity to buckle down and conscientiously study to show myself approved.

Please pray for me also that this will not drive a wedge between my family and I during this time of intense searching

The question really boils down to ... what do you want to see come out of all of this? And why does it matter what a bunch of strangers on a public forum think about your situation?

 

[BobRyan]

Hi everyone who decides to read this!!
Lucky you, you're in for a treat...

The church I grew up in (Baptist/Pentecostal) started going woke

ok that's a problem right there.

The Christian rule of life is not "woke" it is "Love your neighbor as yourself and leave politics out of it".

I have a Christian conservative group chat for those who uphold Biblical truth

Good for you. We are called to be salt and light in the world no matter that Satan blinds the eyes of mankind all around us.

and one of my friends from this group chat, Jane (placeholder name) had a birthday party which I attended. At this party I was astonished to meet many other likeminded young Christian conservatives. (We are like needles in a haystack amongst the progressive and apostate majority) Naturally, I asked where she knew all these people from and apparently most of them were from her church and that the congregants of her church would agree with what was said in our group chat, so Jane invited me to her church.

Ok so far so good.

, Jane's church was a Reformed Baptist church and very different to the churches I'd grown up in my whole life (in spite of the Baptist title). I thought my family and I were the most conservative Christians in town but apparently not. This church were staunchly Calvinist and frequently reference Calvin and the Westminister Confession, whereas I was raised Arminian and my whole family are Arminian. Honestly, theology was never really discussed at home or at church so I am now intensly wrestling with this by reading books on soteriology, God's divine providence and I will not call myself a Calvinist until I read at leas one of Calvin's works and am convinced that his hermeneutical approach is Biblical. My main issue with Calvinism is the implied ascribement of authorship of sin to God which fundamentally conflicts with his character.

Same with me - and I have studied it a lot as well as discussing this point by the hours with Calvinists.

in John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" --- that is not supposed to happen in 5 point Calvinism. If God sovereignly chooses you as "His own" you don't have the option of "nope. Not going to happen ".

In Is 5:4 "What MORE was there to do than that which I have already done? WHY then when I expected good fruit did my garden produce bad fruit?"

Calvinism has no good way to explain why God is asking a question that every Calvinist knows the answer to ... namely "you forgot to mind-zap them the way you do when you sovereignly expect something good from a human".

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" and yet in Matt 7 it is only "The FEW" that go to heaven - not the MANY.

Jane's church are not necessarily cessasionalist per se but disagree with neo-apostolic gifts on the premise that Paul was the last apostle and every prophecy is already revealed in the Bible.

Paul is not the last Apostle to die -- John is. He was imprisoned in the 90's and then when released he returned to Ephesus and wrote the Gospel of John.

Even so - no Bible text in OT or NT said "only Apostles have spiritual gifts" and in 1 Cor 14 Paul says all of the people in Corinth were having revelations from God.

Elders and congregants are very skeptical of God speaking in dreams and healing miracles nowadays. Instead, an academic, intellectual, expositional faith and apologetics is prioritized and emphasized as not to fall into heretical beliefs.

So I agree with them on this point above - not because God is not in the business of doing that - but because almost all of the popular forms of it do not fit the Bible model. Sola scriptura testing for everything - that is what the Bible teaches.

the pastor declaring that female pastors will all go to hell if they don't repent and stop preaching. I think this is the point that my family take most issue with viewing it as misogynist and unbiblical. The pastor explained that the role differences are clear in Genesis and that the judges, leaders and prophetesses like Deborah, Esther, Priscilla, Anna, Junia etc. were only doing it privately in their home or something (?)

People like Deborah were "judges in Israel".
No NT text says "Women can teach a man unless he comes to their house". The NT texts on that point relate to a woman taking authority from her husband and it does not give a man men authority over every man's wife simply because she is a woman.

Having said that I am very comfortable having men pastors - but I prefer to have sound Bible reasons before tossing a woman under the bus based on gender alone.

My family is concerned I am being brainwashed by the church into abuse and meanwhile Jane is concerned that I am seeing the Bible through a biased lense of feminism when in actual fact I believe feminism is one of the leading factors of the downfall of Western civilisation.

I agree with you -- both sides in that are somewhat in error .

Remember Alex, the handsome and impeccably talented young man I mentioned before who attends this church? Well, after a couple months of seeing eachother at church, he asked if I would like to be his girlfriend after one of the weekly lifegroup meetings and of course I said yes!! Little did I know that the lifegroup leader and one of the prominent church elders (Let's call him Wayne) has some very strong opinions, one of those being an anti-dating stance.

When two people are of the age to get married they need to be careful about dating so it is always a blessing to both and there are no regrets. The entire time you are dating ask yourself this question - if tomorrow we happen to break up - and then the next week I find the love of my life and marry him - would have I have any regrets about this current relationship?

If the answer is "no! In fact I would praise God for the blessings I am receiving in this relationship - then you are probably ok".

 

[Rescued One]

Hi everyone who decides to read this!!
Lucky you, you're in for a treat...

The church I grew up in (Baptist/Pentecostal) started going woke and seeker sensitive and it turned out to be worse than I thought... Perhaps it was gradually creeping in and I just didn't realize it. Upon participating in lifegroups as well, I was growing dissatisfied with the spiritual food I was receiving, it definitely seemed like it was missing something and there was something wishy-washy, feel good and superficial about our discussions. The rest of my family still go there.

I have a Christian conservative group chat for those who uphold Biblical truth and one of my friends from this group chat, Jane (placeholder name) had a birthday party which I attended. At this party I was astonished to meet many other likeminded young Christian conservatives. (We are like needles in a haystack amongst the progressive and apostate majority) Naturally, I asked where she knew all these people from and apparently most of them were from her church and that the congregants of her church would agree with what was said in our group chat, so Jane invited me to her church. Among these friends was a handsome and extremely talented young man who I found a real rapport with. Let's call him Alex and leave him for a moment.

So to begin with, Jane's church was a Reformed Baptist church and very different to the churches I'd grown up in my whole life (in spite of the Baptist title). I thought my family and I were the most conservative Christians in town but apparently not. This church were staunchly Calvinist and frequently reference Calvin and the Westminister Confession, whereas I was raised Arminian and my whole family are Arminian. Honestly, theology was never really discussed at home or at church so I am now intensly wrestling with this by reading books on soteriology, God's divine providence and I will not call myself a Calvinist until I read at leas one of Calvin's works and am convinced that his hermeneutical approach is Biblical. My main issue with Calvinism is the implied ascribement of authorship of sin to God which fundamentally conflicts with his character. Like I said though, I need to read Calvin and maybe some Spurgeon and Sproul to see what he's going on about and then tackle those tough verses like Romans 9.

Jane's church are not necessarily cessasionalist per se but disagree with neo-apostolic gifts on the premise that Paul was the last apostle and every prophecy is already revealed in the Bible. Elders and congregants are very skeptical of God speaking in dreams and healing miracles nowadays. Instead, an academic, intellectual, expositional faith and apologetics is prioritized and emphasized as not to fall into heretical beliefs. Several congregants favourite pastime seems to be criticizing pentecostal churches.

The church is strictly complementarian based on 2nd Timothy to the point of the pastor declaring that female pastors will all go to hell if they don't repent and stop preaching. I think this is the point that my family take most issue with viewing it as misogynist and unbiblical. The pastor explained that the role differences are clear in Genesis and that the judges, leaders and prophetesses like Deborah, Esther, Priscilla, Anna, Junia etc. were only doing it privately in their home or something (?) My family is concerned I am being brainwashed by the church into abuse and meanwhile Jane is concerned that I am seeing the Bible through a biased lense of feminism when in actual fact I believe feminism is one of the leading factors of the downfall of Western civilisation.

Remember Alex, the handsome and impeccably talented young man I mentioned before who attends this church? Well, after a couple months of seeing eachother at church, he asked if I would like to be his girlfriend after one of the weekly lifegroup meetings and of course I said yes!! Little did I know that the lifegroup leader and one of the prominent church elders (Let's call him Wayne) has some very strong opinions, one of those being an anti-dating stance. After church and the night before the lunch date in the city with Alex, I went to a cafe with some of the congregants and Wayne told me "It's not too late to cancel the date!" I soon learned that Wayne was not alone in this stance and that several other congregants subscribed tightly to this view and have tried to confront me about this particular issue repeatedly. Jane even told me that "Dating is enjoying the benefits of marriage without the covenant." Jane suggested we 'Put brakes on the relationship' and instead, Alex and I are only to see eachother at church events and never individually (even in a public space) until we are basically engaged and about to get married. Wayne doesn't even want us sitting together or talking to eachother too much at church. (SO HOW DO WE GET TO KNOW EACHOTHER? HELLO??) I posed the question of how this is Biblical and all the responses I got were about how this is a safeguard from temptation and lust. Personally I think it is foolish to marry someone you barely know but Wayne seems totally enamored with the story of Ruth and Boaz as well as Martin Luther who apparently got engaged and married on the same day and didn't even feel any affection for the first five years! I think this is mostly a fear-based reaction to the ungodly dating culture which is so prevalent in society today.

In conclusion, while this church has many merits and is the only church I have found in my area to preach with such conviction and boldness to speak out against hot topics such as abortion, transgenderism, homosexuality and the congregants are more well versed in theology than the average Christian, I have some serious reservations. Spiritual abuse followed up later by traumatic government, big tech, big pharma overreach over the past couple of years has left me very disillusioned with a lot of things and people I thought that I could trust and I know that I'm not alone. If the things this church are espousing are true and as Biblical as humanly possible, then I am willing to accept them even if some things are antithetical to what is familiar to me. This is NOT deconstruction, rather REconstruction which I am undergoing. I must reconsolidate my understanding of the Bible. It could be that this church is borderline cultish and ironically several congregants are ex-cult members OR perhaps my family, although well intentioned have been wrong the whole time. Please note that my family are fine with me attending this church and in fact have been kindly driving me there and home as I'm still just learning to drive. My folks would also give Alex a lift to the bus stop but it seems the church elders have given him a talkfest in his ears about the threat of my family since he has recently been purposely declining our lifts and "Staying longer for fellowship with the other young men". I think it was because my parents tried to speak to him about the complementarianism and dating issue probably and challenge the church stance. Curiously he came over to my house with my family to teach me something recently and we thought he would stay for dinner but he left just before dinner when my mother had kindly cooked him a meal as he was "Trying to have an earlier sleep schedule." I've noticed a change in his personality and he sounds more and more like a carbon copy of the other men at church: stoic and argumentative. He calls it being 'sobered' but in actual fact, I think the poor fellow is very easily manipulated and reading between the lines doesn't come naturally to him. I'll be honest, I have struggled with that too. You see, we are both socially like the blind leading the blind thanks to this double edged sword called autism. Usually what happens, like in a video game, you max out on talent but have 0 social skills but for me I have maybe 1 in socials skills and 0 in talent it seems but hey that's just another issue I'm dealing with to add to the pile, yay.

Nonetheless, I am thankful that God is providing me with a necessity to buckle down and conscientiously study to show myself approved.

Please pray for me also that this will not drive a wedge between my family and I during this time of intense searching

WOW! I can relate! I was raised in a definitely non-Christian home, but always encouraged to do research.We weren't taught social skills by our divorced mother who enjoyed only male friends. I think autism may have run in the family as well as being argumentative with others. I convinced my future husband to join the Mormon church that I had joined in high school prior to internet days. We attended an Arminian (Wesleyan church) after escaping Mormonism. Unable to afford a private Christian school, we were fooled into sending our kids to a Reformed Baptist school. The public schools were becoming almost anti-Christian. The Reformed Baptist school was very, very small, no tuition, but not good. My children hated that experience and hate Calvinism. Long story short---I suggest you find another church. Be careful of those as strict as the one you're in. I'm not going to recommend a specific denomination. I tend to lean towards Calvinism; my late husband never did and wouldn't discuss the Bible with me at all.

 

[Rescued One]

ok that's a problem right there.

The Christian rule of life is not "woke" it is "Love your neighbor as yourself and leave politics out of it".



Good for you. We are called to be salt and light in the world no matter that Satan blinds the eyes of mankind all around us.



Ok so far so good.



Same with me - and I have studied it a lot as well as discussing this point by the hours with Calvinists.

in John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" --- that is not supposed to happen in 5 point Calvinism. If God sovereignly chooses you as "His own" you don't have the option of "nope. Not going to happen ".

In Is 5:4 "What MORE was there to do than that which I have already done? WHY then when I expected good fruit did my garden produce bad fruit?"

Calvinism has no good way to explain why God is asking a question that every Calvinist knows the answer to ... namely "you forgot to mind-zap them the way you do when you sovereignly expect something good from a human".

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" and yet in Matt 7 it is only "The FEW" that go to heaven - not the MANY.



Paul is not the last Apostle to die -- John is. He was imprisoned in the 90's and then when released he returned to Ephesus and wrote the Gospel of John.

Even so - no Bible text in OT or NT said "only Apostles have spiritual gifts" and in 1 Cor 14 Paul says all of the people in Corinth were having revelations from God.



So I agree with them on this point above - not because God is not in the business of doing that - but because almost all of the popular forms of it do not fit the Bible model. Sola scriptura testing for everything - that is what the Bible teaches.



People like Deborah were "judges in Israel".
No NT text says "Women can teach a man unless he comes to their house". The NT texts on that point relate to a woman taking authority from her husband and it does not give a man men authority over every man's wife simply because she is a woman.

Having said that I am very comfortable having men pastors - but I prefer to have sound Bible reasons before tossing a woman under the bus based on gender alone.



I agree with you -- both sides in that are somewhat in error .



When two people are of the age to get married they need to be careful about dating so it is always a blessing to both and there are no regrets. The entire time you are dating ask yourself this question - if tomorrow we happen to break up - and then the next week I find the love of my life and marry him - would have I have any regrets about this current relationship?

If the answer is "no! In fact I would praise God for the blessings I am receiving in this relationship - then you are probably ok".

Anti-Calvinism means you think you have all the answers. You don't. You misrepresent Calvinism.

 

[BobRyan]

Anti-Calvinism means you think you have all the answers. You don't. You misrepresent Calvinism.

One does not need infinite knowledge about everything to recognize that Calvinism does not pass the sola scriptura test. I know that some Calvinists think that would have to be the case - but it is not at all the case.

Calvinists often claim that anyone who thinks Calvinism is in error on some point - does not understand Calvinism while ignoring the logic being presented to show the error in a given form of Calvinism.

That is not a compelling form of discussion. It is not very convincing as a presentation to someone other than "the choir" in a local Calvinist congregation.

You don't see Spurgeon or Sproul using that line every time they were challenged on something.

 

[Rescued One]

....2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" and yet in Matt 7 it is only "The FEW" that
go to heaven - not the MANY.

Your point? Is the Bible translated correctly?

Ye must be born again.

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Ephesians 2
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

God gives life to people who can't make themselves good.

John 10:4
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Romans 9
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Rescued One]

One does not need infinite knowledge about everything to recognize that Calvinism does not pass the sola scriptura test. I know that some Calvinists think that would have to be the case - but it is not at all the case.

Calvinists often claim that anyone who thinks Calvinism is in error on some point - does not understand Calvinism while ignoring the logic being presented to show the error in a given form of Calvinism.

That is not a compelling form of discussion. It is not very convincing as a presentation to someone other than "the choir" in a local Calvinist congregation.

You don't see Spurgeon or Sproul using that line every time they were challenged on something.

You like to argue. Do you know how many thousands of years Calvinists and Arminians have been arguing? And you claim to be SDA. That means you believe you should be set apart instead of going to church on Sunday like most non-SDA. Every person thinks other denominations or groups are at least slightly wrong.

 

[PloverWing]

If you are going to marry, someone has to pick your spouse. In many ancient cultures, and in some Asian cultures today, marriages are arranged by the parents: your parents pick your spouse (possibly giving the child veto power if the child really doesn't like the match). Most Americans and Australians prefer to pick their own spouses. One thing to decide is which way you want to go on this. If you want to pick your own spouse, then I agree with you that getting to know your potential spouse ahead of time is important. Dating is one good way to do this.

I think that sex is what the anti-dating folks are chiefly worried about. If you don't want to have sex before you're married, then make that clear to your partner. Your partner, if they're worth being with, should respect your sexual boundaries; if they don't, that's a red flag. I don't think Wayne needs to be peeping into your life as you and your partner make this very personal decision.

As to the church and its members, this may be a place where we'll disagree. The attitude towards women in the church you've described is too misogynistic for me. I might worship with them, if there are other things I like about the church, but I wouldn't want to date anyone who's part of that community. I couldn't be in a romantic relationship with someone who holds that view of women. Whether that's true for you, you'll have to decide for yourself.

 

[jintercession]

If you are going to marry, someone has to pick your spouse. In many ancient cultures, and in some Asian cultures today, marriages are arranged by the parents: your parents pick your spouse (possibly giving the child veto power if the child really doesn't like the match). Most Americans and Australians prefer to pick their own spouses. One thing to decide is which way you want to go on this. If you want to pick your own spouse, then I agree with you that getting to know your potential spouse ahead of time is important. Dating is one good way to do this.

I think that sex is what the anti-dating folks are chiefly worried about. If you don't want to have sex before you're married, then make that clear to your partner. Your partner, if they're worth being with, should respect your sexual boundaries; if they don't, that's a red flag. I don't think Wayne needs to be peeping into your life as you and your partner make this very personal decision.

As to the church and its members, this may be a place where we'll disagree. The attitude towards women in the church you've described is too misogynistic for me. I might worship with them, if there are other things I like about the church, but I wouldn't want to date anyone who's part of that community. I couldn't be in a romantic relationship with someone who holds that view of women. Whether that's true for you, you'll have to decide for yourself.

I am aware that premarital sex is sinful and made it clear to Alex that I did not want us to be in a situation where we were alone together in a secluded space. My standards are based on the Bible and remain the same. All I wanted was for us to just be able to have one on one conversations with eachother in a public space (eg. coffee shop) which Wayne and the elders seem to object to. Wayne wants to listen to our conversations so he can correct us if there is any hint of error or heresy. This concerns me because it elevates Wayne to almost a God status. This church is reacting out of fear and on the basis of total depravity.

 

[Paidiske]

That your church wants to be so controlling of your personal relationships is a great big red flag for spiritual abuse.

Quite apart from any other issues (and I see plenty) that alone would be enough for me to suggest that you be very careful how much control you allow them to take.

 

[Tolworth John]

Please pray for me also that this will not drive a wedge between my family and I during this time of intense searching

In your opening paragraph you said, ' most where from Janes's church.' Do you know which churches the other people attend?
Could you check those churches out, on line or in person?

There are some questions you could ask of the leaders in Janes church.

What are theresafeguarding processes? that is, a mother complains to the church about inapropriate touching to her child. How does the church respond?
Let them talk and add, the accused is the pastors son, how do they respond?

hey are against dating, so a couple follow their instructions, marry and are having real problems. How do they support that couple?
Add the husband is physically abusive. How do they help?

how many marriages have they had in the church while this no dating rule is inforce?
Could you talk to the last couple who got married about how they got to know each other.

Talk to this guy, boyfriend, and put it on the line his behaviour has been rude towards your parents, remind him Jesus was a friend to sinners and ask him where does he want the relationship to go?

 

[Joined2krist]

Personally, i think if you don't want to be brainwashed you shouldn't put yourself in a risky situation.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hi everyone who decides to read this!!
Lucky you, you're in for a treat...

The church I grew up in (Baptist/Pentecostal) started going woke and seeker sensitive and it turned out to be worse than I thought... Perhaps it was gradually creeping in and I just didn't realize it. Upon participating in lifegroups as well, I was growing dissatisfied with the spiritual food I was receiving, it definitely seemed like it was missing something and there was something wishy-washy, feel good and superficial about our discussions. The rest of my family still go there.

I have a Christian conservative group chat for those who uphold Biblical truth and one of my friends from this group chat, Jane (placeholder name) had a birthday party which I attended. At this party I was astonished to meet many other likeminded young Christian conservatives. (We are like needles in a haystack amongst the progressive and apostate majority) Naturally, I asked where she knew all these people from and apparently most of them were from her church and that the congregants of her church would agree with what was said in our group chat, so Jane invited me to her church. Among these friends was a handsome and extremely talented young man who I found a real rapport with. Let's call him Alex and leave him for a moment.

So to begin with, Jane's church was a Reformed Baptist church and very different to the churches I'd grown up in my whole life (in spite of the Baptist title). I thought my family and I were the most conservative Christians in town but apparently not. This church were staunchly Calvinist and frequently reference Calvin and the Westminister Confession, whereas I was raised Arminian and my whole family are Arminian. Honestly, theology was never really discussed at home or at church so I am now intensly wrestling with this by reading books on soteriology, God's divine providence and I will not call myself a Calvinist until I read at leas one of Calvin's works and am convinced that his hermeneutical approach is Biblical. My main issue with Calvinism is the implied ascribement of authorship of sin to God which fundamentally conflicts with his character. Like I said though, I need to read Calvin and maybe some Spurgeon and Sproul to see what he's going on about and then tackle those tough verses like Romans 9.

Jane's church are not necessarily cessasionalist per se but disagree with neo-apostolic gifts on the premise that Paul was the last apostle and every prophecy is already revealed in the Bible. Elders and congregants are very skeptical of God speaking in dreams and healing miracles nowadays. Instead, an academic, intellectual, expositional faith and apologetics is prioritized and emphasized as not to fall into heretical beliefs. Several congregants favourite pastime seems to be criticizing pentecostal churches.

The church is strictly complementarian based on 2nd Timothy to the point of the pastor declaring that female pastors will all go to hell if they don't repent and stop preaching. I think this is the point that my family take most issue with viewing it as misogynist and unbiblical. The pastor explained that the role differences are clear in Genesis and that the judges, leaders and prophetesses like Deborah, Esther, Priscilla, Anna, Junia etc. were only doing it privately in their home or something (?) My family is concerned I am being brainwashed by the church into abuse and meanwhile Jane is concerned that I am seeing the Bible through a biased lense of feminism when in actual fact I believe feminism is one of the leading factors of the downfall of Western civilisation.

Remember Alex, the handsome and impeccably talented young man I mentioned before who attends this church? Well, after a couple months of seeing eachother at church, he asked if I would like to be his girlfriend after one of the weekly lifegroup meetings and of course I said yes!! Little did I know that the lifegroup leader and one of the prominent church elders (Let's call him Wayne) has some very strong opinions, one of those being an anti-dating stance. After church and the night before the lunch date in the city with Alex, I went to a cafe with some of the congregants and Wayne told me "It's not too late to cancel the date!" I soon learned that Wayne was not alone in this stance and that several other congregants subscribed tightly to this view and have tried to confront me about this particular issue repeatedly. Jane even told me that "Dating is enjoying the benefits of marriage without the covenant." Jane suggested we 'Put brakes on the relationship' and instead, Alex and I are only to see eachother at church events and never individually (even in a public space) until we are basically engaged and about to get married. Wayne doesn't even want us sitting together or talking to eachother too much at church. (SO HOW DO WE GET TO KNOW EACHOTHER? HELLO??) I posed the question of how this is Biblical and all the responses I got were about how this is a safeguard from temptation and lust. Personally I think it is foolish to marry someone you barely know but Wayne seems totally enamored with the story of Ruth and Boaz as well as Martin Luther who apparently got engaged and married on the same day and didn't even feel any affection for the first five years! I think this is mostly a fear-based reaction to the ungodly dating culture which is so prevalent in society today.

In conclusion, while this church has many merits and is the only church I have found in my area to preach with such conviction and boldness to speak out against hot topics such as abortion, transgenderism, homosexuality and the congregants are more well versed in theology than the average Christian, I have some serious reservations. Spiritual abuse followed up later by traumatic government, big tech, big pharma overreach over the past couple of years has left me very disillusioned with a lot of things and people I thought that I could trust and I know that I'm not alone. If the things this church are espousing are true and as Biblical as humanly possible, then I am willing to accept them even if some things are antithetical to what is familiar to me. This is NOT deconstruction, rather REconstruction which I am undergoing. I must reconsolidate my understanding of the Bible. It could be that this church is borderline cultish and ironically several congregants are ex-cult members OR perhaps my family, although well intentioned have been wrong the whole time. Please note that my family are fine with me attending this church and in fact have been kindly driving me there and home as I'm still just learning to drive. My folks would also give Alex a lift to the bus stop but it seems the church elders have given him a talkfest in his ears about the threat of my family since he has recently been purposely declining our lifts and "Staying longer for fellowship with the other young men". I think it was because my parents tried to speak to him about the complementarianism and dating issue probably and challenge the church stance. Curiously he came over to my house with my family to teach me something recently and we thought he would stay for dinner but he left just before dinner when my mother had kindly cooked him a meal as he was "Trying to have an earlier sleep schedule." I've noticed a change in his personality and he sounds more and more like a carbon copy of the other men at church: stoic and argumentative. He calls it being 'sobered' but in actual fact, I think the poor fellow is very easily manipulated and reading between the lines doesn't come naturally to him. I'll be honest, I have struggled with that too. You see, we are both socially like the blind leading the blind thanks to this double edged sword called autism. Usually what happens, like in a video game, you max out on talent but have 0 social skills but for me I have maybe 1 in socials skills and 0 in talent it seems but hey that's just another issue I'm dealing with to add to the pile, yay.

Nonetheless, I am thankful that God is providing me with a necessity to buckle down and conscientiously study to show myself approved.

Please pray for me also that this will not drive a wedge between my family and I during this time of intense searching

A couple points I'd like to make. First - I'm reformed also, although reasonably new to the faith (will be 8 years in a couple months).

I see the reformed tradition as accurate, or mostly accurate. I'm not the cessationist that others are, but experience isn't something that can be described to anyone, and isn't something upon which to base our faith; instead we base/ground our faith in Biblical truths, so cessationists don't both me even though I'm not one.

Other than that, not allowing you and the gentleman time to get to know one another is probably fairly extreme - but you can talk with him one on one over the internet without sin - so try that so you can get to know him better.

The church doesn't sound like a cult, just sounds like a good church overall, though it may have small faults - which you'll find anywhere.

In the end, you aren't likely to find a church where you agree with every single thing - you just want one where you agree with most or the most important parts.

Reformed theology doesn't blame God for sin - look up compatiblism here:

Compatibilism | Monergism
^^^ article here.

As we learn more about the faith we have a tendency to grow, so don't be bothered by having spent time with a different understanding of the faith.

Good luck to you, and happy reading and learning!

ETA (edit to add): Addendum:

My church doesn't stress Calvin perse, but if yours does then you should read Calvin's Institutes. It's probably considered required reading, but not read as authoritative so much as for the fact it's part of reformed tradition and in his time and his place Calvin was a respected teacher, much as many others were also.

However, before reading the Institutes I think you should peruse a good systematic theology - My recommendation is for Wayne Grudems Systematic Theology; An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine After that you'll want to go through the confessions.

 

[Bobber]

I am aware that premarital sex is sinful and made it clear to Alex that I did not want us to be in a situation where we were alone together in a secluded space. My standards are based on the Bible and remain the same. All I wanted was for us to just be able to have one on one conversations with eachother in a public space (eg. coffee shop) which Wayne and the elders seem to object to. Wayne wants to listen to our conversations so he can correct us if there is any hint of error or heresy. This concerns me because it elevates Wayne to almost a God status. This church is reacting out of fear and on the basis of total depravity.

There is NO QUESTION about it. Your church leaders are absolutely wrong that is if they're standing against you two coming together in a very wise way in a public place. They've taken their own personal conviction and are putting it over the people as a law to THEIR conscience. Wrong, wrong. I suspect they're not even the type to even entertain a scriptural rebuttal to their position it seems they're to entrenched in a way of thinking like their thoughts are like a divine edict. FACT IS....the Bible DOES NOT forbid or encourage what we call dating or courting, and you won't even find it in the law of Moses! No where!

What we do see in scripture are warnings in regard to not falling into youthful lusts etc and I most certainly would exhort a couple not to put yourself into the place where temptation could cause them to fall and that would be being in a house or private place alone. I actually was in private places along with my wife before marriage but we never fell into the sin of having ultimate intimacy but looking back I wouldn't recommend people allow themselves to get so close to temptation. Even if you did meet in a private place even then it's not actual sin but it might not be the wisest thing to do.

Your church leaders are putting the pedal to the metal and feel they have a place not to just exhort you but almost command you not to come together at all? If that's the case that's cult like leadership and I'd be kind but say, "Dear brothers I'm sorry but I don't believe any spiritual leader has any such scriptural oversight authority to even speak to me about this issue in the way you are doing. If you gave me an admonishment to be careful and seek to use wisdom fine but a law over my consciousness to bring me under condemnation NO I won't accept that." Now if they said one word about not being submissive to their leadership then that would be it for me. I'd tell them unfortunately it's therefore time for me to move on and that I wish them all the best.

It would be good to look for someplace to fellowship with other Christians though and don't think you've sinned if you even periodically get together with some members of that church for fellowship at your home or whatever. Remember that even members of churches don't agree with everything their leadership thinks about all things and no need for your bonds of friendship to be gone with others due to some people's convictions. That is their convictions. Your friends have theirs's and you have yours. At times even leadership of churches come around and could talk to you later saying they've rethought the whole way they think about this issue and your dating is now fine but they'd encourage you to use wisdom. I have seen this with other issues through the years.

 

[Rescued One]

Lots of churches and I believe in total depravity. That's not the problem. Get away from that church! They are controlling and don't respect women. Don't let that guy influence you anymore; he shouldn't be listening to them.